login info join!
Forums > Model Colloquy > why pay a model? Search   Reply
first1112131415last
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,085
Chicago, Illinois, US


Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Nice try, but you have it exactly backward.  So how many photographers you have paid. While it may happen rarely and it does happen with agency models, I see it rarely happen on MM.

Art is compatable for making money but from the artists side. Professional models are not needed for many art photographers. Only on the pages of MM where hobbyists and GWCs abound. 

So traveling models go around the country shooting TF with the great photographers and charge $100 to $125 per hour for the rest of the wanna bees and have the temarity to call that "reasonable"

There seem to be a few shooters here who make money from model tests but very few.  Its mostly photographers paying models.   There is a sad undercurrent to all this.   The better shooters almost never pay.   Models end up trying to charge newer shooters or folks who can't get models for trade.   I said it before but its part of why so many model profiles are stagnant.   They aren't being offered money to shoot beyond nudes and they really don't want to model.   It just seemed like a fun thing to do for a minute.   Amateur models on this site feel they should mostly be paid to shoot but agency models test all the time and often with new photographers without glowing references and a much or any published work.

I guess they have the time to do so unlike the MM superstars who are careers models but have no tear sheets and nobody ever pays outside of nudes.     I shot a MM model a while ago who after I worked with her changed her profile to 'paid only'.   I reached out to warn her about that.   Her response was quality costs.   Sure but not on a site where the only money if ever is nude.   This was a girl who with some work might have been signed.   A few months later she wrote me again for a free test.   I get models who want too be paid but I would prefer to focus on models who have a passion to be photographed rather then a passion for the contents of my wallet.

Jul 01 13 08:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,957
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


It is way much better pay and have it done. But since I don't have money and I don't want to stop shooting just because of this detail, I trade or batter.

And I founded out that trading with dancers and gymnasters to pose as model I get much better result than average models who only want money.

And there are many girls and woman who are dancers and want to be part in photoshoots.

As exchange, I let them use the image for any no commercial purpose and they can even sell prints if they want. So they don't mind me to sell the prints I want.

Everybody get what we want and everybody is happy. smile


Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?
Jul 01 13 11:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,399
San Diego, California, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:
There seem to be a few shooters here who make money from model tests but very few.  Its mostly photographers paying models.   There is a sad undercurrent to all this.   The better shooters almost never pay.   Models end up trying to charge newer shooters or folks who can't get models for trade.   I said it before but its part of why so many model profiles are stagnant.   They aren't being offered money to shoot beyond nudes and they really don't want to model.   It just seemed like a fun thing to do for a minute.   Amateur models on this site feel they should mostly be paid to shoot but agency models test all the time and often with new photographers without glowing references and a much or any published work.

I guess they have the time to do so unlike the MM superstars who are careers models but have no tear sheets and nobody ever pays outside of nudes.     I shot a MM model a while ago who after I worked with her changed her profile to 'paid only'.   I reached out to warn her about that.   Her response was quality costs.   Sure but not on a site where the only money if ever is nude.   This was a girl who with some work might have been signed.   A few months later she wrote me again for a free test.   I get models who want too be paid but I would prefer to focus on models who have a passion to be photographed rather then a passion for the contents of my wallet.

Truth.

Jul 01 13 06:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Watson Photograph
Posts: 52
Whittlesea, Victoria, Australia


Every bodies time is important the models I have worked with have always presented wonderfully hair and make up done and have travelled to make the shoot.
Make up costs money, travel takes time and costs money.
Even if it is a TFP shoot I believe a little something is in order. It is nearly always me that approaches them for a TFP shoot and if they are generous enough to give me their time I believe the least I can do is show a little appreciation by helping to cover some of their costs.
It really gets down to who is doing the chasing, the photographer to work with the model or the model to work with the photographer. I know they get prints for their efforts and I'm not talking a lot of money here but I have always found it greatly appreciated and certainly helps build a friendly working relationship and mutual respect.


Just my 20c worth

Cheers


Dave
Jul 01 13 06:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Miss Photog
Posts: 287
VALLEY VILLAGE, California, US


DougBPhoto wrote:

For every model that should not be paid, there are probably two "photographers" who should not be paid.

For those who are genuine models, it is idiotic to think they should not be compensated for their work.

When people do work for you, they get compensated, pretty basic concept.

What form that compensation happens in, that is a different matter, as it can be trade, barter, money, or something else the model deems valuable.

If you're making art (a painting), do you not pay for your paint, your canvas, your brushes?

If you're making art (a sculpture), do you not pay for your medium and your tools?

If the model is contributing to your art, of course they deserve compensation, unless you feel that acrylics and brushes are more valuable than models?

+1000

Jul 01 13 06:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Miss Photog
Posts: 287
VALLEY VILLAGE, California, US


Jordan Bunniie wrote:
Why do you feel the need to come into the model forum saying we dont deserve to be paid?

+1000
seriously? the nerve.
some of us do this professionally and work very hard.
looks like you're making a lot of friends with this post. lol

Jul 01 13 07:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 215
Chicago, Illinois, US


Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Nice try, but you have it exactly backward.  So how many photographers you have paid. While it may happen rarely and it does happen with agency models, I see it rarely happen on MM.

Art is compatable for making money but from the artists side. Professional models are not needed for many art photographers. Only on the pages of MM where hobbyists and GWCs abound. 

So traveling models go around the country shooting TF with the great photographers and charge $100 to $125 per hour for the rest of the wanna bees and have the temarity to call that "reasonable"

There are a lot of photographers who are paid only who I would pay in a heartbeat if I had the funds to. Until then I'm not an asshole about it to them and I'm not rude or try and lowball them if they offer their rates. I've nothing against paying photographers and I know many non agency models who have.

The fact is, it's usually photographers asking models for a shoot. I wouldn't ever message someone then offer them my rates upon them replying. It's bad manners.

Just because someone isn't agency doesn't mean they're not professional...and it is reasonable to offer someone your rates if you don't see it as mutually beneficial.

I don't like the implication here that wanting to be paid = not caring about modeling or being greedy. Models (and photographers!) have bills to pay, and if it's your project you should pay those you hire for it rather than expecting them to work for free. I do fashion design as well, and when I start shooting my clothes, I would not expect anyone to shoot them for free unless it was beneficial to them, they had rights to them, and they agreed to that.

I'd also like to add that I've been paid to shoot clothed. And that if someone puts paid only, it's their own choice. I say "select TF" because that leaves the door open a bit more. I'm willing to do trade with the right people who will benefit me.

Jul 01 13 09:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kithos
Posts: 360
York, Pennsylvania, US


I have paid several photographers whose work I like over the last 13 years of modeling. You pay people for their expertise. Now if a model can't do her own hair or makeup and is pretty much just a blank canvas with no experience, I don't really see the logic in paying her. Just like if a photographer cant edit photos and doesnt understand lighting, why pay them. As with anything, there's people with skill and those without. Choose the investment wisely when it comes to book building.
Jul 01 13 09:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 1,272
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:

There are a lot of photographers who are paid only who I would pay in a heartbeat if I had the funds to. Until then I'm not an asshole about it to them and I'm not rude or try and lowball them if they offer their rates. I've nothing against paying photographers and I know many non agency models who have.

Just because someone isn't agency doesn't mean they're not professional...and it is reasonable to offer someone your rates if you don't see it as mutually beneficial.

I'd also like to add that I've been paid to shoot clothed. And that if someone puts paid only, it's their own choice. I say "select TF" because that leaves the door open a bit more. I'm willing to do trade with the right people who will benefit me.

I never even ask the pay only models to work with me, and I never try to force them to shoot TF.  Its just not worth it especially when their port is mediocre at best.

There are really not a lot of photographers who are "paid only" even if that is what their profile says. They will almost always work TF if the model suits them.  It is a fallback position so they don't get messages from the"wrong" models. Likewise a number of paid only models have worked with me TF or have offered to work TF. 

So you state that  would if you had the money. That's nice I hope you do. But  why would you assume that the photographer has any more money than you.

In 2010 I paid every model I worked with yes even at that $100 reasonable rate per hour. Even some of those famous traveling models.  I spent over $15,000 and nearly went broke.

I also had found they contributed very little to the overall quality of my work.  Their poses were rote not creative and they basically just phoned the job in.

The local models I paid also did not gaurentee a good shoot because they really only cared about the money. Of course there were exceptions but not enough to see value in paying models.

So after that year I realized my photography had to get better, I had to develop a style and the right models would come knocking at my door.

I worked with new models who showed some talent and worked with them many times.  That brought other models, their friend and their friends, so forth and so on.

Both of my +18 wins were with non MM first time models .

I developed a team of models all who work for images and prints and framed artwork or.... dinner, a place to crash, a baby sitter, a guy who will help them move or buy them groceries when they have no money. They also work with me to be published, exhibited in galleries and because I am fun to work with and they are proud to be a part of my art.  In other words I am involved with my models and my models are with me. This approach, to me, is the only way to go. 

And it was with this mindset Stieglitz, Man Ray, Weston, Miller, and Modetti worked from to create their fine art.   When they shot commercial they paid professionals when they shot their art, their most endearing work they used their friends, their wives , their admirers, their lovers.  That seems like the "best" business model  to me.

I pay one amazing model and she is worth every penny, our shoots are fun, she is incredibly talented, lifts my work to higher levels, that is a model worth paying.

If models want to charge the new, the bad or the GWC photographer out there and call that "professional" than they and those photographers are welcome to that.

I know that pay only models work hard trying to line up shoots, book flights, try to find togs who will pay them to help mitigate the cost of their travel, and make sure they get paid , find the real photographers they want to work TF for so they can enhance their port and have a great photographer to list on their credit line. 

I can respect and appreciate that even though with rare exception I will not get on that Merry go Round.

Jul 01 13 10:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 215
Chicago, Illinois, US


Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
There are really not a lot of photographers who are "paid only" even if that is what their profile says. They will almost always work TF if the model suits them.  It is a fallback position so they don't get messages from the"wrong" models. Likewise a number of paid only models have worked with me TF or have offered to work TF.

Precisely why some models say "paid only." To weed out those who they don't want to work with so they don't get the "wrong" photographers.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
So you state that  would if you had the money. That's nice I hope you do. But  why would you assume that the photographer has any more money than you.

Because I am twenty, have a minimum wage job during semesters, and am a student?

For someone with a full time, usually well paying job, it is another story entirely. I understand when photographers also have circumstances, but if they can afford to pay then they should, as I should if I could. If I can't pay someone, I don't expect them to work with me.

Just like it's not (name of photographer I want to work with)'s problem that I can't afford their rates, it's not my problem if someone can't afford mine. I'm not going to shoot TF with someone because of something out of my control if their portfolio isn't something I see enhancing mine. I'll wait until they can afford to shoot me and I would do the same if the shoe was on the other foot (in fact, I am...)

Jul 01 13 10:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 1,272
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Kithos wrote:
I have paid several photographers whose work I like over the last 13 years of modeling. You pay people for their expertise. Now if a model can't do her own hair or makeup and is pretty much just a blank canvas with no experience, I don't really see the logic in paying her. Just like if a photographer cant edit photos and doesnt understand lighting, why pay them. As with anything, there's people with skill and those without. Choose the investment wisely when it comes to book building.



This is what you state in your profile............

If you're ready to shoot some awesome images and hire a professional model that will not treat you like an ATM, please get in touch! I work hard and make it my goal to give you great images filled with emotion and intrigue! I will shoot with all photographers of any skill level!



THESE WORDS ARE ABSOLUTELY AWESOME!  A LOOK THROUGH YOUR PORT... (STUNNING WORK, CREATIVE AND CLASSICALLY BEAUTIFUL)

The fact that you realize that some models don't have skill with make up or hair, treat the photographer like ATM machines.

Just those words alone would make me feel honored to work with you and pay you your rate. smile

Jul 01 13 10:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Oscar Partida
Posts: 731
San Diego, California, US


if you take bad photos you better pay well !!!
Jul 01 13 10:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Erica Jay
Posts: 151
New York, New York, US


*cue every model on MM messaging OP quoting rates*
Jul 01 13 10:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 1,272
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Oscar Partida wrote:
if you take bad photos you better pay well !!!

Paying a model doesn't make the photography better...

Jul 01 13 10:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 215
Chicago, Illinois, US


Right, but if your work's not great, don't expect someone whose is to work with you for trade because the images will more than likely be unusable for their portfolio.
Jul 01 13 10:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 1,272
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:
Right, but if your work's not great, don't expect someone whose is to work with you for trade because the images will more than likely be unusable for their portfolio.

I don't think they should either. In fact they should focus on improving their photography, invest in classes and workshops they shouldn't be paying any models until they learn more.

Jul 01 13 11:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 215
Chicago, Illinois, US


Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
I don't think they should either. In fact they should focus on improving their photography, invest in classes and workshops they shouldn't be paying any models until they learn more.

There are different ways of learning, and if that's what they want to do, it's up to them. Also, models for workshops/classes for learning to light/photograph the body, are usually paid...

Jul 01 13 11:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 1,272
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Shilo Von Porcelaine wrote:

There are different ways of learning, and if that's what they want to do, it's up to them. Also, models for workshops/classes for learning to light/photograph the body, are usually paid...

Yes by the person organizing the event. Some are paid cash, some are paid with prints by the lead instructor, I even know a model who was paid with the trip and the instructors old digital camera.

There are different ways a model can be paid. cash is not always required. 

You know I never said it wasn't up to people to do what they want. Let them pay for all the models they want.  I am not the OP each photographer can do what the heck they want

Jul 01 13 11:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 1,272
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Erica Jay wrote:
*cue every model on MM messaging OP quoting rates*

You have an amazing port....  Erica you are one of a handful that really portrays excellence in your work. I would also easily pay to work with you.  Your work is breath taking:)

Jul 01 13 11:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,085
Chicago, Illinois, US


From a business and practical viewpoint paying models doesn't make a lot of sense.   Unless you have a client and or place to market your work to recoup that investment.   I totally understand models who want to be paid but unless I have customers for my work with them its a bad investment overall.   There has been some conversation about the value of a photographers work to a model.   Lets be candid, few models on MM would be capable of being signed.   Their customers are largely us and its in their best interest to tell photographers that they should pay models.   A new shooter is wasting his/her money paying models when they are still learning technique, style and composition.   A more experienced photographer can usually find models for trade.   When hacks me can anyone can.   

So that leaves a small sliver of photographers who will pay and lets also be frank.   Its almost always for nudes.   The truth is that talent charging talent doesn't work well.   A member here mentioned that hobbies cost and that models have expenses.   Photographers do as well.   I love tennis but I couldn't afford to play if I had to always pay to play.   We all deserve to be paid for our time but if you think some dude with a mortgage, car payment, child support and other bills is just handing out hundreds and making it rain you're being foolish.
Jul 01 13 11:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Figuremodel001
Posts: 284
Chicago, Illinois, US


Sand Angel Photography wrote:
For the same reason one might say you should pay a photographer. It's about who needs the services performed the most.

That's a good one.

Jul 08 13 05:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Symphony Rose
Posts: 124
Fallbrook, California, US


FoxyStudios wrote:
I only pay models, Why ? because this is my product im making and as sure as I want full control of my camera I want full control of my project. Its not rocket science to learn that you get what you pay for.

A-friggin-MEN


I get so undercut as a model, and many photographers assume that shooting a girl for free will get the same result.
This is INCORRECT.  You could be a Playboy photographer, and if you shoot an amateur or 'free' model because you don't believe in paying girls, then you're risking working with a model who is not only inexperienced, but unprofessional, ignorant of posing/facial workings, wardrobe/styling/makeup, etc.
A LOT of us models have rates now because we've ALREADY done all the TF shoots, gone through all the learning experiences, and as a result we are educated and versatile.

You get what you pay for.  Truth.

Jul 08 13 05:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Symphony Rose
Posts: 124
Fallbrook, California, US


Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Paying a model doesn't make the photography better...

You'd be surprised.  Even a bad photographer can have an image look decent if the model knows her light source, styling/makeup, posing and relationship with the camera.

wink

Jul 08 13 05:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Emma Anne
Posts: 109
Austin, Texas, US


Some do it as an art, some do it for pay, some do it for both. What is everyone's ultimate dream? To get paid for doing what you love. There are so many reasons to pay models, so many reasons to pay photographers as well. Let's all do what we can to create more economic power behind art.
Jul 08 13 05:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Cole Morrison
Posts: 3,958
Portland, Oregon, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

But what would you say if models were trying to pay you to shoot? I bet you'd sing a different tune.

Jul 08 13 06:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,085
Chicago, Illinois, US


Symphony Rose wrote:

A-friggin-MEN


I get so undercut as a model, and many photographers assume that shooting a girl for free will get the same result.
This is INCORRECT.  You could be a Playboy photographer, and if you shoot an amateur or 'free' model because you don't believe in paying girls, then you're risking working with a model who is not only inexperienced, but unprofessional, ignorant of posing/facial workings, wardrobe/styling/makeup, etc.
A LOT of us models have rates now because we've ALREADY done all the TF shoots, gone through all the learning experiences, and as a result we are educated and versatile.

You get what you pay for.  Truth.

Shh... don't tell anybody but most of the best known Playboy models were NOT professional models.   Many if not most had never posed nude for a publication.    However with great lighting, make-up and guys like Mecey and Ken Marcus both members here they looked great.   So you would be INCORRECT about amateur or 'free' models.   In fact many of the models who are being shot for fashion editorial and covers do so after only a few shoots.   They don't need to know poses, wardrobe, styling or make-up.   The simple truth is models who have 'it' don't need experience.   A large part of being a successful fashion, beauty or nude model is being attractive and having a great figure but its the ability to look good in print.

Experience won't make a model who looks like a Doberman look like a Supermodel.   There are models who charge clients via their agency but test for free all the time.   Even with hacks like me.   I understand that MM models want photographers to think that paying PROFESSIONAL models from this site means getting better models but the truth is it doesn't make a difference because 90% of the models here would never be signed by any real world fashion agency.   Getting what you pay for has ZERO to do with booking models from any website.

Jul 08 13 06:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GNapp Studios
Posts: 6,201
Somerville, New Jersey, US


Why should anyone pay r4u photographer?

Anyone can use a cell phone or camera and take their own pictures and print them at COSTCO.

What you pay for is quality, that is why photographer's and advertisers pay a model.
Jul 08 13 06:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Nelson Photograph
Posts: 348
Eau Claire, Wisconsin, US


I pay models because my time and skill is valuable and their time and skill is valuable, each of us without the other is unfulfilled.
Jul 08 13 06:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nikki Vicious
Posts: 131
Flower Mound, Texas, US


I've been doing this off and on for almost 12 years. During that time, I've been paid, and I've paid photographers. Every time I branch out into a new genre, I'm happy to pay photographers that I respect and I know I will get good images from, to build my port in that area.

I don't understand why it shouldn't work the same in reverse.

I've had photographers contact me for TFP, and then ask me to purchase some wildly expensive costume that I'm going to wear once. I've spent $250 on a costume, only to have the photographer end up flaking on me, and we never shot it. How is that professional? I get that paying gigs come first, but this was someone that contacted me, floated the idea to me, literally waited until the day of the shoot, and didn't bother to contact me at all to say "oh hey, let's reschedule" so I wasted money on the costume, hair, makeup, gas to drive the almost two hours to shoot, plus taking the whole day off from my corporate job...

Funny thing is, we've still never shot, because he forgot and contacted me a few months later for a whole different TFP and when I reminded him about rescheduling the original shoot, he disappeared.

But yes, it's totally always photographers who are out money and should be paid... You guys are the only ones that are producing art and have any monetary stake in this.

Ok now that my sarcasm escaped, I seriously think this is a give and take, for both parties. If you could do your job without us, you would, and there wouldn't be an issue. Same goes with us as models. You would take offense to us treating you as just a button pusher, so don't treat us like blow up dolls. Some of us who may be hobbyists still bust our asses to be professional in every aspect of our professional lives, regardless of if its modeling or MUAH or editing photos, or even just responding to all the messages on here from people that are real photographers and are just using this site as a cheaper match.com.

I'm completely a hobbyist, but I'm sure my professional makeup kit, and my vast wardrobe/jewelry/shoe collection would cause you to wonder a out that. I can't even begin to figure out what all of that is worth, but I'm sure it ranks up there with some of the more expensive cameras. I'm lucky. I'm not a starving college age model, but I've worked with tons, and I'm always happy to share my wardrobe and jewelry on shoots where we're working together. Why? Because its beneficial to all parties if I do, usually. If you as a photographer aren't willing to approach shoots in that same manner, then only work with models that will pay you or trade. See how that works out for you, and if it works, then good for you, keep doing what works.

Coming into the models forum and essentially telling a whole community of models that we shouldn't be paid, however... That just seems to me to be the height of tackiness, and quite rude. /shrugs Oh well, I'm just a hobbyists, so what do I know wink
Jul 09 13 09:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,085
Chicago, Illinois, US


Nikki Vicious wrote:
I've been doing this off and on for almost 12 years. During that time, I've been paid, and I've paid photographers. Every time I branch out into a new genre, I'm happy to pay photographers that I respect and I know I will get good images from, to build my port in that area.

I don't understand why it shouldn't work the same in reverse.

I've had photographers contact me for TFP, and then ask me to purchase some wildly expensive costume that I'm going to wear once. I've spent $250 on a costume, only to have the photographer end up flaking on me, and we never shot it. How is that professional? I get that paying gigs come first, but this was someone that contacted me, floated the idea to me, literally waited until the day of the shoot, and didn't bother to contact me at all to say "oh hey, let's reschedule" so I wasted money on the costume, hair, makeup, gas to drive the almost two hours to shoot, plus taking the whole day off from my corporate job...

Funny thing is, we've still never shot, because he forgot and contacted me a few months later for a whole different TFP and when I reminded him about rescheduling the original shoot, he disappeared.

But yes, it's totally always photographers who are out money and should be paid... You guys are the only ones that are producing art and have any monetary stake in this.

Ok now that my sarcasm escaped, I seriously think this is a give and take, for both parties. If you could do your job without us, you would, and there wouldn't be an issue. Same goes with us as models. You would take offense to us treating you as just a button pusher, so don't treat us like blow up dolls. Some of us who may be hobbyists still bust our asses to be professional in every aspect of our professional lives, regardless of if its modeling or MUAH or editing photos, or even just responding to all the messages on here from people that are real photographers and are just using this site as a cheaper match.com.

I'm completely a hobbyist, but I'm sure my professional makeup kit, and my vast wardrobe/jewelry/shoe collection would cause you to wonder a out that. I can't even begin to figure out what all of that is worth, but I'm sure it ranks up there with some of the more expensive cameras. I'm lucky. I'm not a starving college age model, but I've worked with tons, and I'm always happy to share my wardrobe and jewelry on shoots where we're working together. Why? Because its beneficial to all parties if I do, usually. If you as a photographer aren't willing to approach shoots in that same manner, then only work with models that will pay you or trade. See how that works out for you, and if it works, then good for you, keep doing what works.

Coming into the models forum and essentially telling a whole community of models that we shouldn't be paid, however... That just seems to me to be the height of tackiness, and quite rude. /shrugs Oh well, I'm just a hobbyists, so what do I know wink

The OP didn't say that models shouldn't be paid.   "They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please"

He has a point.   If a photographer isn't going to monetize his work then paying doesn't make a lot of sense.   If I sell my work in a gallery or on-line or for content or have a client then paying is fair but if its just portfolio building or art paying makes little sense.   I get why some people do it.   I'm a hobby shooter and if there is a model I like who isn't up for a trade then paying is fine but not on a regular basis.   However he didn't say models shouldn't be paid.

Jul 09 13 10:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marciofs
Posts: 1,957
Freiburg, Baden-Württemberg, Germany


Tony Lawrence wrote:

Shh... don't tell anybody but most of the best known Playboy models were NOT professional models.   Many if not most had never posed nude for a publication.    However with great lighting, make-up and guys like Mecey and Ken Marcus both members here they looked great.   So you would be INCORRECT about amateur or 'free' models.   In fact many of the models who are being shot for fashion editorial and covers do so after only a few shoots.   They don't need to know poses, wardrobe, styling or make-up.   The simple truth is models who have 'it' don't need experience.   A large part of being a successful fashion, beauty or nude model is being attractive and having a great figure but its the ability to look good in print.

Experience won't make a model who looks like a Doberman look like a Supermodel.   There are models who charge clients via their agency but test for free all the time.   Even with hacks like me.   I understand that MM models want photographers to think that paying PROFESSIONAL models from this site means getting better models but the truth is it doesn't make a difference because 90% of the models here would never be signed by any real world fashion agency.   Getting what you pay for has ZERO to do with booking models from any website.

I have shot all kind of models and I can tell that you can find people who have never modeled and will do a good job. But as I could observed, or the model is strong confident about her pose and look to make a good job, or the model has experience with other field where se poses as well like classic dancers, gymnasters, etc. For this reason I have shot people with no experience as model at all and they delivered better work than many experienced models.

But at the same time I have shot experienced models who thanks to their practice, studies and experience they arrive in the shoot as any ordinary person you find everywhere and become a diva during the shoot.

In conclusion, it is not because you are paying and the model has years of experience that it guarantee they will do a good job. And if you know finding the right person to pose for you, you can shoot as trade and get better results than  all the professional models you had paid.

And the same works in every field and not only with models.


Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?

Jul 09 13 10:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,596
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


Yan Tan Tethera wrote:
Interesting. Why would it concern you what I or any other photographer on here does?

I'm currently paying llamas in order that I'm under no obligation to provide images.

It works for me.

Yep.

Although the concern is legitimate. There are some photographers who are so generous that they overpay and give pictures. Now there is a small group of llamas who expect the same, and I can no longer work trade with them. So, yes I am having to move on, and work with others. And they are only getting sporadic work, from this person. Everybody looses, except the people who created the situation, and even they are loosing since the original llamas are now demanding more, and lesser quality llamas are demanding as much.

When you pay more then the market demands, then the market will start demanding more pay. There is a fine balance between either side taking unfair advantage of the other side. Some will say that what is fair is whatever is agreed to, and although true, it does have its limitations.

Jul 09 13 10:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,596
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


Tony Lawrence wrote:
From a business and practical viewpoint paying models doesn't make a lot of sense.   Unless you have a client and or place to market your work to recoup that investment.   I totally understand models who want to be paid but unless I have customers for my work with them its a bad investment overall.   There has been some conversation about the value of a photographers work to a model.   Lets be candid, few models on MM would be capable of being signed.   Their customers are largely us and its in their best interest to tell photographers that they should pay models.   A new shooter is wasting his/her money paying models when they are still learning technique, style and composition.   A more experienced photographer can usually find models for trade.   When hacks me can anyone can.   

So that leaves a small sliver of photographers who will pay and lets also be frank.   Its almost always for nudes.   The truth is that talent charging talent doesn't work well.   A member here mentioned that hobbies cost and that models have expenses.   Photographers do as well.   I love tennis but I couldn't afford to play if I had to always pay to play.   We all deserve to be paid for our time but if you think some dude with a mortgage, car payment, child support and other bills is just handing out hundreds and making it rain you're being foolish.

YOU GET PAID. At least the models. Either you get money or images. The instant that someone says that working trade with me is working for free, then I have just been insulted and told that my images are worthless (and they may very well be for this particular person).

This whole thread subject is really, really, really old and been worked to death. Just dropped in to see how quickly it would derail. Next somebody is going to start an escort thread..

Jul 09 13 11:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Simmagination
Posts: 3,129
Westminster, Maryland, US


Hell even my DOG gets a Beggin' Strip when I photograph her tongue
Jul 09 13 11:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,596
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


David Watson Photograph wrote:
Every bodies time is important the models I have worked with have always presented wonderfully hair and make up done and have travelled to make the shoot.
Make up costs money, travel takes time and costs money.
Even if it is a TFP shoot I believe a little something is in order. It is nearly always me that approaches them for a TFP shoot and if they are generous enough to give me their time I believe the least I can do is show a little appreciation by helping to cover some of their costs.
It really gets down to who is doing the chasing, the photographer to work with the model or the model to work with the photographer. I know they get prints for their efforts and I'm not talking a lot of money here but I have always found it greatly appreciated and certainly helps build a friendly working relationship and mutual respect.


Just my 20c worth

Cheers


Dave

From the other Victoria.

Personally I have found that models bringing *me* lunch or cookies is also greatly appreciated. One gave me a beautiful Steve McCurry book for Xmas.

Jul 09 13 11:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,085
Chicago, Illinois, US


Marciofs wrote:

I have shot all kind of models and I can tell that you can find people who have never modeled and will do a good job. But as I could observed, or the model is strong confident about her pose and look to make a good job, or the model has experience with other field where se poses as well like classic dancers, gymnasters, etc. For this reason I have shot people with no experience as model at all and they delivered better work than many experienced models.

But at the same time I have shot experienced models who thanks to their practice, studies and experience they arrive in the shoot as any ordinary person you find everywhere and become a diva during the shoot.

In conclusion, it is not because you are paying and the model has years of experience that it guarantee they will do a good job. And if you know finding the right person to pose for you, you can shoot as trade and get better results than  all the professional models you had paid.

And the same works in every field and not only with models.


Marcio Faustino
Marcio Faustino - Traditional Prints
Are you an aspiring model?

Hi, Marcio.    I've worked with models who had never shot with anyone before were great and others who had worked with lots of guys and were just okay.   Some of its chemistry between photographer and model.   Some of it is how confident the model is as a person or if she's had dance training, etc . as you mentioned.    The truth is that some women have a genetic gift.   Its not so much about being experienced as much as they look good.   This may not be accepted well but modelling isn't a skill so much in my mind as a gift.   Some people are better looking and or they look great in print or film.   They sparkle.   The late Playboy model Dorothy Stratten had it.   Fashion models Iman and Cindy Crawford had it.   Models on this site largely don't.   The reason some of the nude models here make a lot is because some will do explicit uninhibited nudes.

Look when  a 14 year old fashion model after two or three shoots is modelling in Paris and NY and doing covers its not about experience or talent or that she's been a dancer in the Bolshoi.   Its because she's fine and has a look clients and magazines like.    Cool work from you by the way.

Jul 09 13 11:22 am  Link  Quote 
Model
KATHY JEAN
Posts: 5,513
Pekin, Illinois, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

That's funny shit. big_smile

Jul 09 13 11:32 am  Link  Quote 
Model
BENZ VEAL
Posts: 54
Los Angeles, California, US


this is interesting
Jul 09 13 01:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AG Media 13
Posts: 227
Townsville, Queensland, Australia


I'll always compensate a model for their time - some want a canvas print, some want a cd of images, some want $50.00 per shooting hour.  They can have one of those  but not all.
Jul 11 13 12:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R.EYE.R
Posts: 2,793
Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan


OP: Throwing shit on a fan - level 80!..big_smile
Jul 12 13 07:55 am  Link  Quote 
first1112131415last   Search   Reply