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Photographer
deletedxxx
Posts: 149
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

I'll do what I damn well want.

Personally I think TF sucks for both parties. I would prefer to see a system where people pay whomever they want to work with, or maybe barter a mutually agreeable outcome if either (or both) are short on cash.
Oh, that whats TF is!

Dec 30 12 12:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Michael Walker
Posts: 11,957
Costa Mesa, California, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

Well, one person's art is another's "you got to pay me to do THAT". If your work is perceived as a value to the model it's easy to get them to trade. If not you either move on to the next one or pull out the wallet. And yes there are some with exceptional work that still pay for reasons of their own. None of that in any way affects me.

Dec 30 12 12:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Erica Jay
Posts: 151
New York, New York, US


Not everyone does this for free. If you want TF, don't be upset when you get a flaky, unprofessional model. So tired of photographers complaining about no shows when they don't want to pay for talent.
Dec 30 12 12:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Erica Jay
Posts: 151
New York, New York, US


If a model wants to be paid and you don't want to pay, then don't shoot her! Simple!
Dec 30 12 12:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kens Lens
Posts: 804
Aurora, Colorado, US


I've never had a model that I was paying no show, for that reason alone I find value in paying models.
Dec 30 12 12:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
r T p
Posts: 2,818
Los Angeles, California, US


erica jay wrote:
Not everyone does this for free. If you want TF, don't be upset when you get a flaky, unprofessional model. So tired of photographers complaining about no shows when they don't want to pay for talent.


f
ree == free

TF =/= free

Dec 30 12 12:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
orias
Posts: 4,977
Tampa, Florida, US


great all the logic has scared him off

now i will not have the chance to fly over to shoot for his art projects in exchange for a pat on the back and massive debt for my effort.

pout
Dec 30 12 01:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,174
Salem, Oregon, US


same for me. some guys have reported flakeage with paid models but i haven't seen  it yet.

Kens Lens wrote:
I've never had a model that I was paying no show, for that reason alone I find value in paying models.

Dec 30 12 01:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jean Renard Photography
Posts: 2,009
Los Angeles, California, US


Picasso said:  Amateurs do it for "art", Artists do it for money.


He went on to explain that without the ability to make money there was no time or resources to make the art.  Picasso was one of the best marketing brains in the art world.
Dec 30 12 01:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan OMell
Posts: 1,331
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


why some idiots (like me) never pay models.

compare two things --

(1) preparing a proper seed, planting, watering and growing it yourself or bringing it to Botanical Gardens and finally getting a beautiful rose. not just a look. an unique state of mind and possibilities for a creative co-operation.

versus:

(2) paying for a looking almost equally beautiful, but temporary and perishable imitation of the real flower commercially delivered to your door is never the same experience.

problems with paying bills? be a starving artist. good by many reasons. health, art, peace of mind, less stress, less consumption, more organized.

sometimes we forget to not be in a rat race, but directly enjoy the process.

why somebody wants to do something s/he does not really enjoy to just get paid, then uses the gotten money to buy what s/he really wants? make a short cut!

creative co-operation is the key. sometimes it even brings the real money. with problems. money bring more problems than solve.

Rembrandt was a really happy man when he finally stopped selling the booked paintings to wealthy snobs and started using the threadbare beggars or beautiful laundry girls in the streets as his models. he perfectly realized that nobody in his lifetime gonna buy those. he was happy when he was painting, and he did it 24/7.
do you really know how much the guy paid for shit? but you can see the result of his efforts. we're mortal.

if somebody will not shoot with you right now, self-improve every day.
travel. there are billions of people out there. don't be lazy. modelmayhem represents less than 0.00001% of them.

enjoyment is the key!
trying to kill two birds by one stone means to become one of the birds here.

when I'm not good enough (and I really am) to shoot with somebody for free, I have to self-improve to trigger their interest for free session. paying them is wasting my time as an potential artist.

IMHO
Dec 30 12 01:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
London Fog
Posts: 6,573
London, England, United Kingdom


Mark in MTL wrote:
Sometimes it's better to just pay and be done with it than deal with all the demands of and extra work of a TF agreement.

Yep, this sums it up nicely!

Dec 30 12 01:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ron Musser Photography
Posts: 107
Sacramento, California, US


everyone deserves to be paid, either through trade or monitarily. Without the model or the photographer no images would be made and no one would get paid.
Dec 30 12 01:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
tonyfromsyracuse
Posts: 374
Syracuse, New York, US


I will say one thing...all though I may be viewed as a chump paying models 100.00 for an hour long shoot sometimes more if they are a "MM star"....they always show up.God bless the traveling models. there is such hope in their eyes they dont get stiffed. I'm hoping to do a membership site someday so I'm just stockpiling their images, they never even get or see the images I've shot of them.

all I've got posted on my profile is regular girls who work at the mall or various colleges.
Dec 30 12 01:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bill Tracy Photography
Posts: 2,285
Montague, New Jersey, US


orias wrote:

stop being logical, you're ruining this lol

LOL!

Dec 30 12 01:43 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Koryn
Posts: 35,643
Asheville, North Carolina, US


Jean Renard Photography wrote:
Picasso said:  Amateurs do it for "art", Artists do it for money.


He went on to explain that without the ability to make money there was no time or resources to make the art.  Picasso was one of the best marketing brains in the art world.

Yup. Had I only done TFP, I wouldn't have been able to shoot even close to the amount of work I produced, nor could I have ever traveled outside of my home area. I would have been tied down to a 9-5 job during those years, which would have limited me to only shooting with a few people, sporadically, if at all.

Being able to market myself as a freelance model selling a "product," opened up a world of artistic opportunities, that simply would not have been there otherwise.

Dec 30 12 01:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,727
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


my understanding is that many of  the great Artists ( and by that I mean Painters ) paid their models a sitting fee
Dec 30 12 01:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Escalante
Posts: 5,367
Chicago, Illinois, US


Love the "art" excuse , it is BULLSHIT.
I am sure no 'ARTIST' will be willing to  frame ,
Matt , Prepare a show and then Give  the "artwork" away for free ...
       
Yes You got your camera for free because it was going to be used for "art"
Yes the rent on your place is free because you are a "artist"
Yes all the Bills in you world are Non existent because you are a "artist"
Everyone in the General Public should be "privileged" to have you in their Presence because you are a "ARTIST"

  As a Artist who was Born Drawing , as a artist who has his Degree in Fine art and as a Artist who had his first showing at 15 , and as a Artist who has Sold his paintings and has been published , I call Bullshit on that EXCUSE.

 
  So Please PAY for the work You produce , INVEST in your own art .
   Trust me Picasso PAID for his models as MANY Many MANY master Artist through out history have .

   
  "please don't pay models"  such bullshit .
 
   p.s. Not everyone will look at your work and consider it "art" ,One man's art is an other's Garbage ....

Being a "artist" Doesn't Excuse you or anyone else for getting things for free.
Dec 30 12 01:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan OMell
Posts: 1,331
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


photography? selling dreams
modeling? selling ideas of people

why necessarily drink from the same water pipe of rather very limited model supply as everybody else? paying your water bills?
why don't drink form a new well of fresh and pure crystal water?
dig!

why don't be ahead of some scouting agents that don't have enough resources to  monitor the local growing talents everywhere. you have an advantage.

I think the true photographer is a person who is capable to scout even the most experienced model and find something unknown in her. not to mention the new face in the streets.

it's all about scouting. paying the professional models for the same tricks of their arsenal could be a choice and some of them are really good. but could you spend thousands dollars per month to them just show up?

of course, professional photographers have a lot of pressure, deadlines, they're forced to work with many highly paid models. why you?

don't you have a sister, a girlfriend, her friends to start shooting with?
are you shy to approach a person with unique interesting look at the mall, library, gas station, gym, college?

I think it's much more interesting and challenging to do your best to find and expose the new, fresh talent yourself.

be creepy! you never gonna be more creepy than scouting agents anyways.
it's your job as a photographer.

selling dreams.
Dec 30 12 01:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rich Burroughs
Posts: 3,257
Portland, Oregon, US


Joseph William  wrote:

Um.  This is a bit of a tangent, but a lot of MM proves the opposite, there are tons of properly(ish) exposed images that are not interesting or composed very well at all.  The best camera can't tell you where to point it.

Yup. It's one thing to get lucky and take a good picture, another thing to do it consistently.

And that's one of the reasons to pay a good model. You'll get more high quality images which means you have more to work with/choose from. Or course if amazing models will shoot with you for free you don't have to worry about that, but that's not the case for most photographers.

Dec 30 12 02:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rich Burroughs
Posts: 3,257
Portland, Oregon, US


Jean Renard Photography wrote:
Picasso said:  Amateurs do it for "art", Artists do it for money.


He went on to explain that without the ability to make money there was no time or resources to make the art.  Picasso was one of the best marketing brains in the art world.

And if a model can't pay her bills, she'll stop modeling or have to cut back the time she can. This is one reason I don't talk to other photographers about who trades with me. I want the models I know to be able to book paid work, I don't want to make it harder for them.

Dec 30 12 02:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Christie Gabriel
Posts: 2,799
Chicago, Illinois, US


Jordan Bunniie wrote:
Why do you feel the need to come into the model forum saying we dont deserve to be paid?

Because he's a troll.

Dec 30 12 02:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Christie Gabriel
Posts: 2,799
Chicago, Illinois, US


orias wrote:
great all the logic has scared him off

now i will not have the chance to fly over to shoot for his art projects in exchange for a pat on the back and massive debt for my effort.

pout

He'd give ya more than that I bet. You could probably talk him into giving you a web-sized photo of i don't know...perhaps a ridiculous stuffed animal staring at your clitoris. Isn't that well worth the expenses you'd accrue right there?

Dec 30 12 02:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan OMell
Posts: 1,331
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


when I hear when a photog "helps" a model paying her bills...

don't feed the birds who gonna starve to death when you left your temporary summer cabin. you don't help, you corrupt the reality for them, adding to the popular mirage. 99.5% of models never gonna be able to survive by modeling. maybe it's good for her to have another job and more satisfied profession. look at the numbers. millions of girls cannot possibly out-compete each other enough, not to mention the with fresh supply of new dreamers every year.

the best you can do  is at least to try to capture something amazing for her. and, surprisingly, very often you just cannot do really amazing things for money, at the given point and time, by order. you cannot buy inspiration or talent. why you pay for photo session?
be a man, better pay her mortgage then smile! your $100 is nothing.

don't be in a false pretense that you're some kind of a "sponsor". your contribution is vanishingly small.  you're in the endless renewable army. it's all about quantity that adds up accumulating something to cover minimal expenses. nudes could be different, but not for long either.

at the end of the day, it's a picture on the wall. the question is how long it will be there after a person died? this is the target.
she or you cannot supply such pictures every day on the regular basis. it's not an assembly line....

just my opinion.
Dec 30 12 02:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

I always compensate models.  Cash, images, lodging, pizza, whatever.  No idea what difference it makes to you.

Dec 30 12 02:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,694
Vineland, New Jersey, US


erica jay wrote:
Not everyone does this for free. If you want TF, don't be upset when you get a flaky, unprofessional model. So tired of photographers complaining about no shows when they don't want to pay for talent.

While this is true on many levels, if a model doesn't want to shoot for whatever reason, they shouldn't say they want to and will meet a person at a certain place and time.  This is also true of photographers and everyone else, too, but just because one is shooting TF has no bearing on how unprofessional the model is or might be.

  There is such a thing as showing up, not taking direction well, not wanting to pose or stand next to a certain thing ... it's another to not show up at all. 

  I've heard of paid models not showing up, too.

Dec 30 12 02:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images By Joseph
Posts: 866
Naperville, Illinois, US


There is no correct answer as far as who pays who or not.
It comes down to what the parties all agree to.
Dec 30 12 02:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sekkides
Posts: 70
London, England, United Kingdom


Jordan Bunniie wrote:
Why do you feel the need to come into the model forum saying we dont deserve to be paid?

Because I think the OP is living in a dream-world where people don't need to be compensated for their time.

Dec 30 12 03:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
tonyfromsyracuse
Posts: 374
Syracuse, New York, US


God bless the traveling models!!  pay them well and treasure them.
Dec 30 12 03:06 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Koryn
Posts: 35,643
Asheville, North Carolina, US


Dan OMell wrote:
when I hear when a photog "helps" a model paying her bills...

don't feed the birds who gonna starve to death when you left your temporary summer cabin. you don't help, you corrupt the reality for them, adding to the popular mirage. 99.5% of models never gonna be able to survive by modeling....

There were periods of time where I would be out shooting, constantly for 2 weeks at a time. Like ALL other traveling jobs, I had to have a home to come back to, and food to eat when I got there -- which required being able to pay rent to keep a home to go back to, when a period of work was coming to a close.

Even the actual process of working as model requires money, just to get to and from shoots. A full-time model is often driving 300-500 miles per week, sometimes much more than that. How do you think the models are able to get to you? It costs. Even models who use public transportation only; they still have to pay to get to locations. They still have to be able to have some money to eat, and keep their phones working, and access to computers check emails.

These things I've mentioned (food, shelter, transportation and communication) are basic prerequisites to being just a functional member of contemporary society, with a very basic, decent quality of life, regardless of your profession. They all cost money.

Models are not superhuman. The basic necessities of getting by in this society do not just stop applying to you when you decide to live the life of a creative person.

There is no such thing as a "starving artist" anymore. You are either homeless, or you're not; I've never met anyone who wanted to be homeless.

Dec 30 12 03:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Escalante
Posts: 5,367
Chicago, Illinois, US


Dan OMell wrote:
when I hear when a photog "helps" a model paying her bills...

don't feed the birds who gonna starve to death when you left your temporary summer cabin. you don't help, you corrupt the reality for them, adding to the popular mirage. 99.5% of models never gonna be able to survive by modeling. maybe it's good for her to have another job and more satisfied profession. look at the numbers. millions of girls cannot possibly out-compete each other enough, not to mention the with fresh supply of new dreamers every year.

the best you can do  is at least to try to capture something amazing for her. and, surprisingly, very often you just cannot do really amazing things for money, at the given point and time, by order. you cannot buy inspiration or talent. why you pay for photo session?
be a man, better pay her mortgage then smile! your $100 is nothing.

don't be in a false pretense that you're some kind of a "sponsor". your contribution is vanishingly small.  you're in the endless renewable army. it's all about quantity that adds up accumulating something to cover minimal expenses. nudes could be different, but not for long either.

at the end of the day, it's a picture on the wall. the question is how long it will be there after a person died? this is the target.
she or you cannot supply such pictures every day on the regular basis. it's not an assembly line....

just my opinion.

the more you post the more delusional you are coming across as.

Dec 30 12 03:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


tonyfromsyracuse wrote:
WE.....need models more than they need us. so we have to offer an incentive otherwise it will be back to the days of bananas in a bowl.

the days of rock star photographers is coming to a close what with affordable cameras and intuitive software programs that can put hundreds of template sheens and concepts on pictures. I know thats difficult to swallow, but you've all seen the ports on MM.

yes many photos look amazing....but essencially you are seeing clones of the same poses and concepts....only the names and models are changed.
why pay? cause the models themselves here are finally starting to understand, they dont "need" us to take nude pictures of them.

they are starting to understand they are so beautiful...WE need them, which is why so many now, are moving towards... pay me.

Some of us don't always do "clones" and often find models willing to trade.  But that doesn't mean that (I) we think paying is wrong under the right conditions.

Dec 30 12 03:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
Platform Artist
Posts: 157
Chicago, Illinois, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

who is they?
what is a "true" photographer?
art is not considered as work?
not commercial use, dont pay?

Dec 30 12 03:19 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 20,903
New York, New York, US


indefinite anomaly wrote:
I prefer to be hired to model except with good friends or for use of images for my portfolio. Why? The photographer/artist is not obligated to provide me with images, and I'm able to focus on whatever the photographer/artist is envisioning.

This is my reason as well.  I don't pay a lot for fine art work that I do as it may never bring a return, but I do pay.  Why?  Because for me it isn't a collaboration.  I generally don't care what the model wants and don't want to be bothered with having to make sure that I take photos that the model feels will benefit her portfolio (in a traditional sense).  Also, sometimes I don't want to release images until a series is completed.  Paying a small fee (I only shoot maybe twenty or so frames per shoot) is worth it to me to not have to deal with the ongoing headache of trade. 

There are some models who want me to shoot them for a particular project and don't care if they get paid, these tend to be either people I already know or models who are familiar with my work and simply want to be a part of it.  Even then I try to do something nice for them as a thank you.

I do trade with friends, that's different, and generally how I work out concepts prior to beginning a project.

Dec 30 12 03:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 35,964
Columbus, Ohio, US


OP, are you serious? You're just looking for entertainment, right?

http://lelandrucker.com/wp-contents/uploads/2011/04/kilroy.jpg
Dec 30 12 03:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Undead Threads
Posts: 572
Greenville, South Carolina, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.

Model may not consider work as a art.

Model's need to get something out of the shoot too. She/he may not be interested in Yet, another nude shot of her/his self. So you have to have something other than photos to offer her. and most of the time that would involve Paying.

Dec 30 12 03:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPRINGHEEL
Posts: 38,004
Gibraltar, Michigan, US


Sacré Bleu!
Dec 30 12 03:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GCobb Photography
Posts: 15,885
Southaven, Mississippi, US


r4u wrote:
They say " every work must be paid"
I don't consider art as a work.
And a photograph (true one;) ) works too, no?
If there 's no commercial issue, don't pay models please!

I think what a model charges who for and who pays the models involves them only.

If a model will give me a shoot I want and it costs me, I don't have a problem with paying.  As a matter of fact I've got a shoot pending that I'll be paying at least gas money for.

Because models/customers pay me too.

Dec 30 12 03:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Babalon Salome
Posts: 3,499
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany


ShivaKitty wrote:
As a model, after a certain point, the vast majority of the people contacting you for shoots have nothing to offer you in the way of images anymore. There will always be a few exceptions, but by and large, you just stop being able to benefit from shooting with the bulk of those who want to shoot you.
orias wrote:
yeah why would you pay anyone for their time, their skills, their effort, etc.

that's just CRAZINESS

DONT PAY ANYONE PLEASE!   

if you're not making money off of your pipes,  DONT PAY YOUR PLUMBER PLEASE!

if you're not making money on your home, DONT PAY YOUR LANDLORD PLEASE!

if you're not making money off your pants,  DONT  PAY YOUR RETAILER PLEASE!

if you're not making money off your pot pie,  DONT PAY YOUR CAFE PLEASE!

if you're not making money off your water,  DONT PAY YOUR UTILITIES PLEASE!

if you pay these people and everyone else,   they will start to think they have any sort of value,  we would like them to start thinking that they are worthless and exist only to please us PLEASE

this is literally the dumbest thing i have heard all month and there has been some STIFF competition.

This.

I certainly do not need any Uncle Joe with a camera to take unflattering pictures of me - that's just how it is when a model has photographers regularly shooting for Vogue, Playboy, Elle or Glamour offering her trade, you know? - and I am not in this for charity to total strangers.

Oh, btw, every painter and sculptor I work with - even quite known ones, even friends - insists on paying me for the time, skill set and hard physical work I devout to THEIR art.

Dec 30 12 03:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GCobb Photography
Posts: 15,885
Southaven, Mississippi, US


Escalante wrote:

the more you post the more delusional you are coming across as.

True

Dec 30 12 03:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


orias wrote:
great all the logic has scared him off

now i will not have the chance to fly over to shoot for his art projects in exchange for a pat on the back and massive debt for my effort.

pout

I'm open to shooting with you in exchange for a pat on the back.  And maybe even pictures.

Dec 30 12 03:31 pm  Link  Quote 
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