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Photographer
Sung Han
Posts: 12
New York, New York, US


Hi guys,

I've got a hair client shoot next week and would appreciate feedback on how to achieve these 2 looks with lights.

1.
http://www.penteadosecabelos.com/wp-con … s/1-25.jpg

I'm thinking using a 70-200 with two backlights to key out the background to white. Model placed about 10 feet from the back wall. Two v cards on either side of the model to catch any spill from the backlight. And one key light 25inch beauty dish about 12 foot camera right. Do you think I need a fill light? There's some shadow on her left but I'm not sure if there is another light in there.


2. http://www.fashionmagazine.com/blogs/fa … -february/

Again, probably a 70-200. I don't know how much space is between the model and wall. (Is the shadow psed or is she actually near the wall? For the light, I'm thinking a beauty dish again above and behind where I'm standing. and 11 feet up. Or should I use a profoto 8ft? Is this used with 1 or 2 light? Seems like there is a light on camera left for hair?

Thank you all for your help in advance. I would love to discuss with anyone here for techniques, diagram. smile

Best,
Sung
Jan 03 13 06:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,532
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Sung Han wrote:
Hi guys,

I've got a hair client shoot next week and would appreciate feedback on how to achieve these 2 looks with lights.

1.
http://www.penteadosecabelos.com/wp-con … s/1-25.jpg

I'm thinking using a 70-200 with two backlights to key out the background to white. Model placed about 10 feet from the back wall. Two v cards on either side of the model to catch any spill from the backlight. And one key light 25inch beauty dish about 12 foot camera right. Do you think I need a fill light? There's some shadow on her left but I'm not sure if there is another light in there.


2. http://www.fashionmagazine.com/blogs/fa … -february/

Again, probably a 70-200. I don't know how much space is between the model and wall. (Is the shadow psed or is she actually near the wall? For the light, I'm thinking a beauty dish again above and behind where I'm standing. and 11 feet up. Or should I use a profoto 8ft? Is this used with 1 or 2 light? Seems like there is a light on camera left for hair?

Thank you all for your help in advance. I would love to discuss with anyone here for techniques, diagram. smile

Best,
Sung

1. why would you use a beauty dish so far away? BDs effect is felt close in.

2. this is a cover and whatever was shot has been edited out but again why use a BD so far away?  defeats the whole purpose of one.

Jan 03 13 06:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Sung Han wrote:
I've got a hair client shoot next week and would appreciate feedback on how to achieve these 2 looks with lights.

This is not something you should be trying for the first time in front of a paying client.

My advice would be to refer your client to a photographer who specialises in this kind of work.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jan 03 13 06:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rik Williams
Posts: 3,363
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
This is not something you should be trying for the first time in front of a paying client.

My advice would be to refer your client to a photographer who specialises in this kind of work.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano




www.stefanobrunesci.com

I agree 100%

Jan 03 13 07:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Shipstad
Posts: 4,617
Burbank, California, US


First off.. how many lights do you have (speedlites and/or studio strobes).. and what kind of light modifiers do you have to work with?
Jan 03 13 07:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SKITA Studios
Posts: 1,564
Boston, Massachusetts, US


I would have guessed fill in the first photo but I don't see any reflections in her eyes.  There might just be a lot of fill from the high key bouncing around the room with white walls.

For the 2nd shot, it looks like a one light shot but with something more diffused like an octabox from the shadows.

Neither look that hard to do...
Jan 03 13 07:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sung Han
Posts: 12
New York, New York, US


Patrick Shipstad wrote:
First off.. how many lights do you have (speedlites and/or studio strobes).. and what kind of light modifiers do you have to work with?

Hey Patrick... is that sam on your cover? I shot with her months back. What a small world.

For lights, I have a $200 budget and I'm planning on renting from Samy's, where I usually go. I want to stick with 3 lights max with 1 generator. Modifiers, anything goes.

Jan 03 13 07:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan K Photography
Posts: 5,409
STATEN ISLAND, New York, US


You really should try this out with a test first before you do it with a client.
Jan 03 13 07:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wicked LA Pix
Posts: 386
Yucaipa, California, US


Wow, I REALLY have to disagree with Brunesci and Ric Image. I assume you will be doing multiple shots. It sounds like you are fairly familiar with lighting so why not try a couple different setups and see if you can achieve a certain look you are looking for. Then do a few shots with lighting setups you are experienced with. I do agree with AVD that I believe the bd should be closer around 6 Ft. Other then that sound like you are on the right track to me. Give it your best shot!

Just my $ 0.02
Jan 03 13 07:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sung Han
Posts: 12
New York, New York, US


Wicked LA Pix wrote:
Wow, I REALLY have to disagree with Brunesci and Ric Image. I assume you will be doing multiple shots. It sounds like you are fairly familiar with lighting so why not try a couple different setups and see if you can achieve a certain look you are looking for. Then do a few shots with lighting setups you are experienced with. I do agree with AVD that I believe the bd should be closer around 6 Ft. Other then that sound like you are on the right track to me. Give it your best shot!

Just my $ 0.02

Haha, yea, I kind of laughed when I read that. I do have a basic grasp with lighting and I do plan on testing the night before. Thanks for the feedback about the bd.

Jan 03 13 07:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sung Han
Posts: 12
New York, New York, US


Dan K Photography wrote:
You really should try this out with a test first before you do it with a client.

fosho

Jan 03 13 07:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MarcMarayag
Posts: 77
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
[
1. why would you use a beauty dish so far away? BDs effect is felt close in.

2. this is a cover and whatever was shot has been edited out but again why use a BD so far away?  defeats the whole purpose of one.

maybe because he can? with your logic no one should ever use a 22" bd for full body as well just for headshot's

i use my bd far away on location shoots as well since i still want a contrasty light

and i see a lot of people use one for fill/second light

there are no set rules for it

Jan 03 13 07:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,532
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


MarcMarayag wrote:

maybe because he can? with your logic no one should ever use a 22" bd for full body as well just for headshot's

i use my bd far away on location shoots as well since i still want a contrasty light

and i see a lot of people use one for fill/second light

there are no set rules for it

at that distance its not going to have the BD light so why bother using one? BDs are heavy and require weights and shit sometimes.  sub in anything for the same light. I can use a cleaver to peel carrots (ive done it) but if I have something that works as well or better and weighs less than a cleaver I'm gonna reach for it.  its not a matter of rules. it's a matter of what works.  you can put a BD 20 ft away on a high stand and pretend its the sun if you want.  It will be pretty much a point source at 20.

Jan 03 13 07:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RONALD NZ TAN
Posts: 2,381
San Francisco, California, US


I remember watching this video from Mr. Armenta and I think the beauty light is what you're looking for.

http://vimeo.com/42228582

If not, at the least, you will be inspired to think about the setup and test it with a friend or an agency model before the actual deployment with your client.


Sung Han wrote:
Hi guys,

I've got a hair client shoot next week and would appreciate feedback on how to achieve these 2 looks with lights.

1.
http://www.penteadosecabelos.com/wp-con … s/1-25.jpg

I'm thinking using a 70-200 with two backlights to key out the background to white. Model placed about 10 feet from the back wall. Two v cards on either side of the model to catch any spill from the backlight. And one key light 25inch beauty dish about 12 foot camera right. Do you think I need a fill light? There's some shadow on her left but I'm not sure if there is another light in there.


2. http://www.fashionmagazine.com/blogs/fa … -february/

Again, probably a 70-200. I don't know how much space is between the model and wall. (Is the shadow psed or is she actually near the wall? For the light, I'm thinking a beauty dish again above and behind where I'm standing. and 11 feet up. Or should I use a profoto 8ft? Is this used with 1 or 2 light? Seems like there is a light on camera left for hair?

Thank you all for your help in advance. I would love to discuss with anyone here for techniques, diagram. smile

Best,
Sung

Jan 03 13 08:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,793
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Wicked LA Pix wrote:
Wow, I REALLY have to disagree with Brunesci and Ric Image. I assume you will be doing multiple shots. It sounds like you are fairly familiar with lighting so why not try a couple different setups and see if you can achieve a certain look you are looking for. Then do a few shots with lighting setups you are experienced with. I do agree with AVD that I believe the bd should be closer around 6 Ft. Other then that sound like you are on the right track to me. Give it your best shot!

Just my $ 0.02

I think what he meant to say was "if you have to ask about something this simple...best not learn on a shoot where you are going to waste someone's time".

I prolly would have said it much more plain...

Jan 03 13 08:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Urbiefoto
Posts: 92
Arlington, Virginia, US


I agree with the posters above - if it's a paying client I would hand it off to someone else.  Failing that, prepare, prepare, prepare.  Test the set-ups before with a stand-in.  Get your metering right and your lights set-up.  I would not use a BD so far away from the model.  It defeats the purpose.
Jan 03 13 08:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DennisRoliffPhotography
Posts: 1,928
Akron, Ohio, US


How are you getting 'clients' when you don't know how to achieve the looks that you want? This baffles me. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/huh.gif
Maybe your definition of 'client' is different?
Jan 03 13 08:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sung Han
Posts: 12
New York, New York, US


because everyday i'm hustlin.
Jan 03 13 08:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,793
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Jan 03 13 08:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MarcMarayag
Posts: 77
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

at that distance its not going to have the BD light so why bother using one? BDs are heavy and require weights and shit sometimes.  sub in anything for the same light. I can use a cleaver to peel carrots (ive done it) but if I have something that works as well or better and weighs less than a cleaver I'm gonna reach for it.  its not a matter of rules. it's a matter of what works.  you can put a BD 20 ft away on a high stand and pretend its the sun if you want.  It will be pretty much a point source at 20.

yea you dont have too much experience with a bd im assuming  -  shoot a 22" bd 10ft from your subject and then shoot an umbrella - it will have a different look
- cause it's a different modifier

not your definition of a bd look - but it's still a bd look

Jan 03 13 09:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sung Han
Posts: 12
New York, New York, US


Jan 03 13 09:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Sung Han wrote:
I do have a basic grasp with lighting and I do plan on testing the night before.

That should give your client some confidence hmm

Seriously, can you hear yourself?




Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jan 03 13 09:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sung Han
Posts: 12
New York, New York, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

That should give your client some confidence hmm

Seriously, can you hear yourself?




Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Dude Stefano,

chill out man... yes, I can hear myself pretty damn well.

Jan 03 13 10:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rickspix_uk
Posts: 100
Southend-on-Sea, England, United Kingdom


I would suggest you try a couple of days in advance, that way if your not happy with the results you have time to rethink and tweek your setup which you wont have if you wait til the nite before !
Jan 03 13 11:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Nettles
Posts: 31
Charleston, South Carolina, US


I'm sorry, I'm really not meaning to be rude, but I feel both of those examples are very easy and pretty basic. My advice would be what everyone else is saying: just try it out. I really believe you're just over thinking the whole set up. You seem to know what you're talking about and you claim to have a basic understanding of using a studio lighting set-up be confident that you can pull this off - no need to ask for help. The first example can be done easily with one light and a reflector and the second example is pretty much the same...
Jan 03 13 11:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Shipstad
Posts: 4,617
Burbank, California, US


Man.. seems like some people come to the party just to piss in the punch bowl.

Yes that is Sam.. she was great to work with!

Anyway.. for the first beauty shot.. I'd suggest a beauty dish. But bring that puppy in close and use a bounce board around her chest to bounce some light back up, filling any shadows.

I did a little beauty lighting tutorial that should get you the same results with the exception of the backdrop (which was dark and colored) Check it out, and then just substitute a white background and blow out the backdrop. Be sure not to go too blown out as it can cause light to come bounce back into the camera, causing flare and lower contrast. I find a 1 to 1-1/2 stops brighter than the key light works. If it's not blown out enough, you can clean up any white background issues in post. Here's the link..

http://fadedandblurred.com/tutorials/glam-slam/

As for the 2nd shot, I'd go for a large octabox if you can get one and again, bring it in close to the model to get light wrap around on the model.

Good luck! :-)
Jan 03 13 11:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ImageX
Posts: 998
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Since when does a BD HAVE to be used at proper BD lengths??? Is it not allowed to shoot it far away or something? lol Does the light turn off from a distance?  IT will obviously throw a different kind of light but light is light and anything goes in photography. I use my BD up close as it's intended use.... and from a distance on location. Works just fine for me and is a very easy set up. Saying you cannot use a BD from a distance is just dumb. I think most photographers know how to properly use a BD and adding other uses with it makes it that much more useable.
Jan 04 13 05:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,456
Paris, Île-de-France, France


Okay for two lights on the white wall, V flats. A BD though would be best replaced by an octal or box light if that is all you have. A BD can be really nice but is not really for hair light from so far away. For fill if you have the light towards the camera you can just use a reflector, no need for yet another source.
Jan 04 13 05:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,319
Orlando, Florida, US


ImageX wrote:
Since when does a BD HAVE to be used at proper BD lengths??? Is it not allowed to shoot it far away or something? lol Does the light turn off from a distance?  IT will obviously throw a different kind of light but light is light and anything goes in photography. I use my BD up close as it's intended use.... and from a distance on location. Works just fine for me and is a very easy set up. Saying you cannot use a BD from a distance is just dumb. I think most photographers know how to properly use a BD and adding other uses with it makes it that much more useable.

No one is saying you CAN'T use a BD at 20 feet.
We're saying WHY.

Why use a purposely built 22" heavy modifier if a small 7" directional dish would behave exactly the same? Or a bare bulb.

If you WANT to cut down a tree with a butter knife, no one will tell you it's impossible. Just silly.

Jan 04 13 05:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ImageX
Posts: 998
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
No one is saying you CAN'T use a BD at 20 feet.
We're saying WHY.

Why use a purposely built 22" heavy modifier if a small 7" directional dish would behave exactly the same? Or a bare bulb.

If you WANT to cut down a tree with a butter knife, no one will tell you it's impossible. Just silly.

I thought we were talking BD in general which usually has a close up range. Only a 22" shouldn't be used from a distance or? Emily Soto(example)routinely throws BD light from a distance and does phenominal work. Will you tell her that is silly and there is something better for HER purposes? If something can be used other than it's intended purpose and get good results, wouldn't it be silly to spend money elsewhere? Versatility is a great thing in photography. Use it up close... back up and use it for another look without having to put on a reflector. Besides, wouldn't a 22" BD at 8-10 ft throw softer light than a much smaller 7" reflector. One is is larger AND also a bounced source. Maybe not nearly as efficient but still.

Jan 04 13 05:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Pixsrbious Productions
Posts: 91
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Just do it.....   You got your foot in the door.....  How do you think everyone else started?   Find a pro with lots of experience to assist who knows the ropes, they will save your &*& in a pinch.  Been there done that.  Good luck
Jan 04 13 05:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,532
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


MarcMarayag wrote:

yea you dont have too much experience with a bd im assuming  -  shoot a 22" bd 10ft from your subject and then shoot an umbrella - it will have a different look
- cause it's a different modifier

not your definition of a bd look - but it's still a bd look

nice critique lol.  as others have said, and you clearly dont understand, you can do it.  you can use a ferrari to move apartments and leave the truck at home.  you can use a butter knife to cut down a tree (as someone said). but if a simple reflector does the same fkn thing at 20 ft why use a BD?  just to impress with size?  and your example is irrelevant. of course an umbrella will look different. it is spillaceous.  but will a simple 7" reflector at that distance?  Of course not. I begin to think you are just trolling and chose me as a target because my post count is lower than Good Egg's (or something).  I'm off to Tremblant to visit my mom and ride the fresh powdah for the day.  Go argue with the Egg while I'm gone. Let me know how that turns out smile

Jan 04 13 06:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,532
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


ImageX wrote:

I thought we were talking BD in general which usually has a close up range. Only a 22" shouldn't be used from a distance or? Emily Soto(example)routinely throws BD light from a distance and does phenominal work. Will you tell her that is silly and there is something better for HER purposes? If something can be used other than it's intended purpose and get good results, wouldn't it be silly to spend money elsewhere? Versatility is a great thing in photography. Use it up close... back up and use it for another look without having to put on a reflector. Besides, wouldn't a 22" BD at 8-10 ft throw softer light than a much smaller 7" reflector. One is is larger AND also a bounced source. Maybe not nearly as efficient but still.

i have to go to Tremblant for the day but someone should try it.  I think we begin to argue at cross purposes by each using their own distance.  I've tried it at 15ft. both are basically the same.  I work closer in (i'm a traditionalist). big difference.  is it the same at 6ft? 10? 12?  when does it stop making a difference?

I look forward to seeing the results.

Jan 04 13 06:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chuck Purnell
Posts: 322
Wilmington, Delaware, US


In that last video example you posted above, at 1:07 is that smaller BD that is slightly off center in front of the model, is that what is putting the glow on the background behind the model on the background paper?

Jan 04 13 07:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,793
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Chuck Purnell wrote:

In that last video example you posted above, at 1:07 is that smaller BD that is slightly off center in front of the model, is that what is putting the glow on the background behind the model on the background paper?

I think so..can't be sure. You can always email the photographer and ask..

Jan 04 13 08:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MarcMarayag
Posts: 77
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
nice critique lol.  as others have said, and you clearly dont understand, you can do it.  you can use a ferrari to move apartments and leave the truck at home.  you can use a butter knife to cut down a tree (as someone said). but if a simple reflector does the same fkn thing at 20 ft why use a BD?  just to impress with size?  and your example is irrelevant. of course an umbrella will look different. it is spillaceous.  but will a simple 7" reflector at that distance?  Of course not. I begin to think you are just trolling and chose me as a target because my post count is lower than Good Egg's (or something).  I'm off to Tremblant to visit my mom and ride the fresh powdah for the day.  Go argue with the Egg while I'm gone. Let me know how that turns out smile

im not trolling - the fact that you are so adamant about not using one - at the distance i am giving is 10feet  just astounds me.  because 10 feet from the model it is still noticeable it doesn't give you the tzone beauty look.  there's another reason to use a bd vs an umbrella - you can grid it and it's still more directional

Good egg didn't dismiss the fact that it was stupid to use a bd at beyond 5feet 

im sorry if it came off rude - i dont like it when people don't give good advice and are very closed about the subject

Jan 04 13 10:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MarcMarayag
Posts: 77
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


ImageX wrote:

I thought we were talking BD in general which usually has a close up range. Only a 22" shouldn't be used from a distance or? Emily Soto(example)routinely throws BD light from a distance and does phenominal work. Will you tell her that is silly and there is something better for HER purposes? If something can be used other than it's intended purpose and get good results, wouldn't it be silly to spend money elsewhere? Versatility is a great thing in photography. Use it up close... back up and use it for another look without having to put on a reflector. Besides, wouldn't a 22" BD at 8-10 ft throw softer light than a much smaller 7" reflector. One is is larger AND also a bounced source. Maybe not nearly as efficient but still.

emily uses a 28" setti though - it has a bit more working room than a 22" but if you go to the mola blog they have a lot of their photographers featured that use it for its unintended use

Jan 04 13 11:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
robert christopher
Posts: 2,680
Snohomish, Washington, US


i have used large umbrellas for the background lighting, its nice to be able to feather towards the model some to get a little rim light if you want it, the second image the light on her hair, camera left is probably from the background light.

i agree a beauty dish for the first with a reflector at chest height.
Jan 04 13 11:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sung Han
Posts: 12
New York, New York, US


thank you everyone for your replies. seriously, i mean it. I really shouldn't have mentioned anything about clients because I wanted a small reassurance/variance from how I was going to set up.

And yes, for the bd, what I meant was near the model, not 12 ft. I have used bd outdoor at 12ft like emily soto for rim lights. If you see my website for the odyssey shoot I've used beauty dishes for some shots. That's where I was getting the length/angle and I do think there are MANY ways you can use it, although for this shoot I meant 6ft more or less.

I'll put up results after the final shoot.
Jan 04 13 04:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
kevinLi
Posts: 214
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


Don't get so caught up in specifics, don't need distance planed exact since you don't know how the environment will be. Have a general idea and adjust accordingly.

From what I see,

1)Medium Octa/beauty dish slight camera right, fill shadow to taste depending on how small the room is and how much light you get bouncing around. Obviously 2+ background light with umbrella or softbox for even background.

2) Medium to large Octa/BD/softbox doesn't matter, very close to camera axis slightly higher than model. There isn't any background light as you can see the top part of the background is darker than the bottom so it was lit by the main light. Model isn't too far from background, shuffle back and forth to get the shadow you want. Most likely a reflector on bottom to bounce some light to the lower part of the frame.

These are pretty simple lighting, follow the shadow.
Jan 04 13 05:54 pm  Link  Quote 
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