First it was casinos, then aquariums and now right-to-work legislation. They're all just parlor tricks that create jobs within one jurisdiction by sucking them from another. And, as the OP notes, they're essentially unsustainable because they rely on a workforce that cannot afford the product they're selling.
I'm hoping that America's last stand will be something more noble than this and agriculture ETFs.
Stephen Dawson wrote: I am wondering what the SB wisdom is.
I go along with Henry Ford. He wanted his employees to be able to buy the cars that they built.
Now Michigan is going with "right to work" legislation.
Does 200 million at minimum wage and on food stamps make a country strong?
It's not that simple. We could boost minimum wage to $25 an hour and that wouldn't instantly make everyone middle class. Not only would costs of goods go up but exports would fall dramatically.
I think there are problems on both ends - many make too little, some make too much. Moderation seems like a good thing.
And none of that has to do with Michigan becoming a "Right to Work" state.
Minimum wage legislation doesn't work. Not long term. It's non-functional.
Of course, it isn't very hard to show that people who bring value to companies get paid real value.
As an example, mid and high-level management in China today are making salaries similar to those paid in the USA. Why? Because the market is very competitive for people with those skills, and because they can demonstrate that they bring an ROI to the company far in excess of that cost.
Being an interchangeable part is not how to get real compensation. Being the best at what you do and doing something in demand? That will get you real compensation.
Instinct Images wrote: How about you start by defining what a fair wage is?
Living wage is a nice start.
I also don't believe that majority of a companies payroll should be sucked up by a few CEOs. Everyone works to make a company successful and they should all benefit from that success, not just a few people. If there is enough to go around, spread it around. It's the same Henry Ford mindset.
I also don't believe that majority of a companies payroll should be sucked up by a few CEOs. Everyone works to make a company successful and they should all benefit from that success, not just a few people. If there is enough to go around, spread it around. It's the same Henry Ford mindset.
Does everyone deserve a living wage? For example, does a 16 year old kid delivering newspapers deserve a living wage? Does that same kid deserve it if he's flipping burgers at McDonalds? What about a retired senior working part-time at WalMart?
Is a living wage the same everywhere or do we vary it by city, state, even neighborhood?
I also don't believe that majority of a companies payroll should be sucked up by a few CEOs. Everyone works to make a company successful and they should all benefit from that success, not just a few people. If there is enough to go around, spread it around. It's the same Henry Ford mindset.
As someone pointed out in another thread, anyone that is working today, even in the lowest wage job, has access to credit that means they can buy far more than one of Henry Ford's workers could ever imagine.
Does everyone deserve a living wage? For example, does a 16 year old kid delivering newspapers deserve a living wage? Does that same kid deserve it if he's flipping burgers at McDonalds? What about a retired senior working part-time at WalMart?
Is a living wage the same everywhere or do we vary it by city, state, even neighborhood?
everyone should have a phat ass car, big screen TV, Xbox/ps3 and a big ass house equally
Stephen Dawson wrote: Does that make America strong?
Some would say yes, some no.
With no minimum wage the youth unemployment rate, especially in minority communities, would be lower.
With no minimum wage there would be more incentive to stay in school and more importantly learn while there so that you would be qualified for a good job.
With no minimum wage more new businesses would start. Some would grow and prosper and pay more for skilled, loyal employees.
With no minimum wage the job market would be expanded to include the disabled, elderly and those only looking for some income to supplement what they or their family have.
With no minimum wage more people would enjoy the self esteem of working and contributing to society and yes even maybe paying taxes.
I think if you look at the economies of States with Right to Work laws vs strong unions it is clear which ones are doing better.
I think all of those things make the country stronger from a monetary, cultural and moral POV.
Monad Studios
Posts: 8,948
Santa Rosa, California, US
Wages are a reflection of labor productivity. The evidence is that governments can impose modest minimum wages to the benefit of the poorest workers without greater harm.
But any larger attempt to make wages "fair" or to make them adhere to any other non-market standard will reduce productivity and thus reduce real wealth and income. It won't even redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor.
I also don't believe that majority of a companies payroll should be sucked up by a few CEOs. Everyone works to make a company successful and they should all benefit from that success, not just a few people. If there is enough to go around, spread it around. It's the same Henry Ford mindset.
A government mandated living wage is impossible. Even if you can establish a number for what constitutes a living wage, if you make that the minimum, it will be inflationary. The bar for "living wage" will continue to rise and the mandate will have to be constantly recalculated. It's a dog chasing it's tail.
Daniels Light
Posts: 4,911
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
MN Photography wrote: A government mandated living wage is impossible. Even if you can establish a number for what constitutes a living wage, if you make that the minimum, it will be inflationary. The bar for "living wage" will continue to rise and the mandate will have to be constantly recalculated. It's a dog chasing it's tail.
Of course, the opposite is also true - without minimum wage, we could have companies bidding off jobs with lower and lower wages ...
... say, Bob. We know you want this job and it pays $7.50 an hour. But now that we no longer have a minimum wage, Joe says he'll take it for $7.00. Could you come down to $6.75?
... say, Joe. We know you want this job, but Bob says he'll take it for $6.75 an hour...
... say, Fred. The last bid on the job is $6.50 an hour ...
Now you can say that Bob doesn't have to take the job, but you can see that there is a very real possibility that wages would inch downward over time across the board for low end earners and we end up with a third world country with a few wealthy and a bunch of very low earners in the streets.
Now let me ask everyone something. Do people live in the Hamptons because it's inexpensive to live there or because of the of how nice the neighborhood is and damn the cost? Does it make sense to protect the wealthy if the wealthy won't live in the country that is protecting them because the surrounding neighborhood sucks?
Wysiwyg Photography wrote: I have a right to work without having to pay union dues... but those that wish to join a union should do so and I think it is great that they want to.
Not saying I disagreeing w/ you but playing devil's advocate, they'd say you receive the wages & benefits & job dignity & fight on your behalf w/ management. So why shouldn't your union dues go to them?
Al Lock Photography wrote: As someone pointed out in another thread, anyone that is working today, even in the lowest wage job, has access to credit that means they can buy far more than one of Henry Ford's workers could ever imagine.
Access to it is one thing. Getting approved for it is a completely different matter.
Just ask anyone who has a full-time job, steady income, consistent work history who has tried to apply for a mortage since 2009.
Not saying I disagreeing w/ you but playing devil's advocate, they'd say you receive the wages & benefits & job dignity & fight on your behalf w/ management. So why shouldn't your union dues go to them?
Unions are no different than any other power structure. They can do some good, but ultimately they can become corrupt if not kept in check.
Daniels Light
Posts: 4,911
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
Lightcraft Studio wrote:
Unions are no different than any other power structure. They can do some good, but ultimately they can become corrupt if not kept in check.
But in a world without Unions, we saw that the "power structure" of large corporations will become corrupt without the check of organized labor.
Workers around the world didn't just wake up one day and say, "Oh ... let's start a union for fun ..." and the forces that created the need still exist today.
It could be argued that the decline of America's middle-class has followed the decline of unions.
But in a world without Unions, we saw that the "power structure" of large corporations will become corrupt without the check of organized labor.
Workers around the world didn't just wake up one day and say, "Oh ... let's start a union for fun ..." and the forces that created the need still exist today.
It could be argued that the decline of America's middle-class has followed the decline of unions.
So, you believe that the stronger the union, the better? Do you think that union leadership is somehow immune to becoming corrupt?
If you re-read my post, I suggest that unions can serve a useful function, but if they get out of control they can kill off their host... as we sometimes see when they force employers out of business altogether.
studio36uk
Posts: 20,229
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna
OMarkcompa wrote:
Little Queenie wrote: Living wage is a nice start.
So you think that every position offered should be a living wage?
Factored on a 40 hour week - - - YES!!! And THAT is just the starting point. Including the, so called, minimum wage jobs.
Many years ago, and I admit i have no idea how it might be now, when I lived in Washington state, that state set a state minimum wage in an hourly amount HIGHER than the federal minimum wage. Employers were required, in that state, to pay the higher state amount.
One might very well consider that as a local adjustment upwards to the national rate and taking account of the state's own particular assessment of the local cost of living.
Daniels Light
Posts: 4,911
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
Lightcraft Studio wrote:
So, you believe that the stronger the union, the better? Do you think that union leadership is somehow immune to becoming corrupt?
If you re-read my post, I suggest that unions can serve a useful function, but if they get out of control they can kill off their host... as we sometimes see when they force employers out of business altogether.
Never said unions cannot become corrupt - but wouldn't regulations controlling that corruption be more beneficial than outlawing the rights of workers to collectively bargain?
I believe that properly structured, unions provide the counter-balance to America becoming a land of serfs and lords. An America with a strong middle-class. What's wrong with that?
Little Queenie wrote: Living wage is a nice start.
OMarkcompa wrote: So you think that every position offered should be a living wage?
studio36uk wrote: Factored on a 40 hour week - - - YES!!! And THAT is just the starting point. Including the, so called, minimum wage jobs.
Many years ago, and I admit i have no idea how it might be now, when I lived in Washington state, that state set a state minimum wage in an hourly amount HIGHER than the federal minimum wage. Employers were required, in that state, to pay the higher state amount.
One might very well consider that as a local adjustment upwards to the national rate and taking account of the state's own particular assessment of the local cost of living.
I believe that every worker has a right to work without paying union dues unless he or she wishes to voluntarily pay them based on the value he or she sees the union providing him/her.
Is that not every freeman's right?
Unfortunately, there are many states that enforce legislation that require employees who work in union facilities to pay dues to unions even of they don't wish to. Sad that we as a society would force some members of our society to take money out of their pockets to join an orgainization that they do not wish to join.
Of course, the opposite is also true - without minimum wage, we could have companies bidding off jobs with lower and lower wages ...
... say, Bob. We know you want this job and it pays $7.50 an hour. But now that we no longer have a minimum wage, Joe says he'll take it for $7.00. Could you come down to $6.75?
... say, Joe. We know you want this job, but Bob says he'll take it for $6.75 an hour...
... say, Fred. The last bid on the job is $6.50 an hour ...
Now you can say that Bob doesn't have to take the job, but you can see that there is a very real possibility that wages would inch downward over time across the board for low end earners and we end up with a third world country with a few wealthy and a bunch of very low earners in the streets.
Now let me ask everyone something. Do people live in the Hamptons because it's inexpensive to live there or because of the of how nice the neighborhood is and damn the cost? Does it make sense to protect the wealthy if the wealthy won't live in the country that is protecting them because the surrounding neighborhood sucks?
That is already happening... however.. supply and demand play a part in this as well.
If a employer is having a hard time getting someone for the job... they have to up their wage offered.. As some one looking for work... you don't look and stop with one job at a time.. you put in many applications and accept the best one.
With no minimum wage the youth unemployment rate, especially in minority communities, would be lower.
Which would encourage them to stay in school and learn something. With their working parents getting a good wage, staying in school becomes easier to do.
Robert Helm wrote: With no minimum wage more new businesses would start. Some would grow and prosper and pay more for skilled, loyal employees.
No motivation to start new businesses if the existing big companies have all the good labor already and pay them decently.
Robert Helm wrote: With no minimum wage the job market would be expanded to include the disabled, elderly and those only looking for some income to supplement what they or their family have.
We already have that with minimum wages in effect.
Robert Helm wrote: With no minimum wage more people would enjoy the self esteem of working and contributing to society and yes even maybe paying taxes.
How does one get self-esteem if the labor market doesn't think you're worth a living wage?
Robert Helm wrote: I think if you look at the economies of States with Right to Work laws vs strong unions it is clear which ones are doing better.
Naturally some businesses will migrate to states with where wages are low. How is it that their workers are doing better with lower wages while the capitalists pocket more? That's why we need to raise minimum wage on a national level.
Robert Helm wrote: I think all of those things make the country stronger from a monetary, cultural and moral POV.
There is no inherent morality in the so-called free market for those without bargaining power. We end up with a widening economic spread. A culture of economic slaves is not what I want my children to face.
Not saying I disagreeing w/ you but playing devil's advocate, they'd say you receive the wages & benefits & job dignity & fight on your behalf w/ management. So why shouldn't your union dues go to them?
Why should I be forced to pay a union dues in order to work some place? Explain that.
sublime LightWorks wrote: ...
Why should I be forced to pay a union dues in order to work some place? Explain that.
Did somebody keep dues a secret from you? You accept it when you accept the job. You have the same choice as in states without unions - Take it or leave it. You can take it or leave it in a union state, or you can take it or leave it in a non-union state.
ASYLUM - Photo wrote: Ah, yes. Lets remove minimum wage, unions and social safety nets.
America, and it's economy were in great shape when thats the way things were.
Keep up the sarcasm, funny guy. Soon, without minimum wage you'll be competing against a bunch of other creatives who will do what you do and do it a little cheaper and before you know it I'll be able to buy your services for pennies on the dollar. See how sarcastic you'll be then.
ASYLUM - Photo
Posts: 37,818
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Kincaid Blackwood wrote:
Keep up the sarcasm, funny guy. Soon, without minimum wage you'll be competing against a bunch of other creatives who will do what you do and do it a little cheaper and before you know it I'll be able to buy your services for pennies on the dollar. See how sarcastic you'll be then.
Screw this socialist country, I'm moving to Canada.
ASYLUM - Photo wrote: Screw this socialist country, I'm moving to Canada.
Fear not, this country is quickly turning into a socialist country (on its way to becoming a full-out communist state). Just give it a little more time!
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