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Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,735
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Most of my photography is trade with local fashion models and they are a pretty conservative bunch ( on the whole )

So on occassion i like to shoot nudes with one of those top MM models who visit my city

I will acknowledge that I am not a very good photographer in this genre- so I dont mind paying a bit of coin for the privililege of learning to improve ( however some of the models i have shot  have offered me trade - which i have accepted )

I have so far worked with a handful of such travelling models ( 6 or 7 )  , each one pleasant , skilled and professional - and the shoots have gone well

However over the past year or so I have been contacted by /or have contacted 3 travelling  models visiting my area , they have offered their "rates " for the type of shoot I am seeking , i have agreed to the rates - and instead in  response I have recieved messages stating that they really are trying to get away from doing nude work but they will do a fashion shoot for the same rate

I am starting to wonder if this is a common practice or if it is just my experience
Jan 06 13 12:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R A V E N D R I V E
Posts: 15,867
New York, New York, US


Garry k wrote:
Most of my photography is trade with local fashion models and they are a pretty conservative bunch ( on the whole )

So on occassion i like to shoot nudes with one of those top MM models who visit my city

I will acknowledge that I am not a very good photographer in this genre- so I dont mind paying a bit of coin for the privililege of learning to improve ( however some of the models i have shot  have offered me trade - which i have accepted )

I have so far worked with a handful of such travelling models ( 6 or 7 )  , each one pleasant , skilled and professional - and the shoots have gone well

However over the past year or so I have been contacted by /or have contacted 3 travelling  models visiting my area , they have offered their "rates " for the type of shoot I am seeking , i have agreed to the rates - and instead in  response I have recieved messages stating that they really are trying to get away from doing nude work but they will do a fashion shoot for the same rate

I am starting to wonder if this is a common practice or if it is just my experience

its not a bait and switch, its a pipe dream smile

a lot of models get pigeonholed into nude work

Jan 06 13 12:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael McGowan
Posts: 3,543
Tucson, Arizona, US


I've never had anything remotely like that happen. Traveling models I've booked have done exactly what they advertised, some going well beyond their "normal," including bondage or fetish work.

So, my experience is that these models have under-sold what they're willing to do if the situation is right. A few "fashion" or "commercial" ladies have done anonymous figure studies or implied nudes, which they don't advertise.

A few ask for other shots in addition to the paid set, but that's usually no problem. It's just part of negotiations.

Maybe you just need to be more specific, letting them know from the get-go that you're paying for the reasons you noted.
Jan 06 13 12:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,735
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Michael McGowan wrote:
I've never had anything remotely like that happen. Traveling models I've booked have done exactly what they advertised, some going well beyond their "normal," including bondage or fetish work.

So, my experience is that these models have under-sold what they're willing to do if the situation is right. A few "fashion" or "commercial" ladies have done anonymous figure studies or implied nudes, which they don't advertise.

A few ask for other shots in addition to the paid set, but that's usually no problem. It's just part of negotiations.

Maybe you just need to be more specific, letting them know from the get-go that you're paying for the reasons you noted.

Oh I am pretty specific with models for all the shoots i do ...I have long since learned that its best to be on the same page before the shoot regarding the type of shoot it will be

And I am not proposing to them anything more than what is in my port or theirs

but I am not hearing back from them anything to do with the concept being outside of their comfort zone

they just start talking about doing a fashion shoot

which of course i would be fine with too( cus i do enough of them ) -but  on  trade basis

Jan 06 13 12:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,065
Alexandria, Virginia, US


I hear from a lot of models who are trying to diversify or switch genres and like what I have in my port -

here is, I think, a good way to handle this -

offer to trade -   1/2 of the shoot time to shoot the content they want, in exchange for 1/2 of the shoot time shooting the content that you want

works well for me smile
Jan 06 13 07:36 am  Link  Quote 
Model
angel emily
Posts: 1,020
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Garry k wrote:
However over the past year or so I have been contacted by /or have contacted 3 travelling  models visiting my area , they have offered their "rates " for the type of shoot I am seeking , i have agreed to the rates - and instead in  response I have recieved messages stating that they really are trying to get away from doing nude work but they will do a fashion shoot for the same rate

I am starting to wonder if this is a common practice or if it is just my experience

Well - I'm not sure why they are agreeing to shoot terms/rates and then saying "Sorry, no nudes!" -- or, are you saying they go along with it, they're just mentioning to you that it's not their focus?

I agree with the comment that many models get pigeon-holded.  Once they start doing nude work, many models find it difficult to find someone who wants to shoot them in any other style; it can become frustrating, being seen as a "nude model" instead of just "model" -- but it's ultimately in the model's hands how she advertises herself and the assignments she agrees to do.

Advertising that you do nude work when you don't really want to do it requires some consideration if its fair to continue advertising for that genre, or modeling in that genre at all.  For some, doing nude work can become a "pays the bills" sort of thing, even if the model doesn't personally like shooting that kind of work.    When it hit that point for me, I decided it was time to re-evaluate.

Some models find it effective having two profiles - one for nude work, one for other non-nude work -- others do nude work selectively and don't advertise it to prevent this from happening.

Jan 06 13 07:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JQuest
Posts: 1,256
Syracuse, New York, US


I've never run into that, and I shoot traveling models almost exclusively now-a-days as they actually show up.
Jan 06 13 07:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,977
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Pretty simple.  They have seen a trend toward more hobbyists with less experience than they have who allow themselves to be manipulated.  As the paying customer, you are in control.  Simply say, "I'm sorry, that's not what we agreed on.  We can shoot the content we did agree on for the rate you quoted, or I'll find another llama."

If you then stop negotiating, they will either honor their agreement or not.  Either way, you won't set a precedent you don't need to.

And FWIW, I lived and shot in Vancouver for a year.  There are plenty of options there for nude work, especially if you're willing to pay.  They may not be traveling "stars", but they are certainly there.
Jan 06 13 08:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Top Gun Digital
Posts: 1,192
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


JQuest wrote:
I've never run into that, and I shoot traveling models almost exclusively now-a-days as they actually show up.

Same here.  I have never had a model tell me she wanted to do something other than what was agreed upon.  I also seem to shoot mostly with models from out of town as they almost always show up in contrast to local models that frequently flake.

Jan 06 13 08:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 20,834
Portland, Oregon, US


I can sympathize with the models -- many feel frustrated that the only paid work they can get is for posing nude.  Indeed, once most pose nude, photographers don't want them to pose any other way.  That must be disappointing for many models.

Still -- it's not a big deal for me.  There's nothing wrong with a photographer being willing to pay for nudes but not for clothed.  If you don't want to pay for a clothed shoot, politely decline as quickly as possible, then move on in your search for a nude model.
Jan 06 13 08:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,977
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
I can sympathize with the models -- many feel frustrated that the only paid work they can get is for posing nude.  Indeed, once most pose nude, photographers don't want them to pose any other way.  That must be disappointing for many models.

Still -- it's not a big deal for me.  There's nothing wrong with a photographer being willing to pay for nudes but not for clothed.  If you don't want to pay for a clothed shoot, politely decline as quickly as possible, then move on in your search for a nude model.

Sorry, but I have no real sympathy here.  If a model has runway or fashion stats and puts themselves in the right market and works their butt off, they should be paid for the work they want.

If a person is well outside of those stats and has people willing to pay them 10 to 20x more per hour than almost anyone with their level of education, training and experience, they should either take the money and be grateful, or go get another job.

Jan 06 13 08:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Grace Photographic
Posts: 7,125
Abingdon, Virginia, US


Garry k wrote:

Oh I am pretty specific with models for all the shoots i do ...I have long since learned that its best to be on the same page before the shoot regarding the type of shoot it will be

And I am not proposing to them anything more than what is in my port or theirs

but I am not hearing back from them anything to do with the concept being outside of their comfort zone

they just start talking about doing a fashion shoot

which of course i would be fine with too( cus i do enough of them ) -but  on  trade basis

Then tell them that.
You will gladly pay them their rate for the nude work you desire, and will do trade of fashion work that they want.
Either that or quote them your fashion rate and ask if they would be willing to trade for a 1/2 fashion 1/2 nude shoot.

Jan 06 13 08:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
D S P
Posts: 510
Portland, Oregon, US


No, it's not a common practice. The traveling models that I've worked with have been awesome.
Jan 06 13 09:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 17,849
Albany, New York, US


Garry k wrote:
However over the past year or so I have been contacted by /or have contacted 3 travelling  models visiting my area , they have offered their "rates " for the type of shoot I am seeking , i have agreed to the rates - and instead in  response I have recieved messages stating that they really are trying to get away from doing nude work but they will do a fashion shoot for the same rate

Sounds like a great way to shoot them as a TF* assignment. wink

"If you're willing to shoot what I need for my port, I'm more than willing to help you out shooting what you need."

Jan 06 13 09:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,735
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Lifestyle_Images wrote:

Sorry, but I have no real sympathy here.  If a model has runway or fashion stats and puts themselves in the right market and works their butt off, they should be paid for the work they want.

actually where i live there is a glut of agency fashion models with the "right stats " and not enough local work ...thus its fairly easy for capable photographers to shoot on a trade basis

Jan 06 13 09:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
James Ogilvie
Posts: 6,640
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


That's a new one to me. 

Most of the travelling models that contact me are fully ready and capable of doing the kind of work in their portfolios, including nudes.
Jan 06 13 09:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,977
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Garry k wrote:

actually where i live there is a glut of agency fashion models with the "right stats " and not enough local work ...thus its fairly easy for capable photographers to shoot on a trade basis

My point was that ALL models have a right to get paid, but that those who don't have agency or fashion stats have to work in genres where they represent a value.

If a short model shows up in Vancouver where agency models are doing fashion TF, and expect nude rates for fashion, they are either delusional or trying to run a game on a gullible hobbyist.

Jan 06 13 09:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,735
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Lifestyle_Images wrote:

My point was that ALL models have a right to get paid, but that those who don't have agency or fashion stats have to work in genres where they represent a value.

Isn't that like saying ALL photographers have the right to be paid ?

Jan 06 13 09:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,977
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Garry k wrote:

Isn't that like saying ALL photographers have the right to be paid ?

Yep.  As in the rest of life, all according to what they bring to the table.  Some make big dollars, some make trade, but yes, we and they should all get "paid" something.

Jan 06 13 09:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,735
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Lifestyle_Images wrote:

Yep.  As in the rest of life, all according to what they bring to the table.  Some make big dollars, some make trade, but yes, we and they should all get "paid" something.

so hypothetically speaking ...

the photographers pays the model $100 an hr , and the model pays the photographer $100 an hour and they both leave the shoot feeling satisfied cus they both got "paid " ?

Jan 06 13 09:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,977
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Garry k wrote:
so hypothetically speaking ...

the photographers pays the model $100 an hr , and the model pays the photographer $100 an hour and they both leave the shoot feeling satisfied cus they both got "paid " ?

No, if, based on the competition in a given area, a model and a photographer both routinely charge and get paid $100/hr. then if their "value" in that market is $100/hr.  If they work with each other, they still bring that value to the table, and therefore represent an equitable trade.

If I can only deliver photos worth $50/hr and the model is a $100/hr person, then I need to give her twice as much time as she does to be "usual and customary."

In the above, I would see me paying $50/hr to be a fair arrangement.

ETA:  Would you feel better if I used the word "compensated" rather than "paid?"

Jan 06 13 09:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


If you're paying a nude model then you have a right to expect nude modelling!






Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com
Jan 06 13 09:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Westdahl Studio
Posts: 331
Seattle, Washington, US


JQuest wrote:
I've never run into that, and I shoot traveling models almost exclusively now-a-days as they actually show up.

+1

Jan 06 13 09:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LWP
Posts: 2
New York, New York, US


Like others  posted I have worked with many traveling models and found them reliable and straight forward with regard to limits. Occasionally I have had a traveling model - even some of the stars - show up with a little more than a few extra pounds but I've never had one backtrack on  content limits at the shoot.

My experience, if you're willing to pay the premium these girls want to charge then they're a much better bet than Mary from the block who has a port full of mirror shots.
Jan 06 13 09:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Alan H Bruce
Posts: 421
San Diego, California, US


Bait and switch, or reopening negotiations are not exclusive domain of traveling models (or of this 'business'; I run into people in all parts of life for whom the negotiating never ends... bastards.).  I'll be spending the day at home today over such tactics and my intolerance (learned the hard way) of such strategies.

I have to say, though, I find this practice among models has more to do with age or time as a model than traveling v. local.  Younger and/or less experienced models practice this with greater statistical frequency, in my uncalculated experience; traveling models usually have the socialization of the negotiations down and do this with less frequency, again, in my experience.
Jan 06 13 10:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Supermodel Photographer
Posts: 3,309
Oyster Bay, New York, US


Garry k wrote:
Travelling Models "Bait and Switch "

...

master baiting

Jan 06 13 10:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24,315
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


my experience with traveling nude models goes approximately like this:

model: "i really love your work with so and so, i would really like to work with you while i'm in town."
me: (thinking to myself, this is not the type of model i would typically offer trade work to, but they do have a name and recognition in the art community) ok sure, i'd be down for shooting.
model: " ok, i have these days available"
me: "cool"
model: "oh yeah, i'm not doing trade shoots, so here are my rates" or "do you have any budget to pay me, becasae i cant come to your town unless you pay me"

all the while i know they are trading with other locals, because those guys have already told me about it..

with exception of one model out of seven, this is how it went down.
one had the courtesy to be upfront about looking for paid work.

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png
Jan 06 13 10:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,780
Olivet, Michigan, US


Michael McGowan wrote:
I've never had anything remotely like that happen. Traveling models I've booked have done exactly what they advertised, some going well beyond their "normal," including bondage or fetish work.

So, my experience is that these models have under-sold what they're willing to do if the situation is right. A few "fashion" or "commercial" ladies have done anonymous figure studies or implied nudes, which they don't advertise.

A few ask for other shots in addition to the paid set, but that's usually no problem. It's just part of negotiations.

Maybe you just need to be more specific, letting them know from the get-go that you're paying for the reasons you noted.

I've shot with plenty of traveling models.  Can't say that I've ever had the problem the OP mentions either.

Jan 06 13 10:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AgX
Posts: 1,188
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Garry k wrote:
I am starting to wonder if this is a common practice or if it is just my experience

Not my experience at all. The traveling models with whom I've worked, both cash and trade, have done exactly what we agreed to beforehand, and done so splendidly with results that pleased us both.

Jan 06 13 10:10 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Lynn Elizabeth
Posts: 1,336
Coral Springs, Florida, US


If the model gives you rates that are for nude work then nude work is shot. I don't understand why anyone would give a rate for a genre of work then come back and say oh but I'm not going to shoot what you want. I would have just said nevermind and found someone else.
Jan 06 13 10:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,439
Paris, Île-de-France, France


I get models traveling asking to do fashion pictures because they see that I have done that and they want to get out of the nudes. When I look at what they do it's evident that nudes are what they should do.

I don't get any models asking me to pay though for non nudes, and for nudes it is almost always just a travel plan seeing if they can get good photographers to pay.

When I respond, they have a choice then for TF or keep looking, exactly what I suggest. Good nude models should try to find as much paid work as possible, and only do TF if there is time permitting.
Jan 06 13 10:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
James Ogilvie
Posts: 6,640
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
my experience with traveling nude models goes approximately like this:

model: "i really love your work with so and so, i would really like to work with you while i'm in town."
me: (thinking to myself, this is not the type of model i would typically offer trade work to, but they do have a name and recognition in the art community) ok sure, i'd be down for shooting.
model: " ok, i have these days available"
me: "cool"
model: "oh yeah, i'm not doing trade shoots, so here are my rates" or "do you have any budget to pay me, becasae i cant come to your town unless you pay me"

all the while i know they are trading with other locals, because those guys have already told me about it..

with exception of one model out of seven, this is how it went down.
one had the courtesy to be upfront about looking for paid work.

This rings true as well.

The whole "I need to be paid and everyone pays me, no exceptions", but I know differently.

Nice to know I'm not alone in this Doug. I have always admired your work, so it's nice to know it's not just a me thing.  smile

Jan 06 13 10:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8,837
Delphos, Ohio, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
I can sympathize with the models -- many feel frustrated that the only paid work they can get is for posing nude.  Indeed, once most pose nude, photographers don't want them to pose any other way.  That must be disappointing for many models.

With what, exactly, are you sympathizing? Unless a model is doing something extraordinary, nude/fetish/porn is the only consistent path to revenue for a traveling model. Anyone getting into that lifestyle without realizing that from the get-go is hopelessly optimistic.

Buyer's remorse sucks.

Jan 06 13 10:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Woodson Photography
Posts: 2,644
Savannah, Georgia, US


The only real bait and switch I've run into was the Charleston, SC Model who agree to do a TF shoot with me then sent me a note the day before the shoot telling me I would have to pay her.

I thanked her and cancelled the shoot.
Jan 06 13 10:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dark Shadows
Posts: 2,269
Miami, Florida, US


I've had them contact me as if we are doing TFP and then bringing up rates, which is awkward.
Jan 06 13 10:40 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 4,859
Detroit, Michigan, US


Most of the traveling nude models I know of seem pretty happy doing nudes. I could see them maybe asking to shoot some fashion as well (though I think most if not all of them would ask to do that for TF), but no instead of the nudes you agreed to pay them for.

I also agree with the comments that nude models do often get pigeon-holed, not just into nudes in general but into specific styles of nudes as well. That has happened to me with art nudes. The only way I managed to get out of it a bit was just to ask friends to shoot me in other styles and then when I started self portraiture I was able to play with beauty and make-up which have always been on my list to try.

However, that is not an excuse to agree to shoot one thing and then try to change it to another once the shoot is booked. I have gotten paid to pose for art nudes because people see me as worth paying for that. Sure, I might like to shoot fashion or alt or whatever, but I cannot expect to paid for that based on my skill or look as an art nude model. They just are not the same (or enough the same, sometimes there is crossover of course).
Jan 06 13 10:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
dave phoenix
Posts: 1,260
Phoenix, Arizona, US


i once worked with a model who wanted to do some shots on polaroid film, and i said i would do them in exchange for a couple hours of nudes. so we shoot the polaroids, then she says she's decided she doesn't want to do the nudes, so i say "okay, have a nice day - there's the door."

she goes, "well, can i have those polaroids?"
no, of course not.

"can you scan them and send me copies?"
no, of course not.

some models fail to understand the idea of a trade agreement, i guess, and feel like they should get everything they want, and don't mind lying.
Jan 06 13 10:58 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
MainePaintah
Posts: 1,676
Saco, Maine, US


I once had a model agree to a "trade" shoot with me. She agreed to give me x amount of hours posing for me, and I would give her a painting of herself in trade.

Shoot was schedules to be in a couple of weeks.

About 4 days before the shoot, she says, "I'm an not going to trade with you for something I have no use for (meaning my painting), but here are my rates, and I want a CD of the whole shoot"!

Models, ya gotta love 'em!
Jan 06 13 11:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Woodson Photography
Posts: 2,644
Savannah, Georgia, US


dave phoenix wrote:
i once worked with a model who wanted to do some shots on polaroid film, and i said i would do them in exchange for a couple hours of nudes. so we shoot the polaroids, then she says she's decided she doesn't want to do the nudes, so i say "okay, have a nice day - there's the door."

she goes, "well, can i have those polaroids?"
no, of course not.

"can you scan them and send me copies?"
no, of course not.

some models fail to understand the idea of a trade agreement, i guess, and feel like they should get everything they want, and don't mind lying.

If she's on MM, she probably has you listed on her profile page as a Photographer to not work with.

Jan 06 13 11:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
dave phoenix
Posts: 1,260
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Ed Woodson Photography wrote:
If she's on MM, she probably has you listed on her profile page as a Photographer to not work with.

That's fine by me, I'm not exactly in a position where I'm struggling to find models who want to work with me.

Jan 06 13 11:09 am  Link  Quote 
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