login info join!
Forums > Digital Art and Retouching > Good retoucher is not skin retoucher only. Search   Reply
Photographer
sbourson
Posts: 540
Paris, Île-de-France, France


Hi

I write this post because the discussion interests me. (I'm writing in French translated by Google +)

Now find "retouchers" Indian $ 5 to give us a proper skin is relatively easy, in fact bcp editing company are doing most work by the latter and we bill $ 100 behind.

But it is not me beauty photographer what I want, I have a retoucher environment that my images look and provides more who understand our work, advise, suggest improvements that will become indispensable in the image .

Someone who'll give more to this picture, as the production team (makeup artists, hairdressers, stylists ...)

Make the skin it is the basis, the beginning, the more hair corrected if this is not fake. But after going further in the colors and style have its effects, so that the touch becomes our indispensable.

Caution should be the finisher invisible, always insinuate doubt that between what have been doing the shooting and the tablet. Yes there is still editing but whatever. When editing reads is missed.
Jan 06 13 03:09 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
FLEXmanta
Posts: 1,001
Madrid, Madrid, Spain


I completely agree. One of the last things a retoucher learns, is that the actual detail and clean-up retouching is what matters the least. Nobody cares about perfect skin. In fact, most renowned photographers run away from retouchers who only do skin and perfect eyes and hair and all of that. It is all about the color, always.

I am currently retouching L'Officiel Paris. As usual, the brief specifically asks to leave the skin almost untouched.
Jan 06 13 07:51 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
ST Retouch
Posts: 280
Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland


I also agree!
Last 3 serious Ad campaigns which I made for clients, they have insisted on almost untouched skin ( not pixel level heavy high end retouching , just some basic corrections ) .
As I can see from market and professional clients, time for perfect skin has passed, specially with high end fashion files .
Even for beauty close up shots there are no anymore perfect skin .
The most important thing for high end retouchers is to have perfect eye for new
trends, to have perfect eye for high fashion color grading, details etc.
Simply professional clients want WOW factor for retouched file, no one care anymore about perfect skin.
Jan 06 13 08:16 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Ken Fournelle
Posts: 99
Saint Paul, Minnesota, US


This is all very interesting.  How is it, then, all the high-end fashion magazines I look at still have "perfect" skin and hair?

Just asking.

k
Jan 06 13 09:08 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Megan E Griscom
Posts: 421
Bordentown, New Jersey, US


Well this is good news to me

I would love to learn more about color grading but just havent been able to find the right information. THe presets in lightroom are not right, as well as the presets in PS Colorlookup. If anyone knows of a resource please let me know.

I think the move from perfect plastic skin would be wonderful, but so much of waht I see praised on this forum and in magazines as well is exactly that.

However, I was very encouraged to see on L'oreal website, the colour riche section of makeup tutorials was almost no retouching at all.
Jan 06 13 02:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,739
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Dunno how far that stretches...(L'oreal).

Just about everyone one their web site looks pretty retouched to me...Claudia Schiffer hasn't looked that good since the 90's and Jenny from the Block looks absolutely worked over.

I agree about the color though, get that right and 90 % of the job is done.
Jan 06 13 03:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Megan E Griscom
Posts: 421
Bordentown, New Jersey, US


Illuminate wrote:
Dunno how far that stretches...(L'oreal).

Just about everyone one their web site looks pretty retouched to me...Claudia Schiffer hasn't looked that good since the 90's and Jenny from the Block looks absolutely worked over.

I agree about the color though, get that right and 90 % of the job is done.

LOL...yes I agree with that. But hey have a great section (for my teenagers) that shows you how to put eye makeup on. And i was surprised that all the eyeballs had clumpy mascara and such. They were not retouched at all.

Jan 06 13 03:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SKITA Studios
Posts: 1,563
Boston, Massachusetts, US


ST Retouch wrote:
Last 3 serious Ad campaigns which I made for clients, they have insisted on almost untouched skin ( not pixel level heavy high end retouching , just some basic corrections ) .

Is this blowback from all the recent "you can photoshop the crap out of models and claim your makeup products will make them look like that" (like a mascara company drawing in fake lashes and saying their mascara is awesome) fiasco?

Jan 06 13 04:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
pixel dimension ilusion
Posts: 1,204
Brussels, Brussels, Belgium


im not disagree but most photographer dont like artistic looks to they images
and when you do color grading you mostly add an movie type effect on the image kind of retro look so i still think it depend to ur client cause if you gone star color grading all you retouches u gone find and photographer that dont gone like it. and that make cause changes to the make up and most client dislike that
Jan 06 13 04:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Retouch007
Posts: 403
East Newark, New Jersey, US


The look nowadays is the retouched unretouched look not polished meaning make it look good and fresh faced. It depends on photographer and the product i.e. some perfume ads = fantasy those are really done but also look good not like some filter was used. There is a photographer I have worked for that likes his images looking really polished and liquified it pays the bills but I wouldn't put in my book, that is just me though.

Also, I noticed alot of people call the "look or treatment", which is what you tell a client when your discussing moves to be done not the term "color grading" but that I think is MM forum thing, am I wrong? please correct me. I haven't heard this term in any NYC retouching house/discussions I have been in.
Jan 06 13 06:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Krunoslav Stifter
Posts: 3,843
Santa Cruz, California, US


Rg Retouching wrote:
Also, I noticed alot of people call the "look or treatment", which is what you tell a client when your discussing moves to be done not the term "color grading" but that I think is MM forum thing, am I wrong? please correct me. I haven't heard this term in any NYC retouching house/discussions I have been in.

I think you can use the term color grading interchangeable for motion and still pictures, but I always heard it being used in video editing, they even have people calling themselves video colorists. In a way it could be potentially considered the equivalent of a retouchers in photography. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_grading

There is also Photographic print toning, so term color toning could be also used in digital for coloring B&W. but that is splitting hairs.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photographic_print_toning

Anyway... as for the OP's "Good retoucher is not skin retoucher only", I agree and I never consider one to be only so specialized, but it is highly popular topic among client and in portrait photography skin is what covers the models so I would say its not important, but definitely no the only thing a good retoucher should know.

Jan 06 13 07:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Retouch007
Posts: 403
East Newark, New Jersey, US


Thank you for that quick response but I personally won't ever use that term only because I would definitely seem like I don't know what I was talking about at least in these parts (retouching circles) but like always, do you! : )

I would say doing good skin is definitely just one part of the job but you should be able to do it really well (if asked) and not with filters and blurring one of the layers in freq separation thingy it's pretty obvious when it's done like that you won't get hired. I have seen a couple of people come in to test thinking they can retouch and did it that way and were never got called back that could have been me. I used to do that (only I would take opacity down some but still d&b afterward what a waste of time looking back) but good thing I had stopped experimenting with that before i got really serious. What was once hours of d&b in now 2hrs. tops with cloning/healing included. I have come along way : )
Jan 06 13 07:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,739
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Ok...but I think the kind of retouching you see on MM  is a bit on the extreme side. The models shot are not really agency standard in most cases..the makeup, hair and styling aren't there. A lot of retouching is needed to bring them up to a portfolio level of showing.

Professional models have features that are generally attractive to the public and they are turbo charged with a full team on a shoot. They often need much less retouching for bad skin, ratty hair and worn, unpressed clothing. I'm not talking about aging celebs who are commercially trendy right now to help sell magazines..ones like Kim K who need lot's of liquefying etc. I'm talking about real models.
Jan 06 13 08:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Paul Snyder
Posts: 87
Columbus, Ohio, US


Obviously a fantastic retoucher isn't only going to be great at just the skin.  In fact, as a retoucher, I get excited when a model's skin is fantastic because I have more time to focus on creating an atmosphere and a look for the image instead of concentrating on corrections. 

However, I have the current issues of Vogue, W Magazine, and Elle on my desk in front of me right now, and I'm not going to lie and say that everyone is going for more "unretouched" skin looks. That's simply not true in it's entirety.  Some are, but it's going to depend on the purpose of the image: what the end target is.  It's also going to depend on the aesthetic of the photographer. 

Color treatment/grading is something that doesn't always come naturally.  Some images are going to be easier to figure out than others.  Sometimes for me it just comes with experimenting or trial and error, especially for some clients who aren't sure exactly what they want. I'm actually working on a set of images right now that has been challenging to figure out how I want to color it.  But the series I just finished came together perfectly and without much difficulty.
Jan 06 13 08:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Paul Snyder
Posts: 87
Columbus, Ohio, US


Illuminate wrote:
Ok...but I think the kind of retouching you see on MM  is a bit on the extreme side. The models shot are not really agency standard in most cases..the makeup, hair and styling aren't there. A lot of retouching is needed to bring them up to a portfolio level of showing.

Professional models have features that are generally attractive to the public and they are turbo charged with a full team on a shoot. They often need much less retouching for bad skin, ratty hair and worn, unpressed clothing. I'm not talking about aging celebs who are commercially trendy right now to help sell magazines..ones like Kim K who need lot's of liquefying etc. I'm talking about real models.

You actually make a very good point as well (something I sort of just touched on in my post)

This provides more time for the retoucher to work on creating a look or atmosphere for the image and less time on corrections, etc. 

As a retoucher you gotta work yourself up to get those models that are simply gorgeous without any work at all.

Jan 06 13 08:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Retouch007
Posts: 403
East Newark, New Jersey, US


No, my friend the look is the retouched unretouched look. I have done work for one of those magazines you have mentioned (several times in the past and ongoing) and got really good feedback from higher ups. I started here on MM and would love to see others do the same (but still not truly there yet but working on it) the great teacher Kruno will tell you.
Jan 06 13 08:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Retouch007
Posts: 403
East Newark, New Jersey, US


Illuminate wrote:
Ok...but I think the kind of retouching you see on MM  is a bit on the extreme side. The models shot are not really agency standard in most cases..the makeup, hair and styling aren't there. A lot of retouching is needed to bring them up to a portfolio level of showing.

Professional models have features that are generally attractive to the public and they are turbo charged with a full team on a shoot. They often need much less retouching for bad skin, ratty hair and worn, unpressed clothing. I'm not talking about aging celebs who are commercially trendy right now to help sell magazines..ones like Kim K who need lot's of liquefying etc. I'm talking about real models.

I agree with you 100% but so extreme it doesn't look good you have to learn how to make it look good. True lots of pro models don't need much work and some do but even if you do  you don't want to lose the face of the model it has to look like her/him.

Jan 06 13 08:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
btdsgn
Posts: 2,212
Wahiawa, Hawaii, US


I'm no expert, but the one thing I've learned through my experiences as a retoucher is that there is no magic formula. I've had images published in Italian Vogue that have the retouched unretouched look and images in Russian Vogue that go to what I consider the extreme of tasteful retouching.

As far as photographers go, the more established bigger names seem to want the retouched unretouched look, while the newer more cutting edge up and comers seem to want more extreme retouching which doesn't necessarily mean perfection.

Either way, for me it’s all about finding photographers you enjoy working with and making a living. If you’re not getting work, then you’re doing something wrong whether it’s your technique, your networking or in some cases I’ve even seen retouchers avoided for their personalities.
Jan 06 13 08:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Paul Snyder
Posts: 87
Columbus, Ohio, US


btdsgn wrote:
I'm no expert, but the one thing I've learned through my experiences as a retoucher is that there is no magic formula. I've had images published in Italian Vogue that have the retouched unretouched look and images in Russian Vogue that go to what I consider the extreme of tasteful retouching.

exactly.

Jan 06 13 08:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,196
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Rg Retouching wrote:
The look nowadays is the retouched unretouched look not polished meaning make it look good and fresh faced. It depends on photographer and the product i.e. some perfume ads = fantasy those are really done but also look good not like some filter was used. There is a photographer I have worked for that likes his images looking really polished and liquified it pays the bills but I wouldn't put in my book, that is just me though.

Also, I noticed alot of people call the "look or treatment", which is what you tell a client when your discussing moves to be done not the term "color grading" but that I think is MM forum thing, am I wrong? please correct me. I haven't heard this term in any NYC retouching house/discussions I have been in.

A treatment in video is how one will treat the creative, a first proposal for how they see it and it's usually done by directors.  Some photographers will also do them during the bid process.  As others have mentioned color grading is also a old video term and not some MM or Internet term.

So you may not have heard them used in still retouching as they are very much starts in video about 20-30 years ago

Back to the point, recent events have caused the makeup manufactures to start to ask for less retocuhed work, but not all of them.  Fashion is also trending into the more gritty and grainy world of retro looking film images.  It's a trend and I am sure it will swing the other way again in a few years...

Jan 06 13 09:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Retouch007
Posts: 403
East Newark, New Jersey, US


btdsgn wrote:
I'm no expert, but the one thing I've learned through my experiences as a retoucher is that there is no magic formula. I've had images published in Italian Vogue that have the retouched unretouched look and images in Russian Vogue that go to what I consider the extreme of tasteful retouching.

As far as photographers go, the more established bigger names seem to want the retouched unretouched look, while the newer more cutting edge up and comers seem to want more extreme retouching which doesn't necessarily mean perfection.

Either way, for me it’s all about finding photographers you enjoy working with and making a living. If you’re not getting work, then you’re doing something wrong whether it’s your technique, your networking or in some cases I’ve even seen retouchers avoided for their personalities.

Yes, the Indian and Chinese market like extreme I didn't know Russia was like that.

Jan 06 13 09:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Retouch007
Posts: 403
East Newark, New Jersey, US


AJScalzitti wrote:

A treatment in video is how one will treat the creative, a first proposal for how they see it and it's usually done by directors.  Some photographers will also do them during the bid process.  As others have mentioned color grading is also a old video term and not some MM or Internet term.

So you may not have heard them used in still retouching as they are very much starts in video about 20-30 years ago

Back to the point, recent events have caused the makeup manufactures to start to ask for less retocuhed work, but not all of them.  Fashion is also trending into the more gritty and grainy world of retro looking film images.  It's a trend and I am sure it will swing the other way again in a few years...

I work for several photographers and they each have their particular looks but got to be able to do the editorial and the polished look I would say remain flexible and learn both it's well worth it.

Jan 06 13 09:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Laura EB
Posts: 65
Rochester, New York, US


I'm kinda new to retouching but this is news to me.  I'm aware that certain photographers do want a more natural look, however if you look up the top beauty editorials of 2012 nearly all of them look like the skin has been sculpted to near perfection.  I'm not saying skin is the only thing you should know and, yes, when you get to work with models with near perfect skin it becomes less of an issue, however it's still a very integral part of retouching and not something I feel should be brushed off as unimportant.  Part of being a good retoucher is knowing how to solve lots of different problems, and if a client comes to you with a model that needs serious skin repair you sure as heck better know how to fix it.  Being well rounded is good, so just because certain clients (for major magazines or not) might not want polished skin doesn't mean all clients will feel that way, it's still a good skill to have and practice just like everything else.
Jan 08 13 10:23 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Avilio
Posts: 56
Tegucigalpa, Distrito Central, Honduras


Excellent thread, its a pleasure to read it.
Jan 10 13 05:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
MarkusKister Retouching
Posts: 196
Ratingen, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


btdsgn wrote:
I'm no expert, but the one thing I've learned through my experiences as a retoucher is that there is no magic formula. I've had images published in Italian Vogue that have the retouched unretouched look and images in Russian Vogue that go to what I consider the extreme of tasteful retouching.

As far as photographers go, the more established bigger names seem to want the retouched unretouched look, while the newer more cutting edge up and comers seem to want more extreme retouching which doesn't necessarily mean perfection.

Either way, for me it’s all about finding photographers you enjoy working with and making a living. If you’re not getting work, then you’re doing something wrong whether it’s your technique, your networking or in some cases I’ve even seen retouchers avoided for their personalities.

absolutely right!!

Jan 11 13 12:38 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
retouchbysui
Posts: 99
London, England, United Kingdom


Having high end retouching skills is amazing but having the creativity for toning and colour contrast takes a retoucher up a level if done right.
Apr 16 13 05:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
Marieljn
Posts: 99
Manila, National Capital Region, Philippines


To OP, I certainly agree.

ST Retouch wrote:
As I can see from market and professional clients, time for perfect skin has passed, specially with high end fashion files.

I observe this as well.

Apr 17 13 04:21 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
nobody frm nowhere
Posts: 25
Nottingham, Maryland, US


Ken Fournelle wrote:
This is all very interesting.  How is it, then, all the high-end fashion magazines I look at still have "perfect" skin and hair?

Just asking.

k

repeat smile

Apr 17 13 03:23 pm  Link  Quote 
  Search   Reply



main | browse | casting/travel | forums | shout box | help | advertising | contests | share | join the mayhem

more modelmayhem on: | | | edu

©2006-2014 ModelMayhem.com. All Rights Reserved.
MODEL MAYHEM is a registered trademark.
Toggle Worksafe Mode: Off | On
Terms | Privacy | Careers