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Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 862
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


Hello film shooters.

I've been working solidly in 35mm for a while and I think it's time I stepped up to using MF. My question is - what is a good medium format camera for use both in the studio and on location (for model shooting - natch)?

As I'm just experimenting at this point I don't want to drop a huge chunk of money on the top of the line Hasselblad. So I'm thinking something that has a reasonable compromise between cost, image quality and portability.

A waist level viewfinder would be handy too smile

I've been offered an RB67 but that looks like a bit of a heavy beast - possible to use on location?
Dec 10 12 02:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AgX
Posts: 1,147
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


So many options. The RB is a legendary camera with great glass and was the de facto model/fashion weapon of choice for years with good reason. Personally I didn't like the ergonomics for handheld shooting, but that doesn't detract from the fact that you can get big, beautiful negatives. The rotating back is a big bonus.

Many here will say that 645 (6x4.5 cm) is too little a difference in negative size as a jump from 35mm, but I strongly disagree. I find it to be an excellent starting (and landing) point for MF introduction, with many options and minimal cash outlay.

I've owned and shot both Mamiya and Bronica 645 SLR systems. I stayed with the latter, but I don't think you can go wrong with either. With a prism viewefinder (but both have WLF options as well) and a grip, these handle like oversized 35mm SLRs, and you can get them for pennies on the dollar these days. Something like a Pro/Pro TL or an ETRS with a winder and a normal (75/80 mm) and medium tele (I like the 150 mm length for portraits) and you're good to go.

If you buy one and decide you don't like it, you can resell it for what you paid.

Much of my current portfolio was shot with a Bronica ETRSi system.
Dec 10 12 03:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 862
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


Thanks! I like the look of the Bronica 645's (as they're cheap too!) but doesn't look like you can shoot portrait with the wlf sad
Dec 10 12 04:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SAG Photography
Posts: 2,797
Valencia, California, US


Bronica SQ-B,  great camera, low cost now,  6x6 so you shoot square and crop later...  Hassy was that way only for ??? Years.  Rollei also was 6x6.. but no interchangeable lenses.
Dec 10 12 05:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhillipM
Posts: 6,099
Martin, Tennessee, US


I have an RB67 w/3 lenes. 

I love the images that come from it, but it IS A BEAST.  You throw a 180mm on it, and your talking some luggage.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have opted for a lighter, possibly smaller form factor like a blad or Rollei.

When I shoot with my RB, I use the 50mm on it, just to help reduce weight, and even then, I use a tripod.  I don't have a WLF as well.  Another reason why I use the tripod.

Now that I'm hooked on 4x5, not even sure I'll pick the RB up again..

Just my side of things.
Dec 10 12 05:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 862
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


SAG Photography wrote:
Bronica SQ-B,  great camera, low cost now,  6x6 so you shoot square and crop later...  Hassy was that way only for ??? Years.  Rollei also was 6x6.. but no interchangeable lenses.

Hey, I just checked out the Bronica SQ series. Shooting 6x6 and cropping might be a nice idea. I'd prefer 645 if I can get it, but I'm, starting to see the options for portrait (Ie. 4.5 x 6) are pretty limited.

Anyways, the Bronica looks kinda of big too. Do you know how is compares in weight and portability to the RB?

Dec 10 12 05:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jhono Bashian
Posts: 2,427
Cleveland, Ohio, US


You can find a good deal on a 500c/m w/ waist level finder, 80mm and a 120 film back. That rig fits in your hand beautifully, its still a top of the line camera system and coupled with Carl Zeiss glass, you cant go wrong.  I shoot with mine all the time and I invested in Phase One back. AD's love the square images too.   
You can find some good deals on eBay or poke around on camera wholesalers.
Dec 10 12 05:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kaouthia
Posts: 3,152
Lancaster, England, United Kingdom


intense puppy wrote:
Thanks! I like the look of the Bronica 645's (as they're cheap too!) but doesn't look like you can shoot portrait with the wlf sad

You can, it's just potentially awkward.

If you're using a waist level finder, you're holding the camera up sideways, and looking at your scene & subject upside down.

If you're using a prism viewfinder, it's a doddle.

Dec 10 12 06:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AgX
Posts: 1,147
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Jhono Bashian wrote:
You can find a good deal on a 500c/m w/ waist level finder, 80mm and a 120 film back. That rig fits in your hand beautifully, its still a top of the line camera system and coupled with Carl Zeiss glass, you cant go wrong.  I shoot with mine all the time and I invested in Phase One back. AD's love the square images too.

True, but it's harder to justify the cost of a 'Blad system to someone who clearly wants to dip their toes in on the cheap. The bare bones system you detail is going to be somewhere between 2 and 4 times the price of a Bronica SQ or ETRS system. A12, A16, or A24 backs are not cheap. I bought a boxed 150/4 PE lens from KEH LN- for $160; a 150/4 C T* is likely double that or more, and the OP is going to want a portrait lens.

As a disclaimer, I've bought, shot and sold a lot of MF gear, but I've never owned a Hasselblad. Above is the reason why.

Dec 10 12 08:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g461/TyPortfolio/sweetrig.jpg
Dec 10 12 08:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,572
Louisville, Kentucky, US


Hasselblad 500cm with an 80mm and back aren't that expensive. I've seen them around here in fine condition for around $600.00.

http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=999193

90% of these were taken with that combination.
Dec 10 12 08:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 862
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


AgX wrote:
True, but it's harder to justify the cost of a 'Blad system to someone who clearly wants to dip their toes in on the cheap. The bare bones system you detail is going to be somewhere between 2 and 4 times the price of a Bronica SQ or ETRS system.

This pretty much.
I know they're not THAT expensive and if I wanted to I could just sell it back for what I paid, but even so - it's a chunk of cash to lock up into what is just an experiment.

I'm not a gearhead by any means (I shoot on a shitty Pentax K1000 or ME Super mostly) so if I can get something cheaper that'll do the same job (or close) to the big names then I'm happy.

Great suggestions all round in the thread, btw. Thank you everyone smile

Dec 10 12 08:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AgX
Posts: 1,147
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


ArtisticGlamour wrote:
http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g461/TyPortfolio/sweetrig.jpg

I love my Rolleicord and its optics, but lacking interchangeable backs and lens, it has decreased versatility for shooting models, in my opinion.

Ray, are you wedded to the WLF? Shooting square and then cropping means you lose one of the prime advantages of 6x6 over 645: film real estate.

Dec 10 12 08:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony-S
Posts: 1,257
Fort Collins, Colorado, US


The Bronica GS-1 is the smallest and lightest of the 6x7 SLRs. Superb optics based on Nikon designs (but manufactured by Bronica). It's an all-electronic camera with modern in-lens leaf shutters. I carry mine when I'm hiking in the mountain west.

http://www.tamron-usa.com/bronica/prod/gs1.asp
Dec 10 12 08:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 862
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


AgX wrote:
Ray, are you wedded to the WLF? Shooting square and then cropping means you lose one of the prime advantages of 6x6 over 645: film real estate.

Yeah, I really want to try out and get to grips with the wlf. I thinking it'll hopefully help me experiment with my shooting style.
I'm not too worried about cropping 6x6 (if I'm forced to go with 6x6) - yes you're right it is a waste of film (10 photos on a roll vs. 12/13 isn't it?) but then I crop my 35mm scans quite aggressively sometimes too.

Dec 10 12 08:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


AgX wrote:
I love my Rolleicord and its optics, but lacking interchangeable backs and lens, it has decreased versatility for shooting models, in my opinion.

Yup! It's all a tradeoff. But the PC port will sync with a cheap e-bay trigger for multiple off camera lighting, and I couldn't beat the $40 pricetag. Hard to beat for a "starter" MF camera. Or a good "suplimental" MF to toss in the digital camerabag.

intense puppy wrote:
As I'm just experimenting at this point I don't want to drop a huge chunk of money on the top of the line Hasselblad. So I'm thinking something that has a reasonable compromise between cost, image quality and portability.

A waist level viewfinder would be handy too

Probably get into a Rolleicord (6x6) for

Dec 10 12 08:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vector One Photography
Posts: 2,483
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


First you have to decide on format. Do you want 645, 6x6 or 6x7 ?  If you like square there is only one choice. If you want rectangular then decide if you want the smaller or larger negative. Remember, the bigger the negative the bigger the camera.  Then decide if you want interchangeable lenses.

If you pick 6x6 with interchangeable lenses then you can't beat a Hasselblad.  Lenses that were $3,000.00 new can be purchased on eBay for $400.00. There is nothing sharper than a Hasselblad lens.
Dec 10 12 09:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AgX
Posts: 1,147
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


ArtisticGlamour wrote:
Yup! It's all a tradeoff. But the PC port will sync with a cheap e-bay trigger for multiple off camera lighting, and I couldn't beat the $40 pricetag. Hard to beat for a "starter" MF camera. Or a good "suplimental" MF to toss in the digital camerabag.

I _just_ tried this out last week with my Rollei, a cheap PC cord, and my Yongnuo RF602 to see if it I could. Lo and behold, worked like a charm.

My father found my Rolleicord at a garage sale for $25. I would call it the best bang for buck I've experienced, but recently someone on APUG gave me a Pentax 6x7 + 105/2.4 for the promise that I regift it if/when I'm done with it. From the first roll run through that monster:
http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/120921/05/505c612791407_m.jpg

Cheap medium format FTW!

Dec 10 12 09:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ybfoto
Posts: 639
Oakland, California, US


Most of my portfolio is done with Mamiya AF 645...Auto focus, TL metering, cheap lenses, much lighter than the 6x7..I know some will say that 645 isnt that much different than 135 But I as someone who uses both, the difference in results is definitely noticeable. You will obviously be able to enlarge much easier with a 6x6 or 6x7, but the trade off, for me at least wasn't worth the extra latitude in size when printing.
Dec 10 12 09:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,572
Louisville, Kentucky, US


intense puppy wrote:

Yeah, I really want to try out and get to grips with the wlf. I thinking it'll hopefully help me experiment with my shooting style.
I'm not too worried about cropping 6x6 (if I'm forced to go with 6x6) - yes you're right it is a waste of film (10 photos on a roll vs. 12/13 isn't it?) but then I crop my 35mm scans quite aggressively sometimes too.

You get 12 shots on 120 with the Hasselblad.

Dec 10 12 09:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 862
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


MMDesign wrote:

You get 12 shots on 120 with the Hasselblad.

Thanks! I wasn't 100% sure smile

Dec 10 12 10:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
jkcphotography
Posts: 45
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


I like my Pentax 645 works well and they are cheap to buy.....
Dec 10 12 10:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Click Click Click
Posts: 7
Batavia, New York, US


I have a Mamiya RZ67 Pro II, a Hasselblad 500C/M and a Rolleiflex. As well as a problem with buying cameras (looking for a Leica M4 not that I need one)
All of course all are classics. I use each for different applications, all three will do the same thing, except macro for the Rolleiflex. I use the RZ67 for studio and macro work, including macro in the field. For me, the 140mm macro lens with a selection of extender tubes cannot be beat. It is big and the bellows, that works so well for macro, does make it hard to hold in some positions. But if I have space when I travel and a tripod it is my go to camera.
The 500C/M is great for hand held shooting. Fairly light and easy to carry all day. I also use this for macro shots with extension tubes when possible. I just carried mine around England for a week. Because it is a kit camera too, it can be dressed up and down for studio work or anything else. I do carry a spare back with me loaded with a different type, or speed, of film for changing conditions or moods. The 80mm 2.8 lens is very versatile, I like to shoot it wide open quite a bit.
My Rollieflex is a 2.8C. I like having the 2.8 lens over 3.5. It is the lightest of the three and the easiest to carry. I use it as a general purpose carry camera when I plan on only shooting one type of film (typically B&W) Hand held you can shoot it slower than the others because it does not have a mirror slapping up causing more shake. I like it for street photography (Ilford Delta 3200 pushed to 6400 works well for bars and night), people are not threatened by it and because there is not moving mirror it is a little quicker to shoot and catch the scene at the exact right time. It is also very quite.

I started shooting with a Ciro-Flex TLR that was also a good camera, if you want to buy in cheep most of the TLRs still around work great. You will love the look of the larger format. Look around some of the groups on flicker some of the images from these old cameras are amazing.
For me for Fashion, I would use the RZ67
Dec 10 12 10:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
fullmetalphotographer
Posts: 2,536
Fresno, California, US


intense puppy wrote:
Hello film shooters.

I've been working solidly in 35mm for a while and I think it's time I stepped up to using MF. My question is - what is a good medium format camera for use both in the studio and on location (for model shooting - natch)?

As I'm just experimenting at this point I don't want to drop a huge chunk of money on the top of the line Hasselblad. So I'm thinking something that has a reasonable compromise between cost, image quality and portability.

A waist level viewfinder would be handy too smile

I've been offered an RB67 but that looks like a bit of a heavy beast - possible to use on location?

I use to shoot the RZ67 and RB67 both were fine on location weight was not a issue. Later I use Fuji GX680III http://www.dannyburk.com/fuji_gx680iii.htm that weighed more like a B52 but was a awesome camera. I am thinking of converting one to digital. If weight is a major issue then you may want to look at mamiya m645.

Dec 10 12 10:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rick Athearn
Posts: 492
Boulder, Colorado, US


Film Hasselblads (like a 500 series) are pretty cheap these day. You can't beat those Zeiss lenses either.
Dec 10 12 11:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MKPhoto
Posts: 5,664
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


Check this thread. Lot's of advice and discussion

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=804408
Dec 10 12 11:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


I hope this isn't threadjacking but I'm curious, never having worked with film MF, what accessories are required? For example, I'm pricing an RB67 at $150 what else is mandatory? Prism, back, etc.
Dec 10 12 12:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 20,457
Portland, Oregon, US


intense puppy wrote:
Thanks! I like the look of the Bronica 645's (as they're cheap too!) but doesn't look like you can shoot portrait with the wlf sad

My first medium format camera was a Bronica ETR (645).  It was fine -- it had lots of options, including a thingy that attached to the eyepiece for waist level focusing, a speed grip for 35mm film advancing (thought you had to pump it twice to advance one frame) -- the speed grip also included a hot shoe; you could even get motorized film advance.  The best news is that the glass was excellent.

But to be honest, I didn't stay on the 645 for long -- I moved up to the Bronica GS1, a 6x7 camera.  The GS1 was a lot bigger & heavier than the 645, but the bigger negative (almost twice the size of the 645 negative) made a big difference.  But the extra weight & size took some getting used to.


One word of advice -- unless you naturally crop your images square, I wouldn't consider a square format camera -- if you do, you'll be cropping all your images, throwing away negative space.

Dec 10 12 12:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,572
Louisville, Kentucky, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:

One word of advice -- unless you naturally crop your images square, I wouldn't consider a square format camera -- if you do, you'll be cropping all your images, throwing away negative space.

Square is art.  smile

Dec 10 12 12:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AgX
Posts: 1,147
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:
I hope this isn't threadjacking but I'm curious, never having worked with film MF, what accessories are required? For example, I'm pricing an RB67 at $150 what else is mandatory? Prism, back, etc.

Bare bones RB67: body (focusing screen is usually included, but make sure, same for the rotating back adapter)
a back - multiple flavours for 120, 220 and 135 film, with different negative sizes for medium format (6x7 is most popular but there are 645 backs as well); a standard Pro S or SD 120 back will be fine.
a finder - waist level or prism (metered or not, as per your needs)
a lens - (or 5 smile )

It's likely cheaper to buy someone's package than piece together your own system, unless you find you have particular components not commonly found together.

Dec 10 12 12:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Richard Klein Photo
Posts: 174
Buffalo Grove, Illinois, US


@Michael: I used RB 67s for years.  Amazing camera.  This is what I used and you should consider this gear: 2 bodies, Waist Level Finder, CDS Prism Finder, Dual Cable Release, 220 backs, 120 backs, 6 x 4.5 back with insert for viewing screen, split image viewing screen, 77mm clear optical glass filters for these lenses: 90mm, 127mm, 180mm, and optional: 140mm soft focus, grip handle for handholding.  Get a really solid tripod like a Bogen 3035 leg set and 3047 Head.  RBs are tanks and I so regret at times selling my outfit.  I made lots of money with them and the image quality is superb.  You will love working with one!  BTW: RB stands for rotating back and is standard on any RB body.  It is removable if you were using cut film holders or Polaroid Backs.
Dec 10 12 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Henry The Artist
Posts: 265
Blackpool, England, United Kingdom


Why buy a secondhand camera (which may be up to 30 years old and have a questionable history) when you can buy new?

Arax make fantastic medium format cameras. http://araxfoto.com/cameras/

I have both an Arax-CM/MLU and an Arax-645/MLU. They are my main cameras. big_smile

Dec 10 12 01:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony-S
Posts: 1,257
Fort Collins, Colorado, US


intense puppy wrote:
Anyways, the Bronica looks kinda of big too. Do you know how is compares in weight and portability to the RB?

The SQ B is quite a bit lighter than the RB. Unless you plan to shoot square the majority of the time, you'd be better off with a 645 camera since you get a lot more frames from a roll of film. Personally, I think 6x7 is really the best option since it's 25% larger than 6x6cm and preserves the 4x5 aspect ratio of view cameras.

Dec 10 12 02:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


AgX wrote:
My father found my Rolleicord at a garage sale for $25. I would call it the best bang for buck I've experienced, but recently someone on APUG gave me a Pentax 6x7 + 105/2.4 for the promise that I regift it if/when I'm done with it. From the first roll run through that monster

Exactly, the best bang for the buck!

I love the Rollicord for travel/modelling mobility (easily tossed in the digital bag), but THAT Pentax would be -my- dream camera!

Someday I'll get one just for B&W film.
http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g461/TyPortfolio/220px-Pentax_67_MU.jpg
PS: I have a great idea on that "re-gifting" thing! wink
I mean, should the need arise! LOL!

Dec 10 12 02:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hector Fernandez
Posts: 1,152
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico


The cheapest option is a Bronica ETR, get the ETRSi version its a 645 camera with shutter in the lenses, ttl options, different backs (120, polaroid and 35mm) and silvestri and kapture group make an adapter for hasselblad, with it you can place any digital back designed for the hasselblad V system. And the lenses are really good, just check the bronica flickr group and see the quality by yourself.
Dec 10 12 07:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Shinobi
Posts: 5,261
Daytona Beach, Florida, US


I'm experimenting too with MF...

I recently picked up a pristine condition Pentax 6x7 with a TTL pentaprism and a 105mm f/2.4 and am having a blast. Last week I got a 45mm f/4 from the same person and next week the last of his lenses, a 165mm f/2.8

The more and more I play with of my P67 and see prints taken with it the less and less I want to look at my DSLR. Digital is great don't get me wrong but 120/220 is absolutely fabulous.



Many great body and format options to decide on so take your time before you make a purchase.
Dec 10 12 07:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CDP Photo
Posts: 2,086
Brooklyn, New York, US


Lots of good suggestions, many great cameras.

I have a brand new never used and in the box Seagull twin lens (6x6, 120 film). A cheap Chinese copy of the famous Rolli twin lens. I believe they stop making them. If you want it to start out $100.00 plus postage. Hey, they are fun and you get a big neg. Like I said new in the box.
Dec 10 12 08:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AgX
Posts: 1,147
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


ArtisticGlamour wrote:

Exactly, the best bang for the buck!

I love the Rollicord for travel/modelling mobility (easily tossed in the digital bag), but THAT Pentax would be -my- dream camera!

Someday I'll get one just for B&W film.
http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g461/TyPortfolio/220px-Pentax_67_MU.jpg
PS: I have a great idea on that "re-gifting" thing! wink
I mean, should the need arise! LOL!

Mine looks just like that. The handle will come in handy for beating off the zombie hordes when that happens. The thing is truly a weapon, and takes a damn fine photo to boot.

I've lusted after one for a while, and just bought a 55/4 wide angle for it last week, so regifting may not happen. I'll likely pull a Heston: "From my cold, dead hands." wink

Dec 10 12 08:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fred Greissing
Posts: 5,766
Los Angeles, California, US


PhillipM wrote:
I have an RB67 w/3 lenes. 

I love the images that come from it, but it IS A BEAST.  You throw a 180mm on it, and your talking some luggage.

If I had it to do all over again, I would have opted for a lighter, possibly smaller form factor like a blad or Rollei.

When I shoot with my RB, I use the 50mm on it, just to help reduce weight, and even then, I use a tripod.  I don't have a WLF as well.  Another reason why I use the tripod.

Now that I'm hooked on 4x5, not even sure I'll pick the RB up again..

Just my side of things.

Pfffff... the RB is a bit chunky, but the beast is the Fuji GX680 wink

http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/FujiGX680III_10.JPG/800px-FujiGX680III_10.JPG

Both wonderful cameras.

Dec 10 12 09:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
clayton cooper photo
Posts: 398
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I love my RB but the cost kept me from kitting out as much as I would've liked...

I feel that Bronica is a great option as far as bang for the buck. I picked up an SQ-AI with two 120 backs, one 220 back, a Polaroid back, a grip with cold shoe and winder, a metered prism, a waist level viewfinder and a 50mm 2.8, 80mm 2.8, and a 150mm 3.5 all for $550 on craigslist. All in great shape. It's not the be-all-end-all of MF camera rigs but I love it.

Smiles,
Clayton

www.claytoncooper.com

PS. I love love love the 6x6 format. Squares are where it's at these days; just ask instagram. wink
Dec 10 12 09:57 pm  Link  Quote 
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