MelissaAnn  wrote:

You've made my point, so there's no need for me to waste any more time going back and forth with you.  Although you may not see it, it will be pretty clear to many others reading this thread.  I'm not trying to convince you of anything at this point, Tony.

So instead of telling me how I contradicted myself you go with this.   Marvellous!   Years past I wrote a editor of Vogue.   This is a woman who I would venture receives hundreds of emails a week.   Not per day as the MM models do and she replied.   Maybe it wasn't actually her but it came with her name attached.   It was a email about a article.

MelissaAnn  wrote:

Wow, you're really slow.  Not all messages are "offers", not all offers are serious, and not all serious offers are for paid work.  That doesn't change the fact that some models have to sort through hundreds of *messages* which can take a lot of time.  So yes, you stand corrected.  BTW, everyone has the right to make time for a social life (facebook, etc).

Hey, don't call me slow.   I didn't insult you nor did I call you anything.   We can disagree but not be disagreeable.   Please don't do that again.

Garry k wrote:
Tony . if you have "rejection "issues - I would suggest taking them somewhere else rather clogging up this thread

I wasn't held as a child.   This isn't about me.   Its simply a conversation about replying to offers.   Do I sense some lingering resentment from you?

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I wasn't held as a child.

^^^ I would believe this.

Seriously, Tony.  You've made your point, I've made mine.  Done.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
So instead of telling me how I contradicted myself you go with this.   Marvellous!   Years past I wrote a editor of Vogue.   This is a woman who I would venture receives hundreds of emails a week.   Not per day as the MM models do and she replied.   Maybe it wasn't actually her but it came with her name attached.   It was a email about a article.

I just wanted to point out that your going on and on and on and on about this is an outstanding example of why so many models choose to *not* reply to messages.

I'm sure it wasn't your intent, but thank you for illustrating why many models might prefer to ignore a photographer rather than get drawn into an even bigger waste of time.

Hopefully we can now return to the original topic, which was MODELS perspectives on this, not yours.

DougBPhoto wrote:

I just wanted to point out that your going on and on and on and on about this is an outstanding example of why so many models choose to *not* reply to messages.

I'm sure it wasn't your intent, but thank you for illustrating why many models might prefer to ignore a photographer rather than get drawn into an even bigger waste of time.

Hopefully we can now return to the original topic, which was MODELS perspectives on this, not yours.

Geez, Doug, you're just so darn reasonable.

DougBPhoto wrote:

I just wanted to point out that your going on and on and on and on about this is an outstanding example of why so many models choose to *not* reply to messages.

I'm sure it wasn't your intent, but thank you for illustrating why many models might prefer to ignore a photographer rather than get drawn into an even bigger waste of time.

Hopefully we can now return to the original topic, which was MODELS perspectives on this, not yours.

Sorry everyone.   However once a model has replied and said no she is free to block and or not
reply again.   That was my only point.   Say something and if you change your mind just say so.   A model recently asked me to shoot.   I changed my mind later but I wrote and told her.   I didn't leave her hanging.   However this thread wasn't about me and I apologize for wasting everyone’s time.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I wasn't held as a child.   This isn't about me.   Its simply a conversation about replying to offers.   Do I sense some lingering resentment from you?

As a photographer I have about an 80 percent response rate from models I contact  and I sometimes wonder why I don't hear back from the other 20 percent

So for me - what the OP ( and other models )have written in this thread is informative and valuable 

and I want to hear more from the models so I may learn more

I also know that sometimes it's best to just sit back and listen

I am sure that most every photographer has an opinion on the matter of model non responsiveness and the reasons for such

but is it fair to the rest of us to fill this thread with your opinions - arguing every point that the OP and other models are trying to make

There is nothing stopping you from starting your own thread , say in response to  what is written by models  here

better than hijacking this one

Garry k wrote:

As a photographer I have about an 80 percent response rate from models I contact  and I sometimes wonder why I don't hear back from the other 20 percent

So for me - what the OP ( and other models )have written in this thread is informative and valuable 

and I want to hear more from the models so I may learn more

I also know that sometimes it's best to just sit back and listen

I am sure that most every photographer has an opinion on the matter of model non responsiveness and the reasons for such

but is it fair to the rest of us to fill this thread with your opinions - arguing every point that the OP and other models are trying to make

There is nothing stopping you from starting your own thread , say in response to this what is written by models  here

better than hijacking this one

I do castings.   I don't generally contact models directly.   I apologized for interrupting but I suspect your comments to me were not just about this thread.   Forums are supposed to be about opinions and not just from one side as another member pointed out and you didn't reply to him.   That said, its done.   If you have more rather then hijack this thread which you claim I did  by replying to me.   PM me via my profile.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I do castings.   I don't generally contact models directly.   I apologized for interrupting but I suspect your comments to me were not just about this thread.   Forums are supposed to be about opinions and not just from one side as another member pointed out and you didn't reply to him.   That said, its done.   If you have more rather then hijack this thread which you claim I did  by replying to me.   PM me via my profile.

Well Tony , I know you well enough ( from our time in the forums ) to know that when you get your teeth into something sometimes its hard for you to let go ( and thus I  sort of predicted what would transpire in this thread )



But that being said , my impression is that you are basically a decent fellow
and I have no personal issue with you

Garry k wrote:

Well Tony , I know you well enough ( from our time in the forums ) to know that when you get your teeth into something sometimes its hard for you to let go ( and thus I  sort of predicted what would transpire in this thread )



But that being said , my impression is that you are basically a decent fellow
and I have no personal issue with you

Agreed.   I'm a pit bull.   Decent fellow?   My ex-wife might not agree.   I used to live in Texas.   People say, howdy.   Everyone does.   I say, howdy back.   I admit to having a problem with people who seem to lack good manners and who ignore me or others.   I get the OP though.   We just disagree.

MelissaAnn  wrote:

When I was new to MM, I used to respond to absolutely everyone, and when I rejected an offer, I would always include a polite, but honest reason why.  The result?  A variety of "fuck you" type of responses. 

Then, I got wiser.  I would respond to all messages, and when I rejected an offer, I wouldn't include a reason why.  The result?  Usually a message back asking why, an honest response from me, then sometimes appreciation from the person on the other end, and sometimes the same variety of "fuck you" type of butthurt responses I mentioned above.

Then, I got wiser still. Now I trust my trust my instinct, use common sense, and use my past experience to determine who is worth responding to. The result?  I waste much less time corresponding with people I have absolutely no intention of working with, and I haven't received a "fuck you" type of response in ages. 

Verdict= my current system of responding to people based on common sense and past experience is working much better than my old system of always responding to everyone.

Give me an honest answer...that's what I want so I can go and fix, learn, change or do whatever it is I need to do to get better. You will get a thanks from me for giving me a solution to my problem or deficiency.

And for those that are getting butt hurt, stop complaining so that the ones who wa t to learn can learn.

xpLOsv21 Photography wrote:

Give me an honest answer...that's what I want so I can go and fix, learn, change or do whatever it is I need to do to get better. You will get a thanks from me for giving me a solution to my problem or deficiency.

And for those that are getting butt hurt, stop complaining so that the ones who wa t to learn can learn.

I looked at your work.   What do YOU feel you need to do too improve?   A models perspective aside.   She or he can't improve you.   Lets say I ask a model to shoot and she says I hate your use of Photoshop.   Should I stop using CS?   A male model asked me to shoot a week ago.   I don't shoot guys and unless he looks fantastic in a dress can't change that.   However I did tell him I don't shoot dudes but I replied.   If I'm at a club and I ask a pretty woman to dance.   Should she ignore me or say hey you smell bad so no.   

This wasn't about me being butt hurt as I would never approach the OP for a shoot nor do I ask models in general but is a conversation about how we should conduct ourselves.   You asked the OP to shoot and she never replied.   Is your work lacking?   Who's too say?   Was your approach insulting?   You don't know.   So what did you learn from no response?   If a model approached you to shoot and she wasn't your type.   Would you tell her no thanks or that she's too fat for you.   I come from the everyone deserves a reply view.   Apparently,  I'm wrong.

xpLOsv21 Photography wrote:
Well, not throwing MelissaAnn under the bus, but she didn't respond to my email... What did I think. I was thinking she thought my work was not good enough YET to have her in my port. Totally understandable. I realized this may have been true when Foto Gregor ripped my stuff apart...which I thanked him for. So what am I doing now to correct this...getting my shit together. Trying to find photographers that I can assist, enrolled in photography school, and shooting what I can, when I can, and where I can. Photoshop is a "beach" to learn, so I am writing a manual VERBATIM...in my own words to get an understanding of it all. 

So the next time I contact someone I contacted before, they will be like "hells yeah, I will work with you..."

That's a great attitude, and similar to the one I had when I started modeling.  My messages/TF inquiries to several photographers were ignored or rejected when I was new and didn't have a lot of good work posted.  I have actually worked with a few of those same photographers, and have no hard feelings toward them.  I never expected great photographers to want to work with me, or even respond to me when I was new.  I hoped, but never expected. 

You seem to have a positive attitude, and take responsibility for your own success....I have a feeling you will make great progress in 2013.  Continued luck with your photography! 

Edit:  Oh, and since you like feedback so you can improve, I'll tell you why I didn't respond to your message.  You're brand new (very high chance of butthurt responses from a lot of unrealistic newbies), your work is not terribly good yet (you already know that), your message did not clearly state whether you were interested in paid or TF (I assumed TF),  and the first line of your pm was off-putting.  Don't share that sort of info with models you're interested in collaborating with, they don't care, and it can give people the idea that you may have ulterior motives.  Hope this helps!

Farenell Photography wrote:
1. You've proven my point. What you described is not "insulting", its "not respecting another person's time."

A- So you're time got wasted

Apodyopsis wrote:
1) and again, not showing someone respect ISNT insulting? HOW?
A- six years into it, I think I know.

The point is its foolish to expect people to be mind-readers off the get-go. You can't expect people to share the same reference points.

A case in point: Back in the day, I worked w/ a model. & in my directions I told her to suck in her stomach. Instead of saying something, she choose to keep her mouth closed & worked through the discomfort & found out later through mutual photographers that she felt I was insulting & "felt like a piece of meat".

I'm a guy plus I was in the Marines for 4 years, prior to that incident it never in a million years occurred to me that I was being "insulting". Had she spoken up & I could have easily modified my directions to something that was less "insulting."

Apodyopsis wrote:
2) Again, I never said there was a harm in asking, and if it works for you great. This thread is about why you might not have gotten a response, thus its NOT working for you. My explanation is how your "no harm in asking" mightve actually been harmful, and if thats a possibility as to why you didnt get a response, try being more realistic and offering something useful to the model you want to work with instead of just crossing your fingers and hoping all the time.

Its the same deal as above, its foolish to assume we all have the same value set. What's an absurd offer to you is perfectly reasonable to someone else.

Case in point...I often have travel models solicit for paid work. From contacting this traveling model during a previous trip, I knew her regular rates. So when she came through again I was contacted & told her what my budget was. She declined, citing that it "wasn't reasonable based on what she's normally able to get." Whatever, no harm - no foul. Later during her trip, things fell through & my budget offer was accepted. What was once an unreasonable offer, suddenly became reasonable.

Nevermind, forget it.

If however you work works for you, who am I to stop you? I just think that by blowing off offers you initially think are insulting, models could be shooting themselves in the foot.

Ramon Bryce wrote:
Good info. A number of times in this business too is that models get very very busy in waves. The business comes in waves that you can't always predict and people have to be understanding to those situations. This is a dynamic business.

My scheduling or work load is the biggest reason I'm not able to respond to all of my messages, but several of your reasons are also my reasons for not responding on my end.

I agree, the work often comes in waves, and good to know that some photographers have similar reasons for not responding.

BTW, you do amazing work.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

My bad.

No I think what you said was right on... Your Good!

MelissaAnn  wrote:
Wow, you're really slow.  Not all messages are "offers", not all offers are serious, and not all serious offers are for paid work.  That doesn't change the fact that some models have to sort through hundreds of *messages* which can take a lot of time.  So yes, you stand corrected.  BTW, everyone has the right to make time for a social life (facebook, etc).

+1.  You have no idea how much jibberish I get in my inbox.  I would love to get an inbox full of coherent, succinct, messages that outline: the project, the pay, the location/time, and other important details.

Unfortunately I get things like this:

Wanna shoot?
Ur hot. 
We could make beautiful art together.
Sup! (insert phone number) text me.

I also have gotten several *extremely* long messages where I couldn't even decipher what on earth they were asking me for.

Jackson frontier photos wrote:
Ok, I just wanted to celebrate that models like you do exist.  Because saying no thanks and hitting send takes about 5 seconds.

We do indeed exist.


On the flip side, when I submit to a casting, I'd actually prefer not to be contacted if the person isn't interested.

If I booked the job, tell me. If I didn't....no reply is perfectly acceptable.

Saves me time going through my inbox

Lanna_ wrote:
If someone sends me an inquiry that looks something like this, I can almost certainly guarantee that I will get a response back in a timely manner.  It may be a yes or no, but it will be a response.

Hi Lanna, (note how they used my name - I can tell it's not a completely blatant copy/paste)

I like your look, I especially like the work you did with (insert evidence of looking at my portfolio).

I'm looking to shoot a half day of (insert genre) and I have a mood board up here (link to evidence of actually putting thought into the shoot).

I'm hoping to shoot (insert range of dates) in (name of town).   

I (will or will not) have MU/H/styling available.

Take a look at my portfolio here (link to professional portfolio) and let me know if you're interested.

In return for your time, I can offer (TF edited images, money, barter, etc)

Thanks,
Coherent Non-creepy Photographer

I'd love to see more messages/offers built on this template. Spares several rounds of email/message tag and is clear and concise.

Lanna_ wrote:
I would love to get an inbox full of coherent, succinct, messages that outline: the project, the pay, the location/time, and other important details.

With your look at 5'8" and 115, you would certainly get all of that from me if you were in my area.

But, Modely Mayhem is what it is.

Lanna_ wrote:
If someone sends me an inquiry that looks something like this, I can almost certainly guarantee that I will get a response back in a timely manner.  It may be a yes or no, but it will be a response.

Hi Lanna, (note how they used my name - I can tell it's not a completely blatant copy/paste)

I like your look, I especially like the work you did with (insert evidence of looking at my portfolio).

I'm looking to shoot a half day of (insert genre) and I have a mood board up here (link to evidence of actually putting thought into the shoot).

I'm hoping to shoot (insert range of dates) in (name of town).   

I (will or will not) have MU/H/styling available.

Take a look at my portfolio here (link to professional portfolio) and let me know if you're interested.

In return for your time, I can offer (TF edited images, money, barter, etc)

Thanks,
Coherent Non-creepy Photographer

Yes, that would be lovely

Garry k wrote:
But that being said , my impression is that you are basically a decent fellow
and I have no personal issue with you

Garry k just needs a big hug, really.

Cuica Cafezinho wrote:

With your look at 5'8" and 115, you would certainly get all of that from me if you were in my area.

But, Modely Mayhem is what it is.

Aw, thanks for the kind words    

All the way in Wisconsin?  I'd happily set up a TFC - trade for cheese   I've always wanted to visit the cheese factories.  We have one in Oregon but I'm guessing Wisconsin is a whole different league!

Lanna_ wrote:
If someone sends me an inquiry that looks something like this, I can almost certainly guarantee that I will get a response back in a timely manner.  It may be a yes or no, but it will be a response.

Hi Lanna, (note how they used my name - I can tell it's not a completely blatant copy/paste)

I like your look, I especially like the work you did with (insert evidence of looking at my portfolio).

I'm looking to shoot a half day of (insert genre) and I have a mood board up here (link to evidence of actually putting thought into the shoot).

I'm hoping to shoot (insert range of dates) in (name of town).   

I (will or will not) have MU/H/styling available. (List who's on the team, if there is one.)

Take a look at my portfolio here (link to professional portfolio) and let me know if you're interested.

In return for your time, I can offer (TF edited images, money, barter, etc)

Thanks,
Coherent Non-creepy Photographer

Hell, I'd love to have that much information when first approaching a model.

Unfortunately, I've found HMUAS&D (hair, makeup, stylists and designers) care who the model is (if trade), and getting them to come in for a personal project depends on the model, and it would not make sense to ask 3 people to agree to trade before ever contacting the model.

The same applies to a mood board, not only does that depend on who's coming in as HMUAS&D but it also depends on what is ideal for a given model, and could be a bit much to expect someone to prepare before they have even contacted you.

Given all that (and more), that is definitely an ideal template, even if it isn't realistic (at least I would not expect it to be realistic for most of the shooters on this site.)

However, for a totally creepy comment, I'm thinking of going to Wisconsin in Sept.... road trip!! LOL

DougBPhoto wrote:
Hell, I'd love to have that much information when first approaching a model.

Unfortunately, I've found some HMUAS&D (hair, makeup, stylists and designers) care who the model is, and getting them to come in for a personal project depends on the model, and it would not make sense to ask 3 people to agree to trade before ever contacting the model.

The same applies to a mood board, not only does that depend on who's coming in as HMUAS&D but it also depends on what is ideal for a given model, and could be a bit much to expect someone to prepare before they have even contacted you.

Given all that (and more), that is definitely an ideal template, even if it isn't realistic (at least I would not expect it to be realistic for most of the shooters on this site.)

However, for a totally creepy comment, I'm thinking of going to Wisconsin in Sept.... road trip!! LOL

Yeah, it is asking a bit much from the average MM hobbyist. I get a nice one like that once in a rare while.  I get happy about it.

The MUA/H/styling is kind of a linchpin for me though.  It will make a huge difference if someone is asking TF and looking to assemble a team or expecting me to do everything myself.  I just need to know what they intend before I think of committing to shoot.

I also like to see a list or moodboard just because I get too many conversations like this:

photographer: I was hoping to shoot.
me: What genre/concepts are you going for?
photographer: I'm not sure, I was hoping you'd have some ideas. Maybe dark and edgy?

I just need some evidence that they have a concept and have spent time developing the concept to the point where I know what to generally expect and we can actually carry it out. 

"I want to shoot dark and edgy" is not useful to me.  I have no idea what that means to you and if it's something useful to me or not.  I'm not going to commit to anything that vague. 

I know some people enjoy minimal prep, but in my personal experience I've gotten the best results with a developed concept and full team.  And it can still be creative and collaborative at the same time.  We just have a stronger base to spring from.