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Makeup Artist
Pinch of Pretty MUA
Posts: 46
Deerfield Beach, Florida, US


I just wanted to know if any other MUAs who have done TFP have not received their photos after a photo shoot. I want to know what is a reasonable amount of time.  I feel like after a month, I should have my photos. And I didnt even receive a reply after emailing him. I thought that was very rude and unprofessional.
Jan 07 13 10:55 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
KDM
Posts: 373
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


This is probably a pretty common experience. It's happened to me twice. And I can name names, as I found both parties on this site.
Jan 07 13 10:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Caveman Creations
Posts: 580
Fort Worth, Texas, US


I generally will deliver images within two weeks, but all of my paperwork states 90 days. Not taking up for the guy, but no one has a crystal ball. I have no idea how busy I will, or can, get in a weeks time.
Jan 07 13 11:01 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Katy G
Posts: 286
Yucaipa, California, US


It can easily take a couple of months to get your photos, if they're a particularly busy photographer who shoots often and/or they also have a day job, families, etc. How long has it been since you emailed the photographer?
Jan 07 13 11:02 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
KJB
Posts: 1,184
New York, New York, US


What was the agreed time frame in the deal memo?
Jan 07 13 11:06 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Angie L MUA
Posts: 49
Los Angeles, California, US


Is this photographer well known? worked with other people? a GWC [guy with camera]?

Unfortunately, this is the risk you take when testing. It's happened to me a few times when I started out. I still haven't received photos from a photographer I worked with two years ago and I don't expect to. Shoot the photog one last email. If he still doesn't respond, take it as a lesson and move on.
Jan 07 13 11:13 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Pinch of Pretty MUA
Posts: 46
Deerfield Beach, Florida, US


Katy Gonzalez wrote:
It can easily take a couple of months to get your photos, if they're a particularly busy photographer who shoots often and/or they also have a day job, families, etc. How long has it been since you emailed the photographer?

Its been about 2 months. There was no agreed time frame, but he has posted of few of the photographs on social media sites, but only one has been a proper photo for my portfolio. And this one photo, I stumbled upon. He did tag me in like 2. I mean this was a long shoot. Where are the rest of the pictures? LOL. He is a great photographer but I dont think I will work with him again. I didnt like not receiving a reply from to my email. And you know with tech today, it told me that he read it.

Jan 07 13 11:17 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Pinch of Pretty MUA
Posts: 46
Deerfield Beach, Florida, US


Angie L MUA wrote:
Is this photographer well known? worked with other people? a GWC [guy with camera]?

Unfortunately, this is the risk you take when testing. It's happened to me a few times when I started out. I still haven't received photos from a photographer I worked with two years ago and I don't expect to. Shoot the photog one last email. If he still doesn't respond, take it as a lesson and move on.

I cant say if he is well known, that was my first time working with him. And Ive only been freelancing for a few months. Almost a year. But Im a newbie, so I dont know whos who. But he is on MM and he books quite a bit of shoots.

Jan 07 13 11:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,332
Orlando, Florida, US


are jerks.
Jan 07 13 11:23 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Katy G
Posts: 286
Yucaipa, California, US


Pinch of Pretty MUA wrote:
There was not agreed time frame, but he has posted of few of the photographs on social media sites, but only one has been a proper photo for my portfolio. And this one photo, I stumbled upon. He did tag me in like 2.

You should (very politely) email him again and request print size quality images of your work (especially ones you think you might wanna use for a physical portfolio) and tell him that's the purpose as a prompt. Ask him to email the pictures to you.

I have a couple of photographers I've worked with as a team before. Very nice people, excellent photographers and very accommodating to my requests, however, they tend to post all the images on Facebook and I can only assume (since there is a lack of communication on their ends) they expect the team members to save the small pixelated images from there. It's irksome that I've had to email them to request better, larger copies, but I'm nice about it and so they respond nicely and deliver what I request.

Unprofessional, yes, but sometimes it doesn't readily occur to people what they *should* be doing for their work partners. If it's all not worth putting up with, definitely don't work with him again. If it weren't for the fact that I've gotten some amazing, significantly port boosting images from my pair, I'd have moved on already. I keep in contact though and hope to work with them again, because I know they'll deliver awesomeness, every time; the little bit of frustration is worth it.

Jan 07 13 11:39 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Simire MUA
Posts: 91
London, England, United Kingdom


Sorry this happened to you. I have had this occur to myself several times when i started out with TF shoots.

There is absolutely no excuse for this pig ignorant behaviour.

I agree with KJB, a deal memo is essential here. Agree on a set time as well as other criteria (print size, quality, is it portfolio worthy for make up etc) and they have to deliver by this time frame regardless of how busy they are with.....other 'stuff', paid work, a gazillion shoots with A-listers, dog is pregnant, washing hair, family outing, school run or whatever ridiculous claims they can make up. TF work requires immense commitment (time, travel, product expenditure, usage of tools etc) and you have upheld your side of the bargain.

After creating my memo, i started sending it out to any photog requesting TF work and i have not had any further issues (fingers crossed). The flakes tend to stop communicating once they have read through it....win win situation
Jan 07 13 12:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Pinch of Pretty MUA
Posts: 46
Deerfield Beach, Florida, US


Simire MUA wrote:
Sorry this happened to you. I have had this occur to myself several times when i started out with TF shoots.

There is absolutely no excuse for this pig ignorant behaviour.

I agree with KJB, a deal memo is essential here. Agree on a set time as well as other criteria (print size, quality, is it portfolio worthy for make up etc)...

I am in the midst of creating contracts. I was going to do it just for individual freelance clients and bridal jobs, but I wondering should I do it for TFP photo shoots now. A lot of the time these TFP jobs are spur of the moment. I dont want to inconvenience anyone or rather, make them feel pressured but at the same time, I WANT MY PICTURES because as you stated, I've held up my end of bargain. It just really sucks to not get your half.

Jan 07 13 12:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Angie L MUA
Posts: 49
Los Angeles, California, US


Pinch of Pretty MUA wrote:
I am in the midst of creating contracts. I was going to do it just for individual freelance clients and bridal jobs, but I wondering should I do it for TFP photo shoots now. A lot of the time these TFP jobs are spur of the moment. I dont want to inconvenience anyone or rather, make them feel pressured but at the same time, I WANT MY PICTURES because as you stated, I've held up my end of bargain. It just really sucks to not get your half.

It's never a good feeling to be of inconvenience, but a memo will cover your butt. Regardless of how weird it may seem for a test shoot, you're the one at loss with no photos to prove the time, gas, and effort you spent on that FREE shoot. If they don't want to sign it, you know to not work with them smile One to two months is the longest I'll wait for pictures.

Jan 07 13 04:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M A S T E R S
Posts: 309
Murphys, California, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
are jerks.

I see what you did there. I concur.

Jan 07 13 05:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Jaime Criel Makeup
Posts: 149
New York, New York, US


In my opinion, pictures from a test should be received within a month unless otherwise agreed upon between the photographer and you. Unfortunately, this has happened a ton of times in my career and it really ends up just being something you have to suck up. If it makes you feel any better, a photographer that behaves that way will never make it in the industry. Write one more email listing the time frame and that you ask for your pictures now. But most likely, just chalk it up as practice, forget it, and move on.
Jan 07 13 05:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DavidCoward Photography
Posts: 629
Sandy Springs, Georgia, US


I'm not as busy as a lot of people are and so can devote more time to post-processing. Depending on how many photos I'm working on and the amount of processing involved, it can take up to 2 weeks.

A lot of times, the model is very excited to see the finished product (and upload them here or on Facebook), so I try to send her a couple of the better shots within a day or so.
Jan 07 13 06:21 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,155
Coronado, California, US


lets be real here....  If a photographer has time to test with newbies (an entire day of nothing else to do) ...he or she has time to get the photos to you...  The photos just suck or the photographer is a complete idiot who doesn't know how to manage their time.... Either way...there isn't much you can do... You can't really ruin the reputation of someone like this...they won't have one to begin with.  Do your homework before shooting...that's the best advice I can give you
Jan 07 13 07:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DG at studio47
Posts: 2,364
East Ridge, Tennessee, US


if a photographer is too busy to be "professional" with someone, they should not agree to a shoot'
this subject echos here all the time. flaking, no images, no communication.bad reputations built daily.
Jan 07 13 07:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
LC Makeup and Styling
Posts: 90
Perth, Western Australia, Australia


Ive had this experience before. It's very unpleasant. To not reply to you is very unprofessional. It's like a brush off.  I always ask now how long roughly it will take to receive pics and they are pretty good and get them to me within 2 weeks, but one photographer politely told me that his paid customers will come before tfp ones, which is understandable I guess, but even if thats the case, they should be able to give you an estimated time frame and keep in contact.
Jan 07 13 11:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Kim Y
Posts: 235
Los Angeles, California, US


It happens... it doesnt matter if the photographer is booking tons of paid jobs, once in awhile tests, or a newbie. I have had a variety of photographers who hasnt given me the photos. You can ask and ask.. but after a certain time you should just move on and shoot with someone else. There is nothing you can do.
Jan 08 13 12:49 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Simire MUA
Posts: 91
London, England, United Kingdom


Pinch of Pretty MUA wrote:
...........I wondering should I do it for TFP photo shoots now. A lot of the time these TFP jobs are spur of the moment. I dont want to inconvenience anyone or rather, make them feel pressured but at the same time, I WANT MY PICTURES because as you stated, I've held up my end of bargain. It just really sucks to not get your half.

What i do for last minute TF requests is fire them an email with specific questions that need to be answered. This includes concept for the shoot, make up style and examples, start time and duration, number and profile of models, if hairstyling is needed, size of prints and number of prints, how many looks, any close ups showing make up, high or low res images, location, is a makeup station with appropriate lighting present etc etc etc. If you carry out a basic search on MM under deal memo and also a similar question to your OP you'll come up with tons of info you can use and customise. Professional photogs will have no issues with your questions. You will then be able to weed out the unserious and unprofessional characters by their responses or lack of communication. Also looking through their profile and referencing who they have worked with in addition to what i mentioned will try to minimise this unfortunate and very common negative experiences.....however it is not fool proof im afraid. Despite all your efforts in pre shoot prep you'll still encounter these nuisance vermin along the way and i would advice you to shrug it off. With time you should be able to build up a nice and professional relationship with a number of professional photogs and create a solid portfolio for yourself. It might not feel like that now but this shoot is a good learning curve for yourself and will help you evolve.

Your questions should not inconvenience anyone as you are being asked to give them your time (most valuable commodity in my book), energy, skills, finance(through products, tools, transport) etc. Therefore it is imperative you hone your demands as adviced above to ensure you will be compensated adequately for it.

Jan 08 13 01:34 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
sweetcheekscouture
Posts: 427
West Palm Beach, Florida, US


I am sorry this happened to you -- that really stinks.

Maybe the photos did not turn out well but there really is no excuse for not returning your email. I don't know how many times you have gotten in touch with the photographer but perhaps you should try one more politely worded email or phone call.

If that doesn't work, I'd let it go and move on to the next one.

Have you considered taking a point n shoot with you to take your own "candids."

Now you would have to clear it with the photographer first ( I know when I am shooting for publication the publishers don't want any photos taken on set) but at least you would have something.
Jan 08 13 02:12 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Jaime Criel Makeup
Posts: 149
New York, New York, US


You HAVE to do TFP shoots to be a makeup artist. You won't just find paid work without a built portfolio. Even the top makeup artists in the world continue to test, it's just a part of what we do to continue to further ourselves.

When I do a test shoot, I treat it the exact way I would a paid job. There is a ton of correspondence between the photographer and me and everything is extremely well planned and discussed beforehand. A test costs me money (time and the expensive products I keep in my kit) so I treat it as such.

Don't let a little thing like this dampen your "TFP spirit" smile
Jan 08 13 08:22 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
BMR-MUA
Posts: 548
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Pinch of Pretty MUA wrote:
I just wanted to know if any other MUAs who have done TFP have not received their photos after a photo shoot. I want to know what is a reasonable amount of time.  I feel like after a month, I should have my photos. And I didnt even receive a reply after emailing him. I thought that was very rude and unprofessional.

You should at very least receive a set of contacts (digital or otherwise) within a few days of the shoot. If the photographer has enough time to do a test shoot, then they should have enough time to generate some low res contacts to email to the participants. This gives everyone rapid feedback on the shoot.

KJB wrote:
What was the agreed time frame in the deal memo?

The above is the correct answer. You can use either a Deal Memo or a Letter of Agreement; both are similar. See Deal Memos at Film Underground and Letter of Agreement at the Graphic Artists Guild for more.

You should also receive a copy of any Model Agreement along with any images since you'll be making use of the model's likeness.

Edit: Here is a sample Letter of Agreement, based on the Graphic Artists Guild lette. I make no claims regarding the effectiveness of this letter. Please note that it relies on industry standards PLUS and UPDIG for licensing and delivery of the images.

Jan 08 13 09:54 am  Link  Quote 
Model
LeB
Posts: 298
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


I've had photographers not give me pictures as they didn't turn out as well as hoped. I don't mind, I don't want average pictures, even if I've put in the days work. He or she should let you know though.
Jan 08 13 10:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 17,962
Albany, New York, US


Pinch of Pretty MUA wrote:
I just wanted to know if any other MUAs who have done TFP have not received their photos after a photo shoot. I want to know what is a reasonable amount of time.  I feel like after a month, I should have my photos. And I didnt even receive a reply after emailing him. I thought that was very rude and unprofessional.

"Reasonable" is relative & really needs to be discussed before you commit. Because people here on MM will tell you anywhere from 2 days to 2 months to 2 years.

Jan 08 13 10:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,796
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Par for the course...like models who flake, makeup artist who over-estimate their ability etc. This is MM...you steer your ship best you can and learn along the way.
Jan 08 13 10:48 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Tegan Lynn
Posts: 993
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada


It sucks, but it happens. I recently found an (uncredited) image I did for TFP (as a makeup artist) in a local calendar being sold around town... this after numerous messages to the photographer requesting images for my portfolio... and no response. This is why, as has been stated numerous times above, a deal memo is your best friend. We all have to learn the hard way, and I certainly won't be working with anyone who refuses to sign my deal memo in the future.
Jan 08 13 11:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,348
Salem, Oregon, US


send them an invoice for your time and say they can either pay the invoice or give me my f*cking photos already! or just stop doing TF unless it's someone you already know and trust. or take your own pics while on set. at the last wedding we shot the cake person installed the cake and then spent 10 minutes shooting it.

think what would naomi campbell do. hit them with a phone. lol

or mention that your boyfriend is doing hard time at the local prison but they let him out on weekends sometimes.

and CAM them if they are on mayhem.
Jan 08 13 12:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Daphney109
Posts: 30
Orlando, Florida, US


This has happend to me in the past. A MUA put out a casting call and I responded and got book. When I showed up their were two other models and a hairstylist. The photographer showed up when we were almost finish getting dolled up. The entire process took two hours. He shot us and allowed us to look at the pics through his camra, everything looked great. Two days later he sent me the spread sheet via email to pick out five of my favorites for editing. Two months later I dtill didn't get the pictures I email him, and he said he has been extremely busy which is understandable. Then six more months went by "nothing" I email him again and he still hasn't gotten back to me. The shoot was in December of 2011 it is now 2013. I'm just annoyed that he did not contact me back. He could have simply said "oh I lost the pictures" anything would have been better than no response. Those were great pictures that could have help better my portfolio, but I have gotten over it. It's tough just reference him as a "unprofessional" and call it a day. Just like there is a lot of unprofessional models there are a lot of wonnabee photographers too.
Jan 10 13 10:36 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Carmilla Jo
Posts: 276
Berkeley, California, US


DG at studio47 wrote:
if a photographer is too busy to be "professional" with someone, they should not agree to a shoot

^This

Jan 10 13 04:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Magnolia Beauty
Posts: 56
Summerville, South Carolina, US


Pinch of Pretty MUA wrote:

I cant say if he is well known, that was my first time working with him. And Ive only been freelancing for a few months. Almost a year. But Im a newbie, so I dont know whos who. But he is on MM and he books quite a bit of shoots.

I'm really glad you are asking this pinch of pretty and it's very helpful to read other's advice and experiences.

I have a question to add and I think I will try adding it here before making a new forum b.c it's sort of relative.

So a photog I worked with a few times (twice TF, twice paid) has never given me any CD and I asked a few times, but he's been too busy. Finally I had contacted him letting him no it would not matter if the photos are edited, I just need a few recent examples of work to submit to a fashion week jury. He gave me a link to his site that he uploaded everything on along with the password, but asked me not to publish anything that wasn't edited. I honestly prefer the non edited photos, the ones that are seem to have the blurred skin look and it doesn't show the contouring and eye makeup well. These are no good on a mu port. The non-edited ones are amazing despite the obvious such as blemishes... So I saved them and just PS'd out the blems to email to the jury. I'm dying to put these online in my port. Would it be rude of me to ask to use the non-edited photos considering I ps'd the blemish myself?


Despite this photographer never having given me a CD and over-editing skin that makes it unusable to me, I have gotten paid work through him, and have connected with paying clients through him as well. His studio set up is great, he's a wedding photographer who offers 'glamour sessions' and that kind of photog is a great resource to have as a mu! I try not to make a fuss because I want to be on his good side!!! What should I do?

Jan 11 13 08:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R80
Posts: 2,569
Marceline, Missouri, US


You could easily have checked in the commonly asked questions section or whatever it is and gotten a multitude of the same answers whether it be concerning MUAs or models.  It seems all you can do to prevent this problem is try to research your intended photographer.  Remember that this site is far from pros only and dedication to the field is somewhat lacking.

When/if you find someone you can rely on, I'd try to stick with them as much as possible.  Get your references on others from them or a trusted model or MUA you know that has worked with someone on here.

I don't buy the "oh, I got busy" excuse.  Whether paid or an agreed upon TF shoot, someone in any business should honor their commitments.  Word of mouth is one of the best, or worst advertising means out there.  Performing a job within a timeline is nothing more than a habit to the working pro.  If you can't deliver what you promise by when you promise, you need another line of work.  If this biz is nothing more than a hobby, one should inform the "client" of such and let them know it may be when hell freezes over that their images are delivered.  No company would hire someone with a delivery attitude you describe.  Time is money and few companies want to flush money down the drain.

On the other hand, if you're here to try to break into the business without any financial expenditure, then you must realize the risk.  You are banking on the honesty of another person who may just be a "dabbler".  Herewith, we can't even quote, "ya pay yer money, ya take yer chances."
Jan 11 13 07:01 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,155
Coronado, California, US


Jaime Criel Makeup wrote:
You HAVE to do TFP shoots to be a makeup artist. You won't just find paid work without a built portfolio. Even the top makeup artists in the world continue to test, it's just a part of what we do to continue to further ourselves.

When I do a test shoot, I treat it the exact way I would a paid job. There is a ton of correspondence between the photographer and me and everything is extremely well planned and discussed beforehand. A test costs me money (time and the expensive products I keep in my kit) so I treat it as such.

Don't let a little thing like this dampen your "TFP spirit" smile

I actually don't believe that artists that do Magazine covers on a regular basis would have any reason to test.  I don't test because the paid work I get is always better then any test I can get here....the great photographers around here don't test at all.... Really, they don't...they're very busy on paid jobs.  I don't have any artist friends testing in my area...Just the newer artists are testing here.   I think before you have a portfolio you need to test but if you're working constantly and putting paid work in your book, I just don't see the point?    I know many will argue with me.... but try sending Sharon Gault or anyone at any major agency a test request....I can tell you what the answer will be

Jan 11 13 07:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,490
Houston, Texas, US


Models typicaly suffer from under-interest, which leads to cancellations and flakes, while photographers suffer from over-interest, which leads to shooting every chance they get at the expense of finishing work on hopelessly backlogged earlier shoots. Thus models don't get images.
Jan 11 13 07:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
IMAGINE IT IMAGING
Posts: 10
Akron, Ohio, US


This is just rude behavior. If you take the shoot, the llama deserves to be paid promptly, even if it is in images.

While not every image deserves to be included in what they get (good photographers are ruthless self editors, just as a lot of good llamas are).

As to the time it takes for most photographers: assuming a 1000 shot session (which is very heavy), Let's say 200 deserve to be looked at carefully. Fifty might deserve post processing. Ten might become serious contenders to be 'heros'.

With today's great software solutions, one 4 hour session should do everything (sorting, rating, exposure adjustments etc.) except perhaps the final edits on the ten hero choices. About nine hundred fifty would not get any post and would get edited out of contention. One-half to one hour for posting on the 50 finalists with extra on the top ten.
Jan 11 13 09:47 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
Mary
Posts: 7,155
Coronado, California, US


also...to the OP... If you can not find the photos on the photographers site. They suck...end of story, you don't want to see them.  If you do find them on the photographers site, just copy them for your own.  My entire portfolio comes from stuff I find on clients sites or in magazines...It won't be good for a hard cover book but fine for your website.
Jan 12 13 08:28 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jordan L Duncan
Posts: 207
Jacksonville, Florida, US


Pinch of Pretty MUA wrote:

Its been about 2 months. There was no agreed time frame, but he has posted of few of the photographs on social media sites, but only one has been a proper photo for my portfolio. And this one photo, I stumbled upon. He did tag me in like 2. I mean this was a long shoot. Where are the rest of the pictures? LOL. He is a great photographer but I dont think I will work with him again. I didnt like not receiving a reply from to my email. And you know with tech today, it told me that he read it.

This has happened to me as a model a few times. I see threads like this all the time. Sometimes they just don't give you any photos back and sometimes they disappear from the face of the earth all together.

Email him/call him/whatever one last time, as nicely as you can. Maybe something like, "Hi! I saw the pictures you posted from our shoot and I love how they turned out. Can you email the files to me so I can use them in my port? I especially love (the picture you said you could use in your port) and I can't wait to show them to my clients!" He should take the hint and send you your files. If not, take it as a lesson learned and if someone asks you for a reference for him you already know what to say.

After having this happen to me more than once, I now check 5 references for every photographer, and when I do I ask how many pictures the model received and if it was in a timely manner, or time agreed upon, or whatever.

Jan 13 13 10:30 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jordan L Duncan
Posts: 207
Jacksonville, Florida, US


Kim Y wrote:
It happens... it doesnt matter if the photographer is booking tons of paid jobs, once in awhile tests, or a newbie. I have had a variety of photographers who hasnt given me the photos. You can ask and ask.. but after a certain time you should just move on and shoot with someone else. There is nothing you can do.

I know right? But how long does it take to attach a file to an email? Hardly any time at all!

Jan 13 13 10:36 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Makeup Artist
TheMakeupMan
Posts: 3,753
Los Angeles, California, US


Thats only happened once to me and the douche bag actually had it hanging in a gallery ..............................    needless to say I did have the luck to "get him back" when I was doing makeup for a huge british magazine and the editor asked me about their list of photographers they were using and he was on it ,,,,, I shared my experience and he was cut from the list .................... sadly im still irked about the image and shoot , it was really good and timeless

Edit.  And I just went to his site and its still there under press!!!!

What a Weener
Jan 13 13 04:46 pm  Link  Quote 
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