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Photographer
mike connor
Posts: 26
Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom


Simple maths!

Quality model = quality images 

Quality model = a fee
Dec 30 12 10:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,903
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Jordan Bunniie wrote:
Why do you feel the need to come into the llama forum saying we dont deserve to be paid?

yes, should this not be in a different venue? in this forum you should be saying don't pay the photographers.

Dec 30 12 10:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,559
Portland, Oregon, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

For every model that should not be paid, there are probably two "photographers" who should not be paid.

For those who are genuine models, it is idiotic to think they should not be compensated for their work.

When people do work for you, they get compensated, pretty basic concept.

What form that compensation happens in, that is a different matter, as it can be trade, barter, money, or something else the model deems valuable.

If you're making art (a painting), do you not pay for your paint, your canvas, your brushes?

If you're making art (a sculpture), do you not pay for your medium and your tools?

If the model is contributing to your art, of course they deserve compensation, unless you feel that acrylics and brushes are more valuable than models?

Dec 30 12 10:26 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Ifa Brand
Posts: 126
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Quality images = quality models who know their job, but this is not a service that comes without cost.


You don't tell your baker:
'Wow man, I love your pies... but I'm not going to pay for them because baking is not work.'

Quality = money, not just in the art world.
Dec 30 12 10:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Joseph William
Posts: 1,959
Chicago, Illinois, US


tonyfromsyracuse wrote:
the days of rock star photographers is coming to a close what with affordable cameras and intuitive software programs that can put hundreds of template sheens and concepts on pictures. I know thats difficult to swallow, but you've all seen the ports on MM.
.

Um.  This is a bit of a tangent, but a lot of MM proves the opposite, there are tons of properly(ish) exposed images that are not interesting or composed very well at all.  The best camera can't tell you where to point it.

Dec 30 12 10:30 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Linda Chudomelova
Posts: 133
Prague, Prague, Czech Republic


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

I don't even... yikes

I would really want to hear you elaborate on this.

Why not paying models for non-commercial work? I mean... if I wanted to be a bitch, I could say the same about anyone in the industry, no? I just... um. Don't get it. I have a deep respect for my colleagues, be it models, photographers or stylists, bodypainters or whoever else. I have a deep respect for anyone who is willing to work at improving themselves in anything. I think it takes a lot of work and skill to be a model; often posing in positions that are, frankly, painful, having to strip in snow or climb to dangerous places for a good shot. All this while still maintaining a look the part the photographers request to have on the final image and having to keep their skin, hair and bodies in a good condition in their "free" time (and with their money and let's not forget the joys of harassment that (some) models experience from time to time. Oh, and the objectification.

I wouldn't want to be a model if it paid handsomely, much less for free.

And as has been pointed out, at some point the models you will be able to get in front of your camera for no pay will not be good enough and for the one's you'll want in front of your camera you won't be good enough. What will you do then?

I really hope you're just trolling.

Dec 30 12 10:30 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Figuremodel001
Posts: 267
Chicago, Illinois, US


Sand Angel Photography wrote:
For the same reason one might say you should pay a photographer. It's about who needs the services performed the most. Do you need a certain look for something? Then I would imagine it is faster and easier to pay someone than wait for them to come to you. That works for both sides.

Bingo!

Dec 30 12 10:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David J Martin
Posts: 455
Amberg, Bavaria, Germany


tonyfromsyracuse wrote:
WE.....need models more than they need us. so we have to offer an incentive otherwise it will be back to the days of bananas in a bowl.

the days of rock star photographers is coming to a close what with affordable cameras and intuitive software programs that can put hundreds of template sheens and concepts on pictures. I know thats difficult to swallow, but you've all seen the ports on MM.

yes many photos look amazing....but essencially you are seeing clones of the same poses and concepts....only the names and models are changed.
why pay? cause the models themselves here are finally starting to understand, they dont "need" us to take nude pictures of them.

they are starting to understand they are so beautiful...WE need them, which is why so many now, are moving towards... pay me.

I couldn't disagree more.  Photography of a commercial nature aside.  Model, photographer, MUA, etc. are seeking something of value when they ask someone else to work with them.  There are some people I wouldn't TF with because they offer nothing of value to me.  They could pay me though.  Same with models.  If they add tremendously to the shoot I'm doing, then why would I not pay them?  They have something I need that's a rare commodity. 

I don't think camera's and editing software have become so accessible that amazing photography is now just a click on the camera button or editing program.  As an example, the very essence of editorial photography is creativity.  Greatness is still not something they offer in a pill.  This just goes to prove the point that the skill the someone brings is valuable and true quality is rare, be it photographer, MUA, model etc.

Dec 30 12 10:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,206
Salem, Oregon, US


traveling models are amazing but some of my best shoots have been with boudoir customers who paid me. they are so sweet and cute and sexy (a little curvier than the typical model) and appreciative. they don't have their guard up to ward off potential creepers. plus they often give me big bear hugs at the end of the shoot. that's the thing that i like about terry richardson -- he would seem to get on well with his models (maybe too well. lol)

really i think it's more about whether a girl has "it". either you have "it" or you don't. doesn't matter how many shoots you've done or whether you get paid. even with photographers you can usually tell if they are going to be any good right from the beginning (they will have lots of failures at the beginning but the home runs will be in evidence).

i do like paying when i can afford to because i know i'll get someone reliable and professional and good at posing, etc. and many of the paid models have a signature look and posing style so you get something that's unique to them. or you pay to say you've shot a playboy model (like the amazing carlotta).

Ifa Brand  wrote:
Quality images = quality models who know their job, but this is not a service that comes without cost.

Dec 30 12 10:45 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,926
New York, New York, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

They also say "To thine own self be true."
So if you can afford it and the model is worth it please pay in what ever form she prefers.  If you can't afford it or if the model isn't worth paying, please don't pay her.  And if, as is usually the case, your specific instance falls somewhere between the afforementioned extremes, please work out a mutually acceptable and equitible amount and form of compensation between the two of you.

Takes a little bit more thought, requires a little bit more brain power, but it makes for a happier and more fruitful relationship because, "It follows as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man." -- or model.

Dec 30 12 10:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art Silva
Posts: 8,935
Santa Barbara, California, US


Is this OP for real? Wow!


I tried this same way of thinking last time I went into a bar, it's not like I was going to go outside after and advertise their establishment and beer selection so I said I wanted it for free... They said Pay up or GTFO and never comeback.

Luckily I knew the bartender but still...
Dec 30 12 10:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
3934
Posts: 569
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Seeing as I'm going to guess that this topic has probably been discussed at least a couple of times previously, would I get into serious trouble by the mods if I changed the topic slightly?

Last person to post on this thread wins!

/ducks
Dec 30 12 10:55 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Caitin Bre
Posts: 1,798
Naperville, Illinois, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

Why Pay a photographer? Double edged sword!
Well the difference between a good Photographer and a bad one isn't the equipment but there artistic talent.
The difference between a good Photographer and a great photographer is Talent and ability to Work with there equipment to get  the vision.
Who actually ends up with the fruits of our (photographer and model) labor? Art yes, but who's art?
If you want a prop to make your vision into art you buy it or rent it. Right? And it is your art. Grandpa always said nothing is for free!

Dec 30 12 11:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,105
Orlando, Florida, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

You're not my mother.

Please don't tell me what to do.

Dec 30 12 11:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,549
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Linda Chudomelova wrote:
I really hope you're just trolling.

I think this is a really safe bet. How much do you want to bet that the OP will never return to this thread?

Dec 30 12 11:11 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Caroline Alexander
Posts: 24
Leeds, England, United Kingdom


You could say by the same token, that we shouldn't pay photographers either! Think carefully before you post.
Dec 30 12 11:11 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Christie Gabriel
Posts: 2,800
Chicago, Illinois, US


orias wrote:
yeah why would you pay anyone for their time, their skills, their effort, etc.

that's just CRAZINESS

DONT PAY ANYONE PLEASE!   

if you're not making money off of your pipes,  DONT PAY YOUR PLUMBER PLEASE!

if you're not making money on your home, DONT PAY YOUR LANDLORD PLEASE!

if you're not making money off your pants,  DONT  PAY YOUR RETAILER PLEASE!

if you're not making money off your pot pie,  DONT PAY YOUR CAFE PLEASE!

if you're not making money off your water,  DONT PAY YOUR UTILITIES PLEASE!

if you pay these people and everyone else,   they will start to think they have any sort of value,  we would like them to start thinking that they are worthless and exist only to please us PLEASE


this is literally the dumbest thing i have heard all month and there has been some STIFF competition.

I just fell in love with you smile

Dec 30 12 11:14 am  Link  Quote 
Model
-Aviva-
Posts: 3,419
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


In the world of freelancing, and if the model's images are not being utilized by a commercial client, it is up to the model and the photographer who are working together to decide who should be paid and how much.

So, to say that "models (or photographers) should not be paid" is not right. If you personally choose not to pay models, then that's up to you. What the other photographers/models are doing is up to them.

If a photographer knows that shooting with a particular model will benefit his portfolio more than it would benefit the model, then the model should be paid for her time. If the reverse is true, then the photographer should be paid.
The person with the weaker portfolio pays the person with the stronger portfolio.

If both feel that they can get something out of the shoot, then yes, TF is good.

There are many reasons why a photographer would pay a model:
1. The model has a great look the photographer likes and she doesn't want to do TF
2. The model has a stronger portfolio than the photographer and can't benefit from TF.
3. The model has been published so she is deemed more marketable.
4. The model is well-connected in the industry and paying her could help the photographer get more gigs.
5. The photographer is considering trying to make some $ off the images but doesn't want to pay the model a % after they sell and instead wants to pay her outright.

(Some of the above could also be applied to why a model would pay a photographer)

I hope this helps,
Aviva
www.ahlifeandstyle.com
Dec 30 12 11:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
salvatori.
Posts: 3,709
State College, Pennsylvania, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

Sorry, I must be missing something. Where does it say that it's any of your business how another person conducts their work?

Just have your people call my people.

Sincerely,

Jimmi 'I'm so confused' Salvatori.

And let's not forget... this is fucking America. The models here want to get paid if they have to do something like, oh I dunno, sit naked with a power drill pressed against their bewbs... (I'm guessing anyways...)

smile

Dec 30 12 11:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mcary
Posts: 1,803
Fredericksburg, Virginia, US


A someone who shoots for purely artistic purpose I just don't understand why, Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Leica, Kodak Ilford, ext don't provide me with their products at no cost.  After all I'm not shooting for commercial purpose so why should I have to pay smile
Dec 30 12 11:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
salvatori.
Posts: 3,709
State College, Pennsylvania, US


Mcary wrote:
A someone who shoots for purely artistic purpose I just don't understand why, Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Leica, Kodak Ilford, ext don't provide me with their products at no cost.  After all I'm not shooting for commercial purpose so why should I have to pay smile

If you get anywhere with this, let me know. I will take all the extra film bodies that Leica has lying around gathering dust...

smile

Dec 30 12 11:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mcary
Posts: 1,803
Fredericksburg, Virginia, US


salvatori. wrote:

If you get anywhere with this, let me know. I will take all the extra film bodies that Leica has lying around gathering dust...

smile

Will keep you posted.

I'm also contacting the airlines, motel chains and rental car companies as I feel I'm also entitled to their service and products at no cost, since I'll be using them in the pursuit of creating art smile

Dec 30 12 11:34 am  Link  Quote 
Model
orias
Posts: 4,982
Tampa, Florida, US


Christie Gabriel wrote:

I just fell in love with you smile

i'm not gonna pay you for that either lol wink

Dec 30 12 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,903
Port Townsend, Washington, US


r4u, you might want to use this http://translate.google.com/ to help you here. good luck.
Dec 30 12 11:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,787
Vineland, New Jersey, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

I don't pay models.  I do, however, travel to the area of their choice (usually a park relatively near to their homes or jobs) and make things as convenient as possible for them.  I also try to not keep their time monopolized for more than an hour at a time. I also go for models who say they have little or no experience and are willing to shoot TF (or at least not paid assignments only).  This is true with MM models, anyway.

  If I'm not making money, I can't afford to pay them.  On the other hand, if someone were to contact me later and say they'd pay me $x for a certain picture, I would be on the phone contacting the model to see if I can send her money.  I can't imagine a model saying no, especially since none of the pictures feature any nudity.

  On the other hand, what other people do on their own time is their own business.  If they want to pay a model so they can have pictures to hang on their own wall or whatever other reason, it's not my business or concern.

Dec 30 12 11:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art Silva
Posts: 8,935
Santa Barbara, California, US


orias wrote:
i'm not gonna pay you for that either lol wink

Dec 30 12 11:48 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Scarlett Renee
Posts: 217
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Bet the OP doesn't complain about models paying him...

I have something slightly rude to say involving paying models for their time, but it would involve an unsolicited critique, and I don't want to break any rules here...
Dec 30 12 11:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,549
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


nyk fury wrote:
r4u, you might want to use this http://translate.google.com/ to help you here. good luck.

Yeah, but we don't need a translator for the language of Stupid that the OP is pretty fluent in.

Dec 30 12 11:50 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Scarlett Renee
Posts: 217
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Shot By Adam wrote:

Yeah, but we don't need a translator for the language of Stupid that the OP is pretty fluent in.

+1

Dec 30 12 11:52 am  Link  Quote 
Model
orias
Posts: 4,982
Tampa, Florida, US


Art Silva Photography wrote:
Ummm, Ill pay her... not sure why but it sounded good  big_smile


"You're Not the Boss of Me!"

you'll pay her to love me?  that sounds pretty awesome......

but me and her are models and we shouldn't be paid or rewarded for our work..... geeze get on the same hater page here ;P

Dec 30 12 11:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Zahra
Posts: 1,079
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Try shooting with the top models at the best agencies and see if it adds anything to your portfolio.  You'll have to pay for them...
Dec 30 12 12:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art Silva
Posts: 8,935
Santa Barbara, California, US


orias wrote:

you'll pay her to love me?  that sounds pretty awesome......

but me and her are models and we shouldn't be paid or rewarded for our work..... geeze get on the same hater page here ;P

Well, if you say it like that I think that discussion is for another thread wink haha.

I know I went off topic slightly for a second... okay back to the hater stuff, you're right.

Dec 30 12 12:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,066
Alexandria, Virginia, US


All of my models are compensated -

some are compensated with my time talent and effort and they benefit from this -  sometimes she benefits more than I do lol - and sometimes it's the other way around

when I do elect to pay a model over and above the contribution of my time and talent,  it is because in my estimation she brings something of value that is an asset to the work I produce. At least hopefully this is the case - and it usually is.

this artsy-fartsy idea that somehow art is "pure" and should not be "tainted" by money is for those who live in the ivory tower,  for the socially ill adept, and the narcissistic. 

It is not real life. 

bah - I think you waded into the model colloquy just to stir up sh*t -  can anyone really be that..... uh......
Dec 30 12 12:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Starworx
Posts: 3
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada


Always pay on commercial jobs.  But if the shoot is for my portfolio or 'art' I pay either with images or cash or both.  Models should be helped out in their carriers if their work is helping me in mine.
Dec 30 12 12:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Natural Body Photo
Posts: 297
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


I could +1 a lot of comments, but aside from obtaining the services of a model in high demand, or a certain look quickly, I am concerned about reaching the goals of a project while building quality, long term relationships    - Truthfully, the photographer, mua, hair, digi-guy/gal and model all deserve to get paid; if we are realistic and reasonable with each other, we can settle on an agreement that is fair and makes everyone happy again and again. 
Sometimes the terms will change:  Some ladies have worked with me on trade and have done a lot of good for me, by attracting other models or clients, and I want to pay them as a token of my gratitude.  Some based on their experience level and strong port hold a lot of promise of a high return back to me and they too should be paid.  I paid one model quite a bit and also traveled a long way because I needed to be inspired and she was the only one whose work reached me like that, at that time and it was money well spent.
Dec 30 12 12:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPV Photo
Posts: 763
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Let people that want to pay models, pay models. Those that don't can do what they want, too.
Dec 30 12 12:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,743
Santa Ana, California, US


Mark in MTL wrote:
Sometimes it's better to just pay and be done with it than deal with all the demands of and extra work of a TF agreement.

Ditto.
Based on what I bill my time out for, it is almost always cheaper for me to now pay a reasonable modeling fee in dollars, than to pay in the time it takes me to finish 3-4 images specifically for the model.

Dec 30 12 12:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MZ PhotoFilm
Posts: 202
Jacksonville, Florida, US


from my experience, models over here only want to be paid, well i have to work an hourly job to make my money which I hardly have extra of after the initial bills... so i get zero shoots
Dec 30 12 12:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Venessa Baez
Posts: 616
Tampa, Florida, US


When someone has models in their portfolio who only have one pose and one expression, it's a must to find professionals. If a model wants to better her portfolio, she hires a good photographer? If a good photographer wants paying clients, he gets good models for his portfolio.
Dec 30 12 12:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LA StarShooter
Posts: 1,760
Los Angeles, California, US


Jordan Bunniie wrote:
Why do you feel the need to come into the model forum saying we dont deserve to be paid?

That's a killer response.

Dec 30 12 12:35 pm  Link  Quote 
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