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Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 36,314
Columbus, Ohio, US


Garry k wrote:
However over the past year or so I have been contacted by /or have contacted 3 travelling  models visiting my area , they have offered their "rates " for the type of shoot I am seeking , i have agreed to the rates - and instead in  response I have recieved messages stating that they really are trying to get away from doing nude work but they will do a fashion shoot for the same rate

I am starting to wonder if this is a common practice or if it is just my experience

No & yes.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head of hearing that story even once from even one travel model, let alone multiples. Nude work is their bread & butter, and there are scant few few few models that can make $$$ traveling on a regular basis without doing such.

Perhaps they just decided they didn't want to shoot with you for whatever reason, and are looking for an out, rather than be up front about it.

Jan 06 13 11:09 am  Link  Quote 
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3,862
Seattle, Washington, US


"Bait & switch" should not be happening, but....

perhaps the models think the fashion work in your port is far superior to the nude work, and decide they only want to work with you if you agree to shoot in the style they feel you're best at.   

Even pro nude models like to look good in their images.  Maybe they figure there's no harm in proposing a clothed shoot with you.

When some models offer you rates for nude work, maybe they assume you're going decline, and when you don't, they feel bad sending you increased rates, or simply stopping communication, so they propose a clothed shoot instead? 

My suggestion to you would be this:
Propose trade for nude images.  Explain that you're new to shooting nudes, and you realize you're not that good yet.  Tell the model you'll go through the images with her, get feedback, and will only post images she likes and is comfortable with. This kind of courtesy is often enough to win a model over.  It's worked on me several times. wink  Not only that, but if you follow through, and only post images the model is happy with, now she trusts you, and she's likely to recommend you to other models (I have done this).  If this doesn't work, offer to pay the model's rates, as well as the same proposal I just described.  You'll only have to do this until you get good enough for models to trust that you won't post horrible images of them. 

Best of luck, Gary!   smile
Jan 06 13 12:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,981
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


MelissaAnn  wrote:
"Bait & switch" should not be happening, but....

perhaps the models think the fashion work in your port is far superior to the nude work, and decide they only want to work with you if you agree to shoot in the style they feel you're best at.   

Even pro nude models like to look good in their images.  Maybe they figure there's no harm in proposing a clothed shoot with you.

When some models offer you rates for nude work, maybe they assume you're going decline, and when you don't, they feel bad sending you increased rates, or simply stopping communication, so they propose a clothed shoot instead? 

My suggestion to you would be this:
Propose trade for nude images.  Explain that you're new to shooting nudes, and you realize you're not that good yet.  Tell the model you'll go through the images with her, get feedback, and will only post images she likes and is comfortable with. This kind of courtesy is often enough to win a model over.  It's worked on me several times. wink  Not only that, but if you follow through, and only post images the model is happy with, now she trusts you, and she's likely to recommend you to other models (I have done this).  If this doesn't work, offer to pay the model's rates, as well as the same proposal I just described.  You'll only have to do this until you get good enough for models to trust that you won't post horrible images of them. 

Best of luck, Gary!   smile

Two small flaws in this Melissa:

1. The models in the OP had already provided nude rates.  One would assume that if they really didn't want to shoot nudes with him, they would have flat out declined the offer.

2. When I answer an ad to provide a consulting service, I am agreeing that my client is in charge, not me.  This includes which images they choose to display, and where.

Trade with the guy and run (ETA: your reasonable share of) the show, or accept his money (ETA: and the fact that you are an employee)  and do the job, then walk away.  You really can't have it both ways.

Jan 06 13 12:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,950
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Small Fruit Pits wrote:

No & yes.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head of hearing that story even once from even one travel model, let alone multiples. Nude work is their bread & butter, and there are scant few few few models that can make $$$ traveling on a regular basis without doing such.

Perhaps they just decided they didn't want to shoot with you for whatever reason, and are looking for an out, rather than be up front about it.

That is quite possible ...however I do not encounter the same thing with the models I shoot fashion and glamour with

Jan 06 13 01:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,950
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


MelissaAnn  wrote:
"Bait
Jan 06 13 01:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,981
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Garry k wrote:

That is quite possible ...however I do not encounter the same thing with the models I shoot fashion and glamour with

It could be that nudes are more of a commodity, especially with people who don't shoot them often.  Models who make their living in this genre are well aware of this and, as your OP shows, some try to exploit that.

I say just walk away and post your castings in the art departments of the local colleges where art models work all the time without all this silly power playing.

Jan 06 13 01:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3,862
Seattle, Washington, US


Lifestyle_Images wrote:
Two small flaws in this Melissa:

1. The models in the OP had already provided nude rates.  One would assume that if they really didn't want to shoot nudes with him, they would have flat out declined the offer.

2. When I answer an ad to provide a consulting service, I am agreeing that my client is in charge, not me.  This includes which images they choose to display, and where.

Trade with the guy and run (ETA: your reasonable share of) the show, or accept his money (ETA: and the fact that you are an employee)  and do the job, then walk away.  You really can't have it both ways.

I'm giving Gary a *MODELS* perspective.  Maybe you shouldn't *assume* what models do, or how they think......since you're not a model.  There are some models who send inflated rates rather than declining, trust me, I know.

Actually, many models can, and have had it both ways, as much as that may upset you.  I'm speaking from personal experience here.   smile

Gary can take this information and do as he will with it.  I was simply offering a suggestion.

Jan 06 13 01:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,981
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


MelissaAnn  wrote:
I'm giving Gary a *MODELS* perspective.  Maybe you shouldn't *assume* what models do, or how they think......since you're not a model.  There are some models who send inflated rates rather than declining, trust me, I know.

Actually, many models can, and have had it both ways, as much as it may upset you.  I'm speaking from personal experience here.   smile

And I was speaking based on mine, but more specifically from his OP, which describes his.  What you propose assumes quite a lot as well, and also puts the model in a very unbalanced power position.

I know that models work it to have it both ways.  I just won't work with them, and when asked, will call them out on it, just as I would for a photographer trying the same crap.

ETA:  Just as you models talk about which photographers are good to work with (or easy marks), so do we talk about which models try to run these games.  And, some of us even know other models who, sick of the way this makes them look bad by association, also call you out on it.

Jan 06 13 01:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3,862
Seattle, Washington, US


Lifestyle_Images wrote:

And I was speaking based on mine, but more specifically from his OP, which describes his.  What you propose assumes quite a lot as well, and also puts the model in a very unbalanced power position.

Gary is having trouble getting models to do nudes with him *despite* the fact that he's offering payment.  I have offered a solution.  You have not.

Jan 06 13 01:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,981
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


MelissaAnn  wrote:

Gary is having trouble getting models to do nudes with him *despite* the fact that he's offering payment.  I have offered a solution.  You have not.

Actually, he's confused as to why they agree to nudes at a given rate, then try to switch to fashion at the same rate.

I actually did offer him a solution:  Ignore these flakes and go hire art models from local colleges who do the work contracted like professionals.

You offered him a way to have a target painted on his back.

Jan 06 13 01:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,950
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Lifestyle_Images wrote:

It could be that nudes are more of a commodity, especially with people who don't shoot them often.  Models who make their living in this genre are well aware of this and, as your OP shows, some try to exploit that.

I say just walk away and post your castings in the art departments of the local colleges where art models work all the time without all this silly power playing.

Thanks , I have never thought of that ...Will look into this !

Jan 06 13 01:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,950
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Lifestyle_Images wrote:

Actually, he's confused as to why they agree to nudes at a given rate, then try to switch to fashion at the same rate.

Yes You are correct

Jan 06 13 01:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3,862
Seattle, Washington, US


Lifestyle_Images wrote:
Actually, he's confused as to why they agree to nudes at a given rate, then try to switch to fashion at the same rate.

I actually did offer him a solution:  Ignore these flakes and go hire art models from local colleges who do the work contracted like professionals.

You offered him a way to have a target painted on his back.

The obvious answer is: Because they don't want to do nudes with him, even for payment. 

I offered him a solution that has actually worked for some photographers......ones who were willing to put there egos aside for the sake of their own success.  Many of these photographers are ones who I trade for nudes with on a regular basis.  Putting your ego aside can pay off sometimes. wink

Jan 06 13 01:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,981
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Garry k wrote:

Thanks , I have never thought of that ...Will look into this !

Any time.  I have a friend who made a very respectable living in VanCity a few years ago doing just art work.  The advantage is that you get models with great posing ability who can hold them for quite a long time.  This gives you more time to get the images you want and play with light.

All that said, the nudes you currently have are well above the caliber a lot of my working nude models get form most of their paid gigs.

Jan 06 13 01:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,981
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


MelissaAnn  wrote:
The obvious answer is: Because they don't want to do nudes with him, even for payment. 

I offered him a solution that has actually worked for some photographers......ones who were willing to put there egos aside for the sake of their own success.

Then why on earth did they quote him nude rates?  I call BS.  If they don't want to shoot with him, but can't or won't just say that, they are playing games, and are not, IMO, professional enough to justify those or any rates.

ETA:  It's not about ego, it's about how the world of contractual employment works.  I describe a set of deliverables and the rate I am willing to pay.  If you accept, then you get paid only when you produce MY deliverables, not some other set you decide you want to provide.

Jan 06 13 01:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3,862
Seattle, Washington, US


Lifestyle_Images wrote:
Then why on earth did they quote him nude rates?  I call BS.  If they don't want to shoot with him, but can't or won't just say that, they are playing games, and are not, IMO, professional enough to justify those or any rates.

Because models do that.  You can call BS all you want, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.  It's a lot easier for a model to quote inflated rates than to simply decline an offer in some situations.  The rational is this:  if the photographer can't afford it, they'll have to decline, and then the model doesn't have to hurt the photographer's ego by telling them they're not interested, even for a lot of money.  Sometimes no amount of money is worth having terrible nude images of yourself floating around out there.

Jan 06 13 01:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lifestyle_Images
Posts: 3,981
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


MelissaAnn  wrote:

Because models do that.  You can call BS all you want, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.  It's a lot easier for a model to quote inflated rates than to simply decline an offer in some situations.  The rational is this:  if the photographer can't afford it, they'll have to decline, and then the model doesn't have to hurt the photographer's ego by telling them they're not interested, even for a lot of money.  Sometimes no amount of money is worth having terrible nude images of yourself floating around out there.

If you can't stand the possibility that terrible nude images will be out there, address it up front in a usage contract or other straightforward ADULT communication.  Your insistence that your deceitful tactic is justified lowers your credibility much more than the small chance that some hobbyist might post unflattering images of you on the Internet.

Jan 06 13 01:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,950
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Lifestyle_Images wrote:

Any time.  I have a friend who made a very respectable living in VanCity a few years ago doing just art work.  The advantage is that you get models with great posing ability who can hold them for quite a long time.  This gives you more time to get the images you want and play with light.

All that said, the nudes you currently have are well above the caliber a lot of my working nude models get form most of their paid gigs.

thanks but i consider my nudes to be the weakest part of my portfolio ... I have some ideas on how to improve my work in this genre however they are only ideas at this point

Jan 06 13 01:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3,862
Seattle, Washington, US


Lifestyle_Images wrote:
If you can't stand the possibility that terrible nude images will be out there, address it up front in a usage contract or other straightforward ADULT communication.  Your insistence that your deceitful tactic is justified lowers your credibility much more than the small chance that some hobbyist might post unflattering images of you on the Internet.

I never said it was *my* tactic, in fact, I never use that tactic, I just decline the shoot.

Jan 06 13 01:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,950
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Lifestyle_Images wrote:

If you can't stand the possibility that terrible nude images will be out there, address it up front in a usage contract or other straightforward ADULT communication.  Your insistence that your deceitful tactic is justified lowers your credibility much more than the small chance that some hobbyist might post unflattering images of you on the Internet.

I would ask that you would both stop arguing

Although Your perspectives are very different , You both have offered me some good feedback in this thread ,,,and I do appreciate that

smile

Jan 06 13 01:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3,862
Seattle, Washington, US


Garry k wrote:
I would ask that you would both stop arguing

Although Your perspectives are very different , You both have offered me some good feedback in this thread ,,,and I do appreciate that

smile

Sorry, Gary, but I believe some useful information was provided as a result.  Whether or not Lifestyle Images agrees with some of the tactics models use, doesn't change the fact that they happen.  It's good for other photographers to be aware.  I have nothing more to say on the topic at this point.

Again, best of luck.  smile

Jan 06 13 02:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,877
Portland, Oregon, US


Lifestyle_Images wrote:
Then why on earth did they quote him nude rates?  I call BS.  If they don't want to shoot with him, but can't or won't just say that, they are playing games, and are not, IMO, professional enough to justify those or any rates.

ETA:  It's not about ego, it's about how the world of contractual employment works.  I describe a set of deliverables and the rate I am willing to pay.  If you accept, then you get paid only when you produce MY deliverables, not some other set you decide you want to provide.

*sends a clue, and an extra clue*

You might want to consider that a llama sending rates does not equal a llama agreeing to a shoot, nor should you assume that every llama is going to do things like check out a person's references prior to responding to a request for rates.  Their opinions and interest may change, I'm sure that happens more often than we are aware.

I have no personal info on why Garry is encountering this problem, so I'm not going to venture a guess, but it seems to me that Melissa's comments regarding her experience of why this sort of thing may happen is spot on and makes perfect sense to me.

However, your comments suggesting that he try to work locally to improve his nude work before approaching more traveling llamas also makes sense, and will hopefully be helpful.

Jan 06 13 02:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


model emily  wrote:
For some, doing nude work can become a "pays the bills" sort of thing, even if the model doesn't personally like shooting that kind of work.

I would love to shoot with some of the travelling models, and would pay for the perfect nude (glamour) model...but this is EXACTLY why I don't want to risk payment for it.

I can just see setting up a shoot, getting the location squared away, then a model shows up who really "doesn't personally like shooting that kind of work", and does it to "pay the bills". Because that DOES show up in the connection and facial expressions in the image.

I have shot a few "partials" that were "unplanned" (surprise) additions to the regular glamour shoot when the "energy" was flowing. But, when I finally do shoot a real planned artistic nude shoot I want a model who is "invested" in the concept...and collaborates from the beginning. Not, a model that just does it to "pay the bills", or really wants a fashion shoot.

I like BOTH of these ideas...

MelissaAnn  wrote:
My suggestion to you would be this:
Propose trade for nude images.  Explain that you're new to shooting nudes, and you realize you're not that good yet.  Tell the model you'll go through the images with her, get feedback, and will only post images she likes and is comfortable with. This kind of courtesy is often enough to win a model over.  It's worked on me several times.
Lifestyle_Images wrote:
I say just walk away and post your castings in the art departments of the local colleges where art models work all the time without all this silly power playing.

Jan 06 13 02:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MB JenB
Posts: 2,922
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


Neil Snape wrote:
I get models traveling asking to do fashion pictures because they see that I have done that and they want to get out of the nudes. When I look at what they do it's evident that nudes are what they should do.

I don't get any models asking me to pay though for non nudes, and for nudes it is almost always just a travel plan seeing if they can get good photographers to pay.

When I respond, they have a choice then for TF or keep looking, exactly what I suggest. Good nude models should try to find as much paid work as possible, and only do TF if there is time permitting.

I am very naive. What a game these models are playing.

It should come back to bite them I'd imagine.
Jen
edit: however I've have a couple replies to my travel castings that I posted looking for trade where someone offers me their rates. Really? Answering my casting with their rates.

Jan 06 13 09:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BodyIndustry
Posts: 268
Washington, District of Columbia, US


Jan 06 13 10:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hugh Alison
Posts: 2,105
Aberystwyth, Wales, United Kingdom


Garry k wrote:
Most of my photography is trade with local fashion models and they are a pretty conservative bunch ( on the whole )

So on occassion i like to shoot nudes with one of those top MM models who visit my city

I will acknowledge that I am not a very good photographer in this genre- so I dont mind paying a bit of coin for the privililege of learning to improve ( however some of the models i have shot  have offered me trade - which i have accepted )

I have so far worked with a handful of such travelling models ( 6 or 7 )  , each one pleasant , skilled and professional - and the shoots have gone well

However over the past year or so I have been contacted by /or have contacted 3 travelling  models visiting my area , they have offered their "rates " for the type of shoot I am seeking , i have agreed to the rates - and instead in  response I have recieved messages stating that they really are trying to get away from doing nude work but they will do a fashion shoot for the same rate

I am starting to wonder if this is a common practice or if it is just my experience

Two comments:

First: If I was in your position, and a travelling nude model said "I want to shoot fashion", then I would tell her what I charged per hour for fashion - or offer to trade 2 hours shooting fashion for 2 hours shooting nudes.

Second: (I think I can say this without breaking the "no unsolicited critique" rule, because of the line I've highlighted above) - Yes, the nudes in your portfolio are probably putting them off - I would suggest pulling (all) of them out, and really really recommend you hire MelissaAnn for half a day - fly her in, Seattle is only next door. Let her take you out of your comfort zone and produce something new. The difference working with a really good art nude model will make to your portfolio will be amazing, and the problem will go away.

Jan 07 13 02:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,950
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Hugh Alison wrote:

Two comments:

First: If I was in your position, and a travelling nude model said "I want to shoot fashion", then I would tell her what I charged per hour for fashion - or offer to trade 2 hours shooting fashion for 2 hours shooting nudes.

Second: (I think I can say this without breaking the "no unsolicited critique" rule, because of the line I've highlighted above) - Yes, the nudes in your portfolio are probably putting them off - I would suggest pulling (all) of them out, and really really recommend you hire MelissaAnn for half a day - fly her in, Seattle is only next door. Let her take you out of your comfort zone and produce something new. The difference working with a really good art nude model will make to your portfolio will be amazing, and the problem will go away.

hmmm , that is an idea ...

smile

Jan 07 13 07:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mcary
Posts: 1,803
Fredericksburg, Virginia, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
my experience with traveling nude models goes approximately like this:

model: "i really love your work with so and so, i would really like to work with you while i'm in town."
me: (thinking to myself, this is not the type of model i would typically offer trade work to, but they do have a name and recognition in the art community) ok sure, i'd be down for shooting.
model: " ok, i have these days available"
me: "cool"
model: "oh yeah, i'm not doing trade shoots, so here are my rates" or "do you have any budget to pay me, becasae i cant come to your town unless you pay me"

all the while i know they are trading with other locals, because those guys have already told me about it..

with exception of one model out of seven, this is how it went down.
one had the courtesy to be upfront about looking for paid work.

Personally I couldn't careless that a model is willing to work trade with other photographers but wants me to pay them.   What I can't stand is the ""i really love your work with so and so, i would really like to work with you while i'm in town" and other similar BS lines.   The way I look at if if a model liked my work they'd be willing to do trade and if not they can drop all the BS and simple state what they're looking for in the way of compensation $$$.

Jan 07 13 08:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Connor Photography
Posts: 6,435
Elkton, Maryland, US


Garry k wrote:
However over the past year or so I have been contacted by /or have contacted 3 travelling  models visiting my area , they have offered their "rates " for the type of shoot I am seeking , i have agreed to the rates - and instead in  response I have recieved messages stating that they really are trying to get away from doing nude work but they will do a fashion shoot for the same rate

I am starting to wonder if this is a common practice or if it is just my experience

If their profile says NO nudes, I will not contact them. 

If the model shot nudes before and wants to switch to non-nude, it will be hard unless she is very very good and beautiful and willing to delete all here nude images.  Not too many MM models can survive full time traveling without doing nudes.  That is the way it is.

Jan 07 13 12:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kaley King
Posts: 1,027
Jefferson City, Missouri, US


I disagree with the pigeon-holed comments...I try to do more nudes really, but recently  have got more offers for different things (yes paid ones).  I'd rather do the nude work, it pays better usually, and can last longer. 

Most traveling models I imagine should be professional...maybe you said something in the msg that worried them or something? hmm
Jan 07 13 02:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Hair Stylist
Platform Artist
Posts: 157
Chicago, Illinois, US


never heard of it...
Jan 07 13 02:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
MainePaintah
Posts: 1,703
Saco, Maine, US


Edit: Sorry, meant to edit grammar on 1st page, ended up here.
Jan 07 13 03:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MB JenB
Posts: 2,922
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


Connor Photography wrote:
If their profile says NO nudes, I will not contact them. 

If the model shot nudes before and wants to switch to non-nude, it will be hard unless she is very very good and beautiful and willing to delete all here nude images.  Not too many MM models can survive full time traveling without doing nudes.  That is the way it is.

Hi,
What if the profile says "no nudes" and they contact you and they really do do nudes? Would you consider that as too inconsistant? I have the no box checked off but, that is since I prefer to be the one to initiate the nude shoots.
Jen

Jan 07 13 03:22 pm  Link  Quote 
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