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1234last
Photographer
Raoul Isidro Images
Posts: 6,080
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Jan 02 13 02:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kaouthia
Posts: 3,152
Lancaster, England, United Kingdom


So, if I'm understanding this right, the photographer was alive and well until he followed the cop's orders?
Jan 02 13 02:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
In Balance Photography
Posts: 3,370
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Kaouthia wrote:
So, if I'm understanding this right, the photographer was alive and well until he followed the cop's orders?

I did not see that in the article

Jan 02 13 03:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


In Balance Photography wrote:

I did not see that in the article

I did:
"Sgt Lopez said: 'He verbally ordered him to return to the vehicle, he had to order him twice and he seemed reluctant to go back, but eventually he did.
'When the photographer returned to the vehicle it did not appear that he looking and he was struck by a vehicle traveling southbound.'"


Had been left to carry on photographing the (empty) vehicle, he would probably have not been 'rushed' and might have been paying closer attention to other traffic...

Jan 02 13 03:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kaouthia
Posts: 3,152
Lancaster, England, United Kingdom


He said it again in the video.
Jan 02 13 03:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jason Haven
Posts: 38,287
Washington, District of Columbia, US


Yes, let's blame the cop. neutral
Jan 02 13 03:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


ASYLUM - Photo wrote:
Yes, let's blame the cop. neutral

Yes - let's...

...the photographer wasn't doing anything illegal and should not have been told to leave.

Jan 02 13 03:54 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 21,655
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


ASYLUM - Photo wrote:
Yes, let's blame the cop. neutral

Why not? Apparently the police didn't have adequate control of the scene. Let's face it the city and or police department is going to get sued.

Studio36

Jan 02 13 03:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photo212grapher
Posts: 1,538
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Kaouthia wrote:
So, if I'm understanding this right, the photographer was alive and well until he followed the cop's orders?

Had the photographer followed the first orders, he might have been alive and no story. Forcing the police to repeat the orders concluded in the photographer's death. You can spin it the other way as well.

Not looking where you are going or watching for traffic on a street is going to kill you someday.

Jan 02 13 04:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photo212grapher
Posts: 1,538
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


studio36uk wrote:

Why not? Apparently the police didn't have adequate control of the scene. Let's face the city and or police department is going to get sued.

Studio36

Great idea. Have the police shoot disobeying photographers' kneecaps and then drag them to safety. That places the police in adequate control of the situation. Of course the UK bobbies might need to bash some kneecaps with their nightsticks.

Or we can expect law abiding citizens to follow a legal order of the police the first time. Not doing so, means the citizen is no longer law abiding.

Jan 02 13 04:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kaouthia
Posts: 3,152
Lancaster, England, United Kingdom


photo212grapher wrote:
Had the photographer followed the first orders, he might have been alive and no story. Forcing the police to repeat the orders concluded in the photographer's death. You can spin it the other way as well.

If he was breaking no laws by being where he was and doing what he was doing (I don't know that he was or wasn't), why should the police have made the order in the first place?

All this event will do, is further fuel the "Is it legal to photograph cops doing their job in a public place?" debate that seems to be raging all over the USA and the UK.

I wouldn't be surprised if the photographer's family DID go after the cop if he was breaking no laws at the time he was "ordered" to leave.

photo212grapher wrote:
Not looking where you are going or watching for traffic on a street is going to kill you someday.

Of course. smile

Jan 02 13 04:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L Bass
Posts: 954
Nacogdoches, Texas, US


OK... I know you guys are wanting to ask this question, but are waiting for someone else to step up to the plate... So...

What kind of gear was he carrying and was it damaged?
Jan 02 13 04:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sam Comer Photography
Posts: 2,589
Knoxville, Tennessee, US


Maybe he wasn't doing anything illegal, but no one was arresting him, either. He was just told to go over there. Maybe the cop was aware that the little tone deaf runt was recently the target of a supposed "hit" and was just making sure he was safe. The paparazzo just made a poor decision afterward.

One of the first things we all learn as children is "look both ways before crossing the road," right?

Definitely a stupid and tragic way to die, but blaming the cop is pretty lame.
Jan 02 13 04:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kaouthia
Posts: 3,152
Lancaster, England, United Kingdom


Sam Comer Photography wrote:
One of the first things we all learn as children is "look both ways before crossing the road," right?

Definitely a stupid and tragic way to die, but blaming the cop is pretty lame.

Don't get me wrong, the photographer still well and truly deserves a Darwin Award, and I've nothing against cops (my brother in law is a cop in Boston), but a polite request is very different from an order.

If he was breaking no laws (again, I don't know whether he was or he wasn't), and wasn't impeding the cops' ability to do their job (again, I don't know whether he was or he wasn't - was he right up in their face with a 35mm, or 100ft down the road with a 70-200?), then what gave them the right to order him to do anything?

Jan 02 13 04:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L Bass
Posts: 954
Nacogdoches, Texas, US


Moral of the story.... If a cop tells you to do something... it's usually best to do what he says. After all, he's the one with the gun and the badge.
Jan 02 13 04:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
fullmetalphotographer
Posts: 2,739
Fresno, California, US


The shooter made a mistake, maybe he will learn form it in the next reincarnation if he is not a lower form of life.
Jan 02 13 05:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Glenn Hall - Fine Art
Posts: 431
Townsville, Queensland, Australia


...the next male model I get that has a Justin-mop-head is gonna get attacked with a set of sheep shears...and to the unlucky photog that ended up as road kill...look right, then left and then right again...
Jan 02 13 06:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Select Models
Posts: 35,594
Upland, California, US


fullmetalphotographer wrote:
The shooter made a mistake, maybe he will learn form it in the next reincarnation if he is not a lower form of life.

Exactly... and about being 'a lower form of life'... from some of the paparazzi I've met... that's a compliment.  Will the police get sued for causing this guy's death?  You may see some bottom feeding attorney try... but it will get tossed outta court after the on scene testimony from the officer above... wink

Jan 02 13 06:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PTPhotoUT
Posts: 1,959
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


photo212grapher wrote:
Or we can expect law abiding citizens to follow a legal order of the police the first time. Not doing so, means the citizen is no longer law abiding.

Actually, that may not have been a lawful order. Police often give unlawful orders. I once had a police officer ask to see the pics in my camera taken in a public place. Without a search warrant, not only is that not allowed, it is a felony.

Jan 02 13 06:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Randy C Photography
Posts: 188
Brooklyn, New York, US


PTPhotoUT wrote:

Actually, that may not have been a lawful order. Police often give unlawful orders. I once had a police officer ask to see the pics in my camera taken in a public place. Without a search warrant, not only is that not allowed, it is a felony.

had that happen a few times... im in brooklyn, ny. and quite often ill be out and about taking photos. a bird or something, and building security will bother me, call the cops and say im taking photos of a building im not allowed to... had a cop tell me i had to delet a photo... i simply said, its viewed from public and im legally allowed to photograph it, you, or anyone/thing on the street. he said well i have to see the photos. i said you can when i edit and publish them and walked away and went about my day.

Jan 02 13 06:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kaouthia
Posts: 3,152
Lancaster, England, United Kingdom


PTPhotoUT wrote:
Actually, that may not have been a lawful order. Police often give unlawful orders.

That was kinda my point too.  If he was breaking no laws by being where he was and doing what he was doing, was the order given lawfully?

Jan 02 13 07:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photo212grapher
Posts: 1,538
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


PTPhotoUT wrote:

Actually, that may not have been a lawful order. Police often give unlawful orders. I once had a police officer ask to see the pics in my camera taken in a public place. Without a search warrant, not only is that not allowed, it is a felony.

Asking is not an order. Ordering and taking the camera from you is. The police know to ask permission, and most people willing give it. Asking is perfectly legal. No different than me coming over and asking to see the images.

Is standing in the middle road legal? Depends on the local laws, and I will not waste my time researching to determine if doing something stupid is legal or illegal in the region where this accident happened. I know where I live, it is considered loitering and the police has every legal right to order you out of the traffic path. Also, if the police orders you off that street, and you elect to take a path down the road towards your car rather than walking directly to the curb, it is considered jaywalking here. Sue the cop, and I'd tell the cop to write two tickets against the corpse.

The one I feel for is the girl in the SUV. She needs to know the fault was with the photographer, not herself or the cop. I have a friend who ran over two kids horsing around on a dirt bike. One died at the scene. 30 some years later, he will not drive down that stretch of road. It still haunts him.

Jan 02 13 08:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,528
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


it is not necessary for you to be committing a criminal offence for the police to have the right to ask you to do something (move away, dont get closer, etc etc).  it is part of their duties. I've sued the police more than once for exceeding their jurisdiction, showing off in front of a junior at my expense, etc.  so let it be clear that I'm not a rabid fanboy.

But those who suggest that the police have no right unless he was committing a crime leave me shaking my head.
Jan 02 13 08:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Smedley Whiplash
Posts: 17,277
Billings, Montana, US


He was killed because he failed to look for traffic while crossing the street.

Being a Pedestrian 101.
Rule 1: Look both ways before crossing the street


We learn it in grade school. Some people are slower learners then others.
Jan 02 13 08:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


Kaouthia wrote:
If he was breaking no laws by being where he was and doing what he was doing (I don't know that he was or wasn't), why should the police have made the order in the first place?

All this event will do, is further fuel the "Is it legal to photograph cops doing their job in a public place?" debate that seems to be raging all over the USA and the UK.

I wouldn't be surprised if the photographer's family DID go after the cop if he was breaking no laws at the time he was "ordered" to leave.

I didn't get the impression he was killed because of any order to leave. Nor was he photographing the cops doing their job. He was trying to get a shot of Bieber and knowing the Paprazzi, was probably too close and asked to move back...just as any bystander would be.

Police don't like it when bystanders gravitate too close when they're trying to perform their job. There's no telling who might take a sudden interest. If he had been John the neighbor with no camera and was getting too close for comfort he would have been asked to step back or go back to his car. He wasn't ordered to stop taking photos...just to maintain a distance.

It wasn't the "order" that killed him. We all know what happened because we see it every day.

He saw Bieber's oh-so-subtle car, chased after it, saw it being stopped and moved in. When the police ordered him to back up he carelessly ran back to his car so he could follow the car once the police were finished and he got hit.

On another note: Is it just me or is this Bieber a total fraud? He whines and complains about Paparazzi following him and he's driving around in a vehicle that can be spotted from the next county. He also has a full chrome version doesn't he? He wants to be followed and noticed and then complains when it happens.

Jan 02 13 08:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gary Melton
Posts: 6,371
Dallas, Texas, US


Actually, I think it is illegal to stand in the middle of an open, active freeway.  Of course the police are going to order him to go back to his car - he was creating a hazard on a public roadway by standing in the middle of it.  If he parked his car completely off the roadway and was standing completely off the roadway - then he WAS breaking NO laws...but it sounds like he WAS standing in the roadway.  Otherwise, how did he get hit?  If he had been taking pictures while standing on the shoulder of the road, then he could have returned to his car by walking on the shoulder and not be in danger of being hit.  From the photos, it appears he was near the middle of the road when he was hit.

Let's place blame where it belongs - the police were simply doing their jobs, they are NOT to blame...the blame is squarely on the photographer who was in the middle of a freeway like an idiot and got killed for his stupidity.

Yes, there are bad apple cops, but most of them are simply human beings like you and me, just trying to enforce the law.  They are not monsters out to put down the rest of us.  Most of them are trying to do the right thing by everyone.  What kind of world would this be if there were NO cops to enforce the laws?  They are simply enforcing the laws that we all created.
Jan 02 13 08:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
V-R-Photo
Posts: 63
Rancho Palos Verdes, California, US


L Bass wrote:
Moral of the story.... If a cop tells you to do something... it's usually best to do what he says. After all, he's the one with the gun and the badge.

No, the moral is you always do what the guy with the gun says. The alternative is also listed in the article.

Jan 02 13 09:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kaouthia
Posts: 3,152
Lancaster, England, United Kingdom


Gary Melton wrote:
Actually, I think it is illegal to stand in the middle of an open, active freeway.

Nowhere in the article did it say he was standing "in the middle of an open, active freeway".  Sure he probably had to run across it (evidenced by the fact that he had to run back over to the other side of it to get back to his car when he got hit), but when he was ordered to leave, was he in the middle of the road?  Or was he safely off the side of it?

Jan 02 13 09:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Steven Bodo
Posts: 453
Seattle, Washington, US


Kaouthia wrote:
So, if I'm understanding this right, the photographer was alive and well until he followed the cop's orders?

The way I read it :

Man crosses highway, gets hit by car and dies. Nothing to do with anything else.

Jan 02 13 09:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Steven Bodo
Posts: 453
Seattle, Washington, US


besides, who the f*** wants to photograph Justin Bieber anyway?
Jan 02 13 09:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 27,204
Dearborn, Michigan, US


Steven Bodo wrote:
besides, who the f*** wants to photograph Justin Bieber anyway?

They do it to sell photos and make money!!    tongue

Jan 02 13 09:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gary Melton
Posts: 6,371
Dallas, Texas, US


Steven Bodo wrote:

The way I read it :

Man crosses highway, gets hit by car and dies. Nothing to do with anything else.

Exactamundo!!

Jan 02 13 09:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lars R Peterson
Posts: 1,072
Seattle, Washington, US


Steven Bodo wrote:
besides, who the f*** wants to photograph Justin Bieber anyway?

Exactly. Or his $200,000 car??! Out of all the $200,000 cars I have ever seen, that is one of the ugliest. I wouldn't pay more than $100,000 for it. It's an embarrassment to the Ferrarri name.

Jan 02 13 10:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
-The Dave-
Posts: 8,613
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


I knew that guy. Sad... he was a good kid, not an in your face type shooter, liked long glass and to stand off at a distance.
Jan 02 13 11:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MN camera
Posts: 1,860
Saint Paul, Minnesota, US


Steven Bodo wrote:
besides, who the f*** wants to photograph Justin Bieber anyway?
Jerry Nemeth wrote:
They do it to sell photos and make money!!    tongue

Sadly, true.

The real culpability has to be shared with the endless supply of fools who will line up to see images of mere products like Bieber.  If that market did not exist, paparazzi wouldn't either, and I do believe we'd be better off in multiple ways.

Cause and effect...

Celebrity-worship is just plain dumb.

Jan 02 13 12:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,612
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


RKD Photographic wrote:

Yes - let's...

...the photographer wasn't doing anything illegal and should not have been told to leave.

Doesn't matter and it's irrelevant in this issue.

When I was about five years old I remember pulling into the driveway of my home and getting out of the car. I wandered a bit out of my parent's supervision and got into the street where a car almost hit me. They swerved and leaned on the horn and my mother screamed in panic like I've never heard anyone scream before in my entire life. I learned a lesson that day...don't wander out into traffic without looking first or being sure it's safe to do so.

Obviously this idiot photographer wandered out into traffic without looking. Whether he was given orders or not is irrelevant. So what you're saying is the cop wanted him to wander out into traffic when it was unsafe? Of course not. But no, the photographer was probably looking at the shots he just got in his camera and paid no attention to the car that was about to hit and kill him. There are many circumstances that led up to his death, but ultimately nobody is to blame but him.

Jan 02 13 12:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photo by andy
Posts: 42
Rogers, Minnesota, US


yep
Jan 02 13 12:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,769
Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain


LOL gotta love the Model Mayhem lawyers & social pundits.

The whole thing is unfortunate...but people like that are a part of the entertainment industry "machine". They are employed in private and dissed in public...funny how they always know when certain celebs are "somewhere" accessible.

Anyway..nobody is getting sued because of a certain phrase in the law "but for your actions". He placed himself in that location and accepted the risks that come with stalking people. Now here we are.

The policia can ask you to leave any location if you are creating an issue.
Jan 02 13 01:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
j3_photo
Posts: 19,851
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Those of you wanting to blame the cop...or ask 'why not blame the cop?' 

you really need your heads checked.  The next time you stop on a busy freeway to take photos of some damn celeb or car...you LOOK for traffic.  You're not in a freaking parking lot.

Some of you on MM I swear.
Jan 02 13 01:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CBs Photography
Posts: 558
Ontario, California, US


Steven Bodo wrote:
besides, who the f*** wants to photograph Justin Bieber anyway?

Exactly!  He would still be alive today if he wasn't so hard up to take a picture of this over rated piece of garbage.  I think the Kardashians and him have finally taken over Oprah as the most over publisized people in the world today.  They must spend millions to have their crap put in our faces every minute of everyday.

Just another sign of the dumbing of our youth.

Jan 02 13 01:13 pm  Link  Quote 
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