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Photographer
In Balance Photography
Posts: 3,370
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Well, after finally getting a printer, I knew I'd run into this. I've long suspected that I've had color issues - here's where I'm at - I'm hoping someone can spot what I'm doing wrong...

Lightroom 4.1
Adobe Photoshop 5.0
Windows 7 Ultimate
Dell 24" IPS Wide Gamut Monitor
Spyder 3 Calibrator
Epson R3000 Printer, printing on Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Matte

Here's my workflow (my avatar is the image in question)
1. Import the NEF (d7000) into Lightroom
2. Edit from lightroom using PS - do all the retouching there.
3. Back to lightroom
4. The image color looks correct to me.
5. Go into proof mode - select the ICC profile for the paper being used - see that some of the lips will exceed the gamut of the printer - use the adjustment brush in lightroom to desaturate a little and the gamut warning goes away.
6. Go into print mode and set up a sheet.
7. Click print with the printer managing the color, and the Epson print preview shows the image with a slight pink tint to it. Printing it out yields was the epson print preview showed (which was different than the lightroom preview).
8. If I click print and don't have the printer manage the color, and instead select the ICC profile associated with the paper, the preview image generated by the epson print dialog looks incredibly magenta. So bad that I have not even printed it.

I'm not sure even how to go about debugging this problem.

Anyone have a pointer or hint for me?
Dec 09 12 10:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leonard Gee Photography
Posts: 16,081
Sacramento, California, US


In Balance Photography wrote:
7. Click print with the printer managing the color, and the Epson print preview shows the image with a slight pink tint to it. Printing it out yields was the epson print preview showed (which was different than the lightroom preview).

I'm not sure even how to go about debugging this problem.

Anyone have a pointer or hint for me?

Almost all color workflows I've seen recommend "allow photoshop" to manage color.

Don't waste paper. Just as with negatives and enlargers, print smaller size test prints with the important and relevant areas to tweak the color.

Generic ICC profiles may get you close, but for critical work, you must use your own calibrated profiles.

Dec 09 12 10:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Frozen Instant Imagery
Posts: 3,639
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


In Balance Photography wrote:
Well, after finally getting a printer, I knew I'd run into this. I've long suspected that I've had color issues - here's where I'm at - I'm hoping someone can spot what I'm doing wrong...

Lightroom 4.1
Adobe Photoshop 5.0
Windows 7 Ultimate
Dell 24" IPS Wide Gamut Monitor
Spyder 3 Calibrator
Epson R3000 Printer, printing on Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Matte

Here's my workflow (my avatar is the image in question)
1. Import the NEF (d7000) into Lightroom
2. Edit from lightroom using PS - do all the retouching there.
3. Back to lightroom
4. The image color looks correct to me.
5. Go into proof mode - select the ICC profile for the paper being used - see that some of the lips will exceed the gamut of the printer - use the adjustment brush in lightroom to desaturate a little and the gamut warning goes away.
6. Go into print mode and set up a sheet.
7. Click print with the printer managing the color, and the Epson print preview shows the image with a slight pink tint to it. Printing it out yields was the epson print preview showed (which was different than the lightroom preview).
8. If I click print and don't have the printer manage the color, and instead select the ICC profile associated with the paper, the preview image generated by the epson print dialog looks incredibly magenta. So bad that I have not even printed it.

I'm not sure even how to go about debugging this problem.

Anyone have a pointer or hint for me?

You say you select the profile associated with the paper. I've always had to select the profile for the printer + paper combination.

Also, I have to let Photoshop manage the colour, with the printer's colour management turned off - I got some awful prints (mine were green, not magenta, though) when I left the printer colour management on. BTW: you have to turn the printer colour management off in the printer software (print driver) - if you don't, then any colour corrections get done twice.

If it's any comfort, I was told that almost everyone makes this mistake smile

Dec 09 12 12:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,749
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


1 - Is your monitor calibrated
2 - Are you using the printer profile provided by the manufacturer

If the answer to those two questions are not YES, then no advice anyone can give you here is going to help.

For printing, browse here: http://www.eci.org/en/start
Dec 09 12 02:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RacerXPhoto
Posts: 2,460
Brooklyn, New York, US


Really good tutorial on color mangement issues coming up that might help
http://www.macgroupus.com/xrite/webinar … 12012.html

If you dont want to wait they have past sessions you can view
http://xritephoto.com/ph_learning.aspx? … arsarchive

If you prefer reading the manual like I do
http://xritephoto.com/documents/literat … ent_EN.pdf
Dec 09 12 02:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rickspix
Posts: 1,302
Vallejo, California, US


your problem is having the epson printer manage the color

click "off no color management"
Dec 09 12 02:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carlos Ignacio M
Posts: 21
Houston, Texas, US


If after calibrating the monitor and printer does not work it could be the choice of "color space" that Lightroom uses for "external editing".

It seems that you are opening PS as the external editor and what I suggest is to go to Lightroom then click on the Edit > Preferences > External Editing > and then click on the downward arrow of Color Space.

There are three choices and Lightroom recommends using ProPhoto RGB but this Color Space far exceeds the color gamut that can be printed. Sometimes the colors that you see in your monitor can be printed but sometimes it causes color shifts.

Try testing the three Color Spaces in the External Editing that is used to open the file in Photoshop.

Good luck.
Dec 09 12 03:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Pictus
Posts: 961
Teresópolis, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil


Soft Proofing with Lightroom 4
http://digitaldog.net/files/LR4_softproof.mov
http://digitaldog.net/files/LR4_softproof2.mov

---

http://www.colourphil.co.uk/images/CS6-print.jpg
From http://www.colourphil.co.uk/photoshop-cs6-print.html
Color Handling:  This is very important as it defines where colour management is applied:

Photoshop Manages Colors, aka 'Application Colour Management', is the mode used by most experienced users, being the normal way of printing using custom printer profiles. You will need to be able to access your printer's profiles, and to know which is the correct one for your printer, and the correct media type. This is not so easy with many printer drivers with the generic printer profiles. This mode gives you access to the superior Adobe Color Engine, with it's better choice of Rendering Intents, etc., compared to most printer drivers. Note the warning to disable the printer's colour management.
Note the yellow exclamation mark warning you to turn off 'Color Management' in the printer settings. This is there for a very good reason! You don't want 'double' Colour Management!
You can also preview the results before printing.

Printer Color Management will shift colour transformations to the printer and it's driver. This is the usual mode if you have a RIP, which is actually a very sophisticated printer driver. If you print CMYK images it is vital to use a RIP.
If you use the regular driver which came with your inkjet printer, then this mode should be avoided if you are seeking accurate colour, as you may have little control over colour management. If you do use this mode, you must turn ON 'Color Management', aka 'ColorSync' in a Mac, or 'ICM' in Windows, in your printer driver menu.

NOTE: No Color Management: This mode is history, having disappeared with CS5. One reason is that it cannot work correctly under Mac OS X with RGB images, owing to bugs in Apple's ColorSync software, and possibly future versions of Windows.The most common usage was to send profiling colour targets (such as ours) to the printer. These must be printed without colour management. The workaround is to use the Adobe Color Printing Utility (available free from Adobe's site). The other popular workaround of 'null profile' will not work in CS6, giving an error message.

----

Some good info here http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?threa … st17803358

---

The Spyder 3 does not calibrate wide gamut well sad
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Cali … dware.html

IF your monitor is the DEll U2410, check how to calibrate well
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/con … alibration
Dec 09 12 03:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Williams Photo
Posts: 3,067
Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin, US


rickspix wrote:
your problem is having the epson printer manage the color

click "off no color management"

Yep, more than likely this is  your problem.  I'm assuming you've calibrated your monitor and are using ICC profiles you've created yourself.  You need to manage your system...not just the printer.

Dec 09 12 03:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TRENT FETFAN
Posts: 1,024
Chapel Hill, North Carolina, US


if your monitor is calibrated then picking Photoshop Manage Colors setting should give you the same thing on paper which is on your screen. Im not a printer guru but that is what I was taught and it always looks the same for me:)
Dec 09 12 03:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
In Balance Photography
Posts: 3,370
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Thanks so much for the tips!

I am using a calibrated monitor - but it looks like there are a half dozen things I can try out - including getting done smaller paper sizes for test images .
Dec 09 12 04:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RacerXPhoto
Posts: 2,460
Brooklyn, New York, US


In Balance Photography wrote:
Thanks so much for the tips!

I am using a calibrated monitor - but it looks like there are a half dozen things I can try out - including getting done smaller paper sizes for test images .

If you have time look at the links I sent
Could pay off in the long run
"Teach a man to fish" etc

Dec 09 12 06:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Allen Carbon
Posts: 957
Wellington, Wellington, New Zealand


sometimes something as simple as turning your image to CMYK will show a closer result to print.
Dec 09 12 09:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,749
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Dec 09 12 09:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photoimager
Posts: 4,803
Stoke-on-Trent, England, United Kingdom


OP, if I'm reading your post correctly you are double profiling. If you double profile things will go 'wierd'. Either use colour management in the photo software or the printer interface, not both. With my Dye-sub printer I usually set the printer to manage the colour and turn off colour management in the photo software, it works better that way. When I'm using my Epson 3800 then I will manage colour through the photo software and turn off colour management on the printer interface. The exception to this was when I used Epson papers and Epson inks. At that time I managed colour in the printer interface.

As an aside, if your colours are set accurately at capture then, presuming you have not messed about with them in post, the colours will be accurate at output if that device is managed correctly without a need for a profiled monitor. Profiling a monitor is useful but it is not a required step in getting accurate colour output. Managing colour correctly at capture and at output to print are required steps.
Dec 10 12 03:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
In Balance Photography
Posts: 3,370
Boston, Massachusetts, US


RacerXPhoto wrote:

If you have time look at the links I sent
Could pay off in the long run
"Teach a man to fish" etc

Definitely on my list to do.

BTW, I ordered some smaller paper sizes so I can do cheaper test prints. Staples is selling epson papers bogo right now.

Dec 10 12 06:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
In Balance Photography
Posts: 3,370
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Update:

I tried printing from Photoshop and the colors came out fine in preview mode, and on paper. This is using Photoshop managed color, and color management turned off on the printer, and selecting the correct color profile for the printer and the paper.

Printing the same image from Lightroom, with Lightroom managing the color, and the correct paper profile selected, and color management turned off on the printer, yields an image with a lot of magenta - not just a tint.

I'd like to be able to print from Lightroom for those images that I don't end up retouching is PS, as well for it's ability to easily to two-up 9x12 on Super-B.

But I'm happy that I at least have one way to print color correct images - thanks to everyone that replied (and I still have lots of reading and things to try!)
Dec 12 12 04:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
In Balance Photography
Posts: 3,370
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Final Update: Problem Solved.

Here's what finally happened to be the issue - just in case anyone else runs into this.

When having Lightroom or PS manage the color, the Epson driver preview image is just completely wrong, and doesn't reflect what will get printed. So, in my case, I was seeing a horribly magenta image.

Finally, I just said what the heck and printed it out, and voila - the image printed looked like it did in PS or Lightroom.
Dec 16 12 11:47 am  Link  Quote 
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