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Photographer
Through My Eyes 2011
Posts: 144
Grand Prairie, Texas, US


Does this mean that if I book a model for TF and the day before or hours before our shoot, she gets offered a paid job that it takes priority over ours and that I was warned ahead of time so I just should deal with it? Or if model is offered a TF shoot she will wait (reasonable time frame) to see if a paid job pops up before accepting and committing to the TF? Or are there other options?
Jan 04 13 11:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotographia Fantastique
Posts: 17,323
Lebanon, New Hampshire, US


Could mean any number of things. Best to just ask.
Jan 04 13 11:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 17,849
Albany, New York, US


I've seen it mean ANY of those things. It'd probably be best to clarify w/ the model.


From personal experience, it might be wise to some sort of agreement where after a certain timeframe (like 48 or 24 hours to go from shoot time) that its expected you'll get locked into that slot...or at least giving you a courtesy call.

I've had models cancel on short notice because they "all of a sudden" got a higher paying gig. Unbeknownst to them, they lost any sort of money they would have earned from me in the future.
Jan 04 13 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,439
Paris, Île-de-France, France


Yep paid jobs always bump TF, in any direction. Can be model gets a job, photographer, mu/h stylist. Always have plan B.

At least with agency girls the agency supplies you with a second option.
Jan 04 13 11:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Edward
Posts: 2,462
Dallas, Texas, US


Through My Eyes 2011 wrote:
Does this mean that if I book a model for TF and the day before or hours before our shoot, she gets offered a paid job that it takes priority over ours and that I was warned ahead of time so I just should deal with it? Or if model is offered a TF shoot she will wait (reasonable time frame) to see if a paid job pops up before accepting and committing to the TF? Or are there other options?

Yes, the other option is she just stands you up, and if you ever run into her later, she blows it off, with no apology, because, 'the other job was paid."

Never mind how far in advance it was planned, or how many other people were involved, or if it was for a tearsheet, or with another model who was really looking forward to the shoot.

If you do get advance warning that she's not going to show, consider yourself blessed.

Jan 04 13 11:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leon Bailey
Posts: 523
Orlando, Florida, US


Yeah, always clarify. Same with me. I tell models all the time if I shoot, that if I get booked for a video, I will have to postpone the shoot. Money >>>>
Jan 04 13 01:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


Neil Snape wrote:
Yep paid jobs always bump TF, in any direction. Can be model gets a job, photographer, mu/h stylist. Always have plan B.

At least with agency girls the agency supplies you with a second option.

If it's an agency, I can understand, but I basically think it's crap that, once a commitment is made, someone's still looking for better offers.

Say I book a shoot for a Saturday, agreeing to pay the model $200 for some amount of time.  BOTH of these are unprofessional, in my opinion.

** She cancels, because someone is willing to pay her $300.

** I cancel, because someone's willing to do the shoot for $100.

Making it trade changes nothing.  Now, if I have a trade shoot, and someone wants to hire me for $3000 for the day, I'm going to take it.  And, I'll give the model something for her losing out on the opportunity.

People who have full time jobs in other fields and lack total control of their schedule is a different matter.  Sometimes that can't be helped.

Jan 04 13 01:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Devereaux
Posts: 596
Portland, Oregon, US


Money always talks. I did not make the world, I am just trying to make a living in it.
Jan 04 13 01:36 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


I think it can mean both those things. probably the first one, if you work with agencygirls. At least that is how it is with me. Unless it's one mega awesome TF shoot that i value a lot more than the job my agency is offering, I'll take the paid work. Rarely happens on a day's notice though, and I do think it's fair to ask for a 24hr or 48 hr slot in advance where they can't take other bookings.
Jan 04 13 01:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


I usually take it to mean she has no paid offers but wants you to think she is more in-demand than is the reality so that you think you're lucky to be scheduling a TF* shoot with her.

And if she decides to visit her b/f in prison on the day of your shoot she may cancel with you. And when you question why she flaked, she'll respond with the 'ol Brady Bunch line "Something suddenly came up."
Jan 04 13 01:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
The Trousseau
Posts: 469
Alameda, California, US


To me, it means, "move on, there is nothing to see here." 

A commitment is a commitment. I'd rather work with someone who values that.
Jan 04 13 01:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
3934
Posts: 569
Phoenix, Arizona, US


The Trousseau wrote:
To me, it means, "move on, there is nothing to see here." 

A commitment is a commitment. I'd rather work with someone who values that.

+1

Once I put you on my calender, the time slot is yours. Everyone else can find another day if they suddenly need me so bad.

That said, if someone wants to change a date or time and it's just the two of us shooting, I can live with that. There's nothing wrong with asking.

Jan 04 13 02:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,734
Santa Ana, California, US


Neil Snape wrote:
Yep paid jobs always bump TF, in any direction. Can be model gets a job, photographer, mu/h stylist. Always have plan B.

At least with agency girls the agency supplies you with a second option.

And that's really the differentiator. Over the years I've gotten calls virtually last minute from the booker (for tests), that my girl was suddenly unavailable due to a paid gig. However, without fail I received a virtually equal girl to fill the same slot, so the impact on me was negligible.

On MM and freelance models, the same can't be said - it's a different world.

Jan 04 13 02:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
salvatori.
Posts: 3,697
State College, Pennsylvania, US


Through My Eyes 2011 wrote:
Does this mean that if I book a model for TF and the day before or hours before our shoot, she gets offered a paid job that it takes priority over ours and that I was warned ahead of time so I just should deal with it? Or if model is offered a TF shoot she will wait (reasonable time frame) to see if a paid job pops up before accepting and committing to the TF? Or are there other options?

If I booked a model for a TF session and she then informed me that she might cancel if she got a paid gig, it would be quite simple.

I would 'unbook' her.

If she mentioned that this was her policy when we were trying to schedule something, I never would book her in the first place.

Jan 04 13 02:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MoRina
Posts: 5,600
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


My impression:  it is generally on a model's profile when she wants you to think she is highly in demand for paid offers.  That way when she takes weeks to respond to your emails, she can just tell you that she has been very busy with paid work. Or, that she hopes it will inspire you to offer money instead of TF so that your email will be answered.

I think it is a ridiculous statement.
Jan 04 13 03:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
sdgillis
Posts: 2,422
Portland, Oregon, US


Through My Eyes 2011 wrote:
Does this mean that if I book a llama for TF and the day before or hours before our shoot, she gets offered a paid job that it takes priority over ours and that I was warned ahead of time so I just should deal with it? Or if llama is offered a TF shoot she will wait (reasonable time frame) to see if a paid job pops up before accepting and committing to the TF? Or are there other options?

It means they are not really that interested in working with you, but if your the highest bidder they will put up with the booking to make money.

It doesn't mean they will overbook on you to do another job, but it does happen.

Jan 04 13 03:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 3,887
Los Angeles, California, US


Paid jobs take priority in my scheduling (aka they tend to get first dibs on dates), but if I have agreed to shoot TFP and have a date scheduled, then I stick by it. I will not cancel a TFP shoot in favor of a paid shoot.

IMO, a TFP is as valuable to me as a paid shoot as the images I make from TFP get me connections and paid gigs, so if I say I will do something like TFP, I will not blow it off.

I don't think it's a very wise statement to make on a profile or something. Too many interpretations.


Edit: If it's a huge paid offer, however, I may talk to the photographer and see if I can't work out a rescheduling ... ;P Honestly depends on the situation, but I would NEVER flake/last min cancel.
Jan 04 13 03:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,608
Phoenix, Arizona, US


If I were a landscaper and offered to do a job for a friend for free, you better damn well believe that if a paid job comes along for the same day, my friend will have to wait.
Jan 04 13 03:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Right Poes
Posts: 835
Colorado Springs, Colorado, US


I take the job or I don't have one. Personal projects do not exist without the means to support them.
Jan 04 13 04:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,746
London, England, United Kingdom


Best to talk to the model in question because there is no "norm"

If I have a paid job , I would see if it's possible to reschedule, but once I confirm a booking, I stick to it regardless. I appreciate people need to earn to live so I'm flexible on rescheduling depending on how much notice is given.

I would never ring up last minute to cancel or reschedule, it's an easy way to get a bad reputation.
Jan 04 13 04:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
angel emily
Posts: 1,020
Boston, Massachusetts, US


IDiivil wrote:
Paid jobs take priority in my scheduling (aka they tend to get first dibs on dates), but if I have agreed to shoot TFP and have a date scheduled, then I stick by it. I will not cancel a TFP shoot in favor of a paid shoot.

IMO, a TFP is as valuable to me as a paid shoot as the images I make from TFP get me connections and paid gigs, so if I say I will do something like TFP, I will not blow it off.

I don't think it's a very wise statement to make on a profile or something. Too many interpretations.


Edit: If it's a huge paid offer, however, I may talk to the photographer and see if I can't work out a rescheduling ... ;P Honestly depends on the situation, but I would NEVER flake/last min cancel.

This!!!

Jan 04 13 04:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,206
Atlanta, Georgia, US


John Allan wrote:

And that's really the differentiator. Over the years I've gotten calls virtually last minute from the booker (for tests), that my girl was suddenly unavailable due to a paid gig. However, without fail I received a virtually equal girl to fill the same slot, so the impact on me was negligible.

On MM and freelance models, the same can't be said - it's a different world.

If you got a great booker they will send you an even better model sometimes smile but this is just one of many reasons to work with agencies.

Jan 04 13 04:28 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


It means she prefers paid jobs. Don't flip out with hypotheticals.
Jan 04 13 04:53 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,917
New York, New York, US


It really is quite common.  I think that you'll find that most models will honor their commitments if at all possible.  At least that's been my experience.  But if a model has a chance to earn something with someone else and no chance to earn any money with me, I'd wish her Godspeed.

There's nothing else I can do anyway.  At least this way I don't work myself into a dither.  And if I pick up a paying gig I have no compunction about rebooking.  It works both ways.

On the other hand if she just fails to show up without calling to cancel, knowing that my policy is paid comes first, then I consider that inexcusable and write her off totally.

All IMHO, as always.
Jan 04 13 06:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
deletedxxx
Posts: 149
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


I don't mind if anyone cancels or postpones anything with me for whatever reason, shit happens, and good opportunities happen too.

But my niceness only applies if they give me decent notice.
Jan 04 13 06:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
T A X I
Posts: 199
San Diego, California, US


Leon Bailey wrote:
Yeah, always clarify. Same with me. I tell models all the time if I shoot, that if I get booked for a video, I will have to postpone the shoot. Money >>>>

+1
shoot both as well and if someone is going to drop cash in my hand then it's "sorry love, but..."

Jan 04 13 06:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,489
Los Angeles, California, US


If my agency books me for something on a day I'm supposed to have a trade shoot, I have to cancel (or try to reschedule) the trade shoot.

Unfortunately, I shoot for portfolio uses (paid and trade) multiple times per week, and I can't book out ALL of those days.

When you book out a day, it means they won't send you on any jobs that have a casting, callback, OR work that day.

If I booked out for every TF shoot, I wouldn't be able to make enough to survive. My agency would also grow tired of that very quickly.

The good news is, castings usually have timeframes, so I can work shoots around them/ work them around shoots, and when I book something I tend to know I'm on hold/ booked with enough notice to give the photographer.

I've never really had a problem, but usually just addressing the little snags and dealing with the situation in a mature way solves things.
Jan 04 13 06:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
In Balance Photography
Posts: 3,370
Boston, Massachusetts, US


A couple of times a model has canceled a trade shoot because legitimate paid work came up.

Call me weird but it puts a smile on my face - I like the idea of the people I work with having some financial success.
Jan 04 13 07:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


IDiivil wrote:
Paid jobs take priority in my scheduling (aka they tend to get first dibs on dates), but if I have agreed to shoot TFP and have a date scheduled, then I stick by it. I will not cancel a TFP shoot in favor of a paid shoot.

IMO, a TFP is as valuable to me as a paid shoot as the images I make from TFP get me connections and paid gigs, so if I say I will do something like TFP, I will not blow it off.

I don't think it's a very wise statement to make on a profile or something. Too many interpretations.


Edit: If it's a huge paid offer, however, I may talk to the photographer and see if I can't work out a rescheduling ... ;P Honestly depends on the situation, but I would NEVER flake/last min cancel.

But, you are professional and pure class.  Nothing less than this would be expected.

Jan 04 13 08:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Cynelle
Posts: 3
Irwin, Pennsylvania, US


If a commitment is made to something, it should be fulfilled unless there is legitimate reasoning to cancel. Money is great, but not everything. If I make a definite commitment to a photographer who is doing TF, I'm not going to cancel last minute...that's just unprofessional, regardless of the money. And plus, maybe that TF photographer will eventually hit it big and remember me. Haha tongue
Jan 04 13 09:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Honey Stinger
Posts: 6,301
Madison, Wisconsin, US


Cynelle wrote:
If a commitment is made to something, it should be fulfilled unless there is legitimate reasoning to cancel. Money is great, but not everything. If I make a definite commitment to a photographer who is doing TF, I'm not going to cancel last minute...that's just unprofessional, regardless of the money. And plus, maybe that TF photographer will eventually hit it big and remember me. Haha tongue

I nominate for the best first post ever.

Jan 04 13 09:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


Cynelle wrote:
If a commitment is made to something, it should be fulfilled unless there is legitimate reasoning to cancel. Money is great, but not everything. If I make a definite commitment to a photographer who is doing TF, I'm not going to cancel last minute...that's just unprofessional, regardless of the money. And plus, maybe that TF photographer will eventually hit it big and remember me. Haha tongue
Cuica Cafezinho wrote:
I nominate for the best first post ever.

Nah.  But it's certainly a promising start.

Jan 04 13 09:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Cynelle
Posts: 3
Irwin, Pennsylvania, US


Haha, well thanks. smile I just saw this and had to give my input. Some of the comments pretty much were like "yeah, I scheduled a TF shoot with this person, but if this other person offers me something better 5 minutes before the shoot, the first person is out of luck." I may be pretty darn new to this, but that doesn't seem professional at all to me. :\
Jan 04 13 10:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ruben Sanchez
Posts: 3,416
San Antonio, Texas, US


Through My Eyes 2011 wrote:
Does this mean that if I book a model for TF and the day before or hours before our shoot, she gets offered a paid job that it takes priority over ours and that I was warned ahead of time so I just should deal with it? Or if model is offered a TF shoot she will wait (reasonable time frame) to see if a paid job pops up before accepting and committing to the TF? Or are there other options?

Yes, it does.  It also means, that if you get offered a paid job that it takes priority over your tf shoot.  A tf can always be rescheduled for another day.  A paid job offer at the last minute is a take it or loose it opportunity.

Jan 04 13 10:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


Cynelle wrote:
Haha, well thanks. smile I just saw this and had to give my input. Some of the comments pretty much were like "yeah, I scheduled a TF shoot with this person, but if this other person offers me something better 5 minutes before the shoot, the first person is out of luck." I may be pretty darn new to this, but that doesn't seem professional at all to me. :\

I just keep liking you more and more.

Jan 05 13 12:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


Ruben Sanchez wrote:
Yes, it does.  It also means, that if you get offered a paid job that it takes priority over your tf shoot.  A tf can always be rescheduled for another day.  A paid job offer at the last minute is a take it or loose it opportunity.

Is it also the case that if I get offered a TF shoot, it should be fine to cancel the shoot where I was going to pay?

I once drove 700 miles one way for a TF shoot.  I would have been VERY unhappy if she canceled at the last minute, even if it was for a paid shoot.  I'm sure the llamas who often travel two hours one way to do trade shoots with me would also be unhappy of I blew it off at the last minute.

Jan 05 13 12:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 16,638
El Segundo, California, US


Cynelle wrote:
If a commitment is made to something, it should be fulfilled unless there is legitimate reasoning to cancel. Money is great, but not everything. If I make a definite commitment to a photographer who is doing TF, I'm not going to cancel last minute...that's just unprofessional, regardless of the money. And plus, maybe that TF photographer will eventually hit it big and remember me. Haha tongue

I agree.

Sadly, even paid sessions aren't immune from this when unprofessional behavior is involved. A few months ago, when all my regular makeup artists were unavailable for a multiple-model session, I hired another MUA (for $$, not images). The night before our next-morning shoot, I got the following email.

I am so sorry but my friend just asked me to do a commercial with her tomorrow and the rate is a lot higher than the shoot tomorrow so I have to take it! I'm sorry I feel really bad but have to take the higher rate.

I got her email around midnight, when I got home. (Ever try to find a makeup artist Friday after midnight, for a Saturday morning shoot? When everyone you've worked with before was unavailable?)

Two models, a studio, another photographer, and myself were impacted because one, supposedly professional, makeup artist was unwilling to respect a commitment. Granted, my shoot wasn't at full commercial rates, but she had committed to it, and she would have gotten paid.  I won't be contacting her again; after all, what expectation that this wouldn't happen for another paid shoot if something better came along?

Choosing what to accept is one thing, but after committing to it, unilaterally cancelling on very short notice is simply unprofessional behavior.

Jan 05 13 01:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,439
Paris, Île-de-France, France


Kevin, I had a full commercial shoot once for Getty, the pay for the MU was like 600$ per day or so in 2000. I had worked with her before and thought she would be good enough. She did one day of a multi-day shoot and said , sorry I have a higher paid job. Yet here is a friend that can do it. The friend was incompetent and ruined the shoot.

The first mu person will never work with me again, and I slagged her at every opportunity.

It's one thing for a free or TF, to be bounced for a paid job but never should an agreed paid job be bounced for a better one.
Jan 05 13 02:00 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Cynelle wrote:
Haha, well thanks. smile I just saw this and had to give my input. Some of the comments pretty much were like "yeah, I scheduled a TF shoot with this person, but if this other person offers me something better 5 minutes before the shoot, the first person is out of luck." I may be pretty darn new to this, but that doesn't seem professional at all to me. :\

I doubt there are models who are actually like that... and the few that are are certainly unprofessional.

It have only been in that situation twice: first time I had planned a Tf shoot with a photographer I had worked with before, and about a week before our shoot would take place my agency calls if I'm available that weekend for a 2 day catalogue shoot (pay in total around 1200 euro...). I told the photographer, we rescheduled the shoot. Second time I had a tf shoot planned with a photogapher from paris who would be travelling to belgium especially for this shoot, my agency called about 2 weeks ahead if I was available for a client that day, and I told them that I wasn't available, so I missed out on paid work because I went through with the TF shoot, and both times I stand by my decision.

Now if you are telling me that you wouldn't consider rescheduling a TF shoot with a local photographer, giving notice a week ahead, to do a modelling job that earns you a thousand dollars, then I find that surprising.

what I don't think is okay:
*cancelling a TF for a better TF
*cancelling a paid job for a job that pays more (also not done within agencies anyway)
*cancelling on very short notice

Jan 05 13 02:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Neil Snape wrote:
Kevin, I had a full commercial shoot once for Getty, the pay for the MU was like 600$ per day or so in 2000. I had worked with her before and thought she would be good enough. She did one day of a multi-day shoot and said , sorry I have a higher paid job. Yet here is a friend that can do it. The friend was incompetent and ruined the shoot.

The first mu person will never work with me again, and I slagged her at every opportunity.

It's one thing for a free or TF, to be bounced for a paid job but never should an agreed paid job be bounced for a better one.

Agreed - I've had to postpone TF shooting in favour of pay-jobs before - sorry but a last-minute 3.000,- EUR Wedding takes precedence over a TF fun shoot - I wish it didn't, but this is my livlihood and I have a family to support.

That said, I've also had to turn down better-paid jobs as I was already contracted to do something else - in those instances I turn to my local network and sub it out to another photographer while taking a finders' fee.

Jan 05 13 02:07 am  Link  Quote 
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