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Photographer
Rick OBanion Photo
Posts: 1,351
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada


If you don't shoot TF just say so on your profile. More than once I have contacted models who have "depends on assignment' and they reply that they do not do TF.
Now if they didn't want to do TF with me they would quote me rates.
The last few I mentioned a concept, and asked if they were interested, I said nothing about terms...they just replied back....I don't do any TF.
That ended it for me. Had they replied back with 'I like your idea but it doesn't help my profile improve, but if you are interested, here are my rates...'
then perhaps more dialogue could have happened.

So I guess I am just saying, please make your profile accurate. It is starting to feel like bait and switch.


For all the awesome people who keep their profiles up to date...keep being awesome.  smile
Jan 07 13 04:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
angel emily
Posts: 1,020
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Rick Takes Pics wrote:
If you don't shoot TF just say so on your profile. More than once I have contacted models who have "depends on assignment' and they reply that they do not do TF.  Now if they didn't want to do TF with me they would quote me rates.

If they really don't do any trade at all, and it says depends on assignment, shame on them.

But many models keep the window open for opportunity and really very selectively trade.  It's also possible they didn't have interest in working with you at all, not even for money.  It's not necessarily "trade or pay" with some models, sometimes models just are very selective with the photographers they work with, period. 

Or, they're just terrible salespeople who don't know how to properly market themselves.

Jan 07 13 04:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,738
Atlanta, Georgia, US


But all serious models trade shoot, it's just been part of the bizz for decades.  It doesn't matter if the model is Coco, they all need to keep their books current and all of them have a desire to create something inspiring; it's just the matter of the right idea.

I do however understand your troubles I just don't see a solution
Jan 07 13 04:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
NicoleNudes
Posts: 3,846
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


model emily  wrote:

If they really don't do any trade at all, and it says depends on assignment, shame on them.

But many models keep the window open for opportunity and really very selectively trade.   It's also possible they didn't have interest in working with you at all, not even for money.  It's not necessarily "trade or pay" with some models, sometimes models just are very selective with the photographers they work with, period. 

Or, they're just terrible salespeople who don't know how to properly market themselves.

this

Jan 07 13 04:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,084
Alexandria, Virginia, US


no matter who you are -  how "good" you are -   you need to work with other really good - or better - people sometimes - if you want to maintain a dynamic portfolio -

anyone who literally *never* trades must not care about that -  I have seen ports where all of the images were a couple of years old -   that is a red flag for me from anyone asking for rates of any kind....

I will say though that these bits in profiles do not mean much  -  I've seen models who said "any" in compensation turn around and tell people paid only - the just used "any" to get more response

OTOH

I've run into models who said "paid only" and were not a hard sell on trading at all.....
Jan 07 13 04:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,651
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


model emily  wrote:

If they really don't do any trade at all, and it says depends on assignment, shame on them.

But many models keep the window open for opportunity and really very selectively trade.  It's also possible they didn't have interest in working with you at all, not even for money.  It's not necessarily "trade or pay" with some models, sometimes models just are very selective with the photographers they work with, period. 

Or, they're just terrible salespeople who don't know how to properly market themselves.

I agree also. By them telling you they don't do TF what they are REALLY telling you is that they either don't feel your portfolio of work is reflective of the type of work they would want as trade or they don't feel the concept of your shoot is of benefit to them. It's their way of being polite and turning you down without saying the above.

Think of it like this. Imagine there is a cute girl working behind the counter at Starbucks. One guy walks up and looks confident, is strikingly handsome, wears nice clothes and speaks well. He asks her out on a date and she says "yes". Then another guy comes along who's fat, unattractive, sloppy in appearance, and seems shy and onconfident and asks out the same girl. Rather than say, "You are a dorky looking loser" she says, "Sorry, I don't date customers". Hence, she establishes the rule as her out rather than saying something that might hurt someone's feelings in the process.

Jan 07 13 04:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Lynn Elizabeth
Posts: 1,336
Coral Springs, Florida, US


Since that model had "depends on assignment" perhaps the concept you asked her about was not one she was wanted a trade for. By having "depends on assignment" she is leaving the door open for some concept she will trade for to come along.
Jan 07 13 04:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Scarlett Renee
Posts: 217
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Rick Takes Pics wrote:
If you don't shoot TF just say so on your profile. More than once I have contacted models who have "depends on assignment' and they reply that they do not do TF.
Now if they didn't want to do TF with me they would quote me rates.
The last few I mentioned a concept, and asked if they were interested, I said nothing about terms...they just replied back....I don't do any TF.
That ended it for me. Had they replied back with 'I like your idea but it doesn't help my profile improve, but if you are interested, here are my rates...'
then perhaps more dialogue could have happened.

So I guess I am just saying, please make your profile accurate. It is starting to feel like bait and switch.


For all the awesome people who keep their profiles up to date...keep being awesome.  smile

How is "I dont do any TF" any different than "Here's my rates." Both are telling you they wont work unpaid with you, just in different wording. Most models here wont offer rates in a reply because a lot of photographers view it as rude to send rates unless explicitly asked. Any time spent reading the forums here will tell a model that much. So what they are doing is giving you the ball so you can either say "Ok, well what are your rates?" Or say "Ok, I can offer you this". Maybe you want to be told exactly why she wont shoot TF and quoted rates, but you should realize you are likely in the minority that prefer that and will rarely see that happen.

Also, putting "paid work only" can scare off potential clients for models for various reasons so yup... a lot of girls keep that "depends on assignment" as it makes them seem more approachable. That and they probably do shoot trades... just with the right people.

Jan 09 13 08:32 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,402
London, England, United Kingdom


Rick Takes Pics wrote:
If you don't shoot TF just say so on your profile. More than once I have contacted models who have "depends on assignment' and they reply that they do not do TF.
Now if they didn't want to do TF with me they would quote me rates.
The last few I mentioned a concept, and asked if they were interested, I said nothing about terms...they just replied back....I don't do any TF.
That ended it for me. Had they replied back with 'I like your idea but it doesn't help my profile improve, but if you are interested, here are my rates...'
then perhaps more dialogue could have happened.

So I guess I am just saying, please make your profile accurate. It is starting to feel like bait and switch.


For all the awesome people who keep their profiles up to date...keep being awesome.  smile

Just because a model says on her profile 'depends on assignment' doesn't mean she does TFP. She could be open to other forms of barter. Or part pay. Its not an exact science.

Plus 'i dont to TFP' might also mean 'you're shit but i want to let you down gently'. In which case she's actually being nice so you should probably lay off.

Jan 09 13 08:40 am  Link  Quote 
Model
a raw muse
Posts: 3,111
Dighton, Massachusetts, US


I put Paid Assignments only but sure do test with the right people to update my book or for fun. I've had people get bent over my having Paid Assignments selected and answering TF casting calls.

Can't please everyone.
Jan 09 13 08:43 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,402
London, England, United Kingdom


indefinite anomaly wrote:
I put Paid Assignments only but sure do test with the right people to update my book or for fun. I've had people get bent over my having Paid Assignments selected and answering TF casting calls.

Can't please everyone.

That's what i do, i dont want to be contacted for TFP because i'm more than capable of finding it myself when i need it. But some people think to get snarky because saying 'paid assignments only' means i NEVER do TFP, i have NEVER done TFP and i think i'm better than everyone else who does TFP, in fact i probably think that NO ONE should ever do TFP, ever. Some people just want to get mad.

Jan 09 13 08:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17,925
Los Angeles, California, US


I have had people say they don't do tf when being contacted for a cover shoot for one of my clients, even though they have depends on assignment. Those people it is a bait and switch. Most of the time, except big jobs, the model is givena $50-$100 honorarium from the magazine but unfortunately sometimes there is no budget and I do what I can.

I find it funny that a model on MM will be rude about not doing the shoot, but agencies will send me really great models for the same job.
Jan 09 13 09:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,804
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Rick Takes Pics wrote:
If you don't shoot TF just say so on your profile. More than once I have contacted models who have "depends on assignment' and they reply that they do not do TF.
Now if they didn't want to do TF with me they would quote me rates.
The last few I mentioned a concept, and asked if they were interested, I said nothing about terms...they just replied back....I don't do any TF.
That ended it for me. Had they replied back with 'I like your idea but it doesn't help my profile improve, but if you are interested, here are my rates...'
then perhaps more dialogue could have happened.

So I guess I am just saying, please make your profile accurate. It is starting to feel like bait and switch.


For all the awesome people who keep their profiles up to date...keep being awesome.  smile

Hate to break it to ya...if it hasn't been done already. "I Don't Do TF" is the biggest c*ckblock on MM. People do that to avoid being inundated with offers from mediocre models, MUA's etc.

We all do TF, if it's with people we can benefit from.

My second fav is the "I'm not on MM very often as I'm busy with work"..but yet their profile indicates that they checked in this morning...and all that follows.

Jan 09 13 09:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,374
Orlando, Florida, US


Nobody reads that stuff anyway.
Jan 09 13 09:20 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Scarlett Renee
Posts: 217
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
Nobody reads that stuff anyway.

LOL! This....

Good Egg is always so honest. smile

Jan 09 13 09:24 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Koryn
Posts: 36,417
Boston, Massachusetts, US


indefinite anomaly wrote:
I put Paid Assignments only but sure do test with the right people to update my book or for fun. I've had people get bent over my having Paid Assignments selected and answering TF casting calls.

Can't please everyone.

yeah, this

Jan 09 13 09:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
Nobody reads that stuff anyway.

+1. And I just let the models contact me. Then I know they like my work and are interested in my specific style and locations...which (usually) develops into a good collaboration.

Jan 09 13 10:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HM-Photography
Posts: 255
Baltimore, Maryland, US


Rick Takes Pics wrote:
Now if they didn't want to do TF with me they would quote me rates.
The last few I mentioned a concept, and asked if they were interested, I said nothing about terms...they just replied back....I don't do any TF.
That ended it for me. Had they replied back with 'I like your idea but it doesn't help my profile improve, but if you are interested, here are my rates...'
then perhaps more dialogue could have happened.

But your profile states "I shoot TF* only. I do not pay"

Seems to me that she read your message then your profile and responded accordingly.

Perhaps not in the most professional of ways as any correspondence can be an opportunity to make a sale, but the point was communicated.

Jan 09 13 10:32 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 2,503
Muncie, Indiana, US


I fail to see how this is bait and switch. They just don't want to do TF with you. They are trying to not make it personal.
Jan 09 13 10:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
OmnyRa
Posts: 1,029
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


I get a little pissy when I pitch an idea to a model to see if she's interested, or just say I'd love to shoot with her sometime, and her reply is, "I don't do TF".  Like yourself, that's the end of effort for me.  Not sure why I find it insulting, but I figure they would at least ask if it's a paying  job instead of thinking I'm looking for a freebie. Maybe that's why it gets on my nerves when they do that- it's like they're accusing me of asking for a handout, and sometimes this is for profiles that clearly state they don't do TF.
Jan 09 13 10:58 am  Link  Quote 
Model
NYMPH
Posts: 619
Oakland, California, US


So it really all comes down to wording? I have it pretty expressly in my profile that I do limited trade, and a list of what I would trade for. Every so often, I get people who actually ask if their work falls into that category. Regardless of whether it does or not, I'm flattered that they read my profile and respond in kind.

But it sounds like what the OP is actually upset about is when the wording isn't completely cohesive. I try to never say, "I don't do TF" anymore, because, in truth, it is a lie, as many here have pointed out - quality trade shoots are part of being a thriving artist. I often tell people 'thanks but no thanks', 'I can't offer any more trades while I'm traveling', or 'your work isn't what I'm looking for in my port right now'. And what I'm gleaming from this thread (and my experience) is that photographers really appreciate the honesty and a thought out answer rather than a generic "I don't do TF".
Jan 09 13 11:15 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Rachel-Elise
Posts: 1,650
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


JadeDRed wrote:

That's what i do, i dont want to be contacted for TFP because i'm more than capable of finding it myself when i need it. But some people think to get snarky because saying 'paid assignments only' means i NEVER do TFP, i have NEVER done TFP and i think i'm better than everyone else who does TFP, in fact i probably think that NO ONE should ever do TFP, ever. Some people just want to get mad.

This EXACTLY. It's so irritating. I have three photographers I will "trade" with (because one is my boyfriend and two others are close friends, and we can all benefit from it). It's not like I'm going to advertise that, though, to get others' hopes up, but they don't need to get their panties in a wad over me asking for pay, either.

Jan 09 13 11:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Nyctiphaes
Posts: 159
Athens, Attikí, Greece


Good Egg Productions wrote:
Nobody reads that stuff anyway.

well this is your opinion. I do read that stuff and if I see paid assignemnts only, I ll never contact a model, unless she specifically mentions in her profile that she tests selectively or whatever. If she does not mention that, then I ll simply will not initiate any contact.
So, if you are testing sometimes, it's good to mention that I think. Just set your requirements for it.

It works the other way around when a model that contacted me has "paid assignments only" written on her port.
Unless shes absolutely gorgeous and I really want to work with her, she ll get the rates I charge, exactly the way she wants to be compensated.
If she has written that she is open to TF, even though very selectively or rarely, then its fine, cause she s being honest.
We all know that everybody trades from time to time.

Its better to leave doors open, than to shut them.

Jan 09 13 12:47 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,098
New York, New York, US


Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but If I'm initiating the contact, it's up to me to mention the anticipated compensation, whether I say "I'm paying $X" or "What would you want to shoot Y?" 

"Depends On Assignment" means to me "I'm willing to consider an offer."  I certainly wouldn't expect a model that expects to negotiate a rate to respond to an open inquiry with an offer to shoot for trade.

At the same time, if I've looked over a model's profile and portfolio and for whatever reason feel that I have an idea that she might find interesting, I have no problem saying up front that the project will be for trade.  If the response is "I don't do trade," then I'm free to continue to negotiate or just say "Thanks for responding," and move on to the next model.  Certainly no reason to be upset.  And equally, there's no reason for a model to be upset with an offer to trade.  We all get (and make) offers that aren't appealing. 

All IMHO, as always.
Jan 09 13 02:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,746
London, England, United Kingdom


Rick Takes Pics wrote:
If you don't shoot TF just say so on your profile. More than once I have contacted models who have "depends on assignment' and they reply that they do not do TF.
Now if they didn't want to do TF with me they would quote me rates.
The last few I mentioned a concept, and asked if they were interested, I said nothing about terms...they just replied back....I don't do any TF.
That ended it for me. Had they replied back with 'I like your idea but it doesn't help my profile improve, but if you are interested, here are my rates...'
then perhaps more dialogue could have happened.

So I guess I am just saying, please make your profile accurate. It is starting to feel like bait and switch.


For all the awesome people who keep their profiles up to date...keep being awesome.  smile

Have you considered they are waiting for your counter offer? All you have established is they wont work with you on this assignment TF.

Not every model will want to work with you, which is normal.

Jan 09 13 03:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Egypt Jordan
Posts: 82
San Antonio, Texas, US


AJScalzitti wrote:
But all serious models trade shoot, it's just been part of the bizz for decades.  It doesn't matter if the model is Coco, they all need to keep their books current and all of them have a desire to create something inspiring; it's just the matter of the right idea.

I do however understand your troubles I just don't see a solution

If a model is as serious as they are about the industry, they should realize that they will now always get thier way. Some people are good, but those can get better.

I mean, they can't expect to be like Gisele, come on now. I know we all want a pay day but some models need to get a bit realistic. Maybe that trade that they declined could help their port and book them for a paying gig.

Jan 09 13 03:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


I think every model profile should say "Depends on Assignment" whether they primarily accept paid shoots or not.

I'm guessing there are really only a small percentage of models who would never consider a trade shoot with the right photographer and the right project.

How many models with "Paid Only" on their profiles would shoot Trade if they were offered a shoot with Mario Testino or Arny Freytag? Or if they were guaranteed a Tear Sheet in a national publication? Very few I'd have to guess.

So, even if a model who states "Depends..." on their profile has only accepted paid assignments, "Depends" is still accurate. I don't see that as a bait-and-switch just because they don't want to shoot Trade with me.
Jan 09 13 03:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


Rick Takes Pics wrote:
If you don't shoot TF just say so on your profile. More than once I have contacted models who have "depends on assignment' and they reply that they do not do TF.

the "depends on assignment" is in direct proportion to what is being presented.  bring something more worthwhile rather than just a tf* for pictures.

Jan 09 13 04:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Roxy Vandiver
Posts: 2,842
Houston, Texas, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
Nobody reads that stuff anyway.

Sad, but mostly true.  When I want to shoot with an MM photographer, I make sure to read their profile in detail.

My profile specifically states that I don't book through MM, because I don't check it EVERY damn day, and that I prefer to be contacted via facebook because I get immediate notifications.

Yet, I still sign on after a week or two and have half a dozen messages from people wanting to shoot.

READ MY PROFILE.  It's not that difficult and any questions you might have will probably be answered if you do.

As for working TF, my profile says "depends on assignment" and I am honest about that.  If you're a kickass photographer and I think collaborating would benefit my portfolio, then I'll definitely shoot TF. 

If I'm not into your work, you're getting messaged back with rates.  Sorry!

Jan 09 13 10:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Isaiah Brink
Posts: 2,045
Charlotte, North Carolina, US


Well, this type of response could be for any number of reasons depending on who's responding. I agree, if your style dosnt help them out, they could respond by saying so and staying their rates for such a project. But I imagine more than once models have done that and gotten a rude response. To that I say it just weeds out the bad eggs. I'd this happens to you again, and they say they don't do trade, ask them if they would do it for pay and what their rates would be for such a project.
Jan 10 13 01:31 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


Anyone who says they don't do TF is lying, so you're probably just getting a polite turndown.
Jan 10 13 02:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Natural Means
Posts: 562
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Roxy Vandiver wrote:

Sad, but mostly true.  When I want to shoot with an MM photographer, I make sure to read their profile in detail.

My profile specifically states that I don't book through MM, because I don't check it EVERY damn day, and that I prefer to be contacted via facebook because I get immediate notifications.

Yet, I still sign on after a week or two and have half a dozen messages from people wanting to shoot.

READ MY PROFILE.  It's not that difficult and any questions you might have will probably be answered if you do.

As for working TF, my profile says "depends on assignment" and I am honest about that.  If you're a kickass photographer and I think collaborating would benefit my portfolio, then I'll definitely shoot TF. 

If I'm not into your work, you're getting messaged back with rates.  Sorry!

Sorry but referring someone from MM to another website for booking or interest makes no sense to me. Then what? Back to MM to check portfolios then back to wherever to say yes then back to MM to exchange examples etc etc etc.

Jan 10 13 04:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,358
Salem, Oregon, US


i know paid models who do trade. even with me.
Jan 10 13 12:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L Bass
Posts: 957
Nacogdoches, Texas, US


My fav is 'No Experience' AND 'paid Assignments Only.' I get a chuckle every time I run across that combination.
Jan 10 13 01:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,358
Salem, Oregon, US


i've seen posts from models who got paid for their first shoot. some guys will pay for look/personality/newness.

L Bass wrote:
My fav is 'No Experience' AND 'paid Assignments Only.' I get a chuckle every time I run across that combination.

Jan 10 13 01:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vector 38
Posts: 8,296
Austin, Texas, US


Rick Takes Pics wrote:
please make your profile accurate

+1

Jan 10 13 01:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


Well thats a dame for ya its like her saying "I annit a Tamata but i do like tomatoes.
Jan 10 13 01:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
angel emily
Posts: 1,020
Boston, Massachusetts, US


L Bass wrote:
My fav is 'No Experience' AND 'paid Assignments Only.' I get a chuckle every time I run across that combination.

My first time modeling was a paid job. 

I had no prior experience or even a real interest in modeling.
I wasn't pursuing it - I was pursued.

For many types of modeling, you don't need "experience", you need a look.

Jan 10 13 01:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,864
Olivet, Michigan, US


Roxy Vandiver wrote:
Sad, but mostly true.  When I want to shoot with an MM photographer, I make sure to read their profile in detail.

My profile specifically states that I don't book through MM, because I don't check it EVERY damn day, and that I prefer to be contacted via facebook because I get immediate notifications.

Yet, I still sign on after a week or two and have half a dozen messages from people wanting to shoot.

READ MY PROFILE.  It's not that difficult and any questions you might have will probably be answered if you do.

As for working TF, my profile says "depends on assignment" and I am honest about that.  If you're a kickass photographer and I think collaborating would benefit my portfolio, then I'll definitely shoot TF. 

If I'm not into your work, you're getting messaged back with rates.  Sorry!
Natural Means wrote:
Sorry but referring someone from MM to another website for booking or interest makes no sense to me. Then what? Back to MM to check portfolios then back to wherever to say yes then back to MM to exchange examples etc etc etc.

Personally, I check portfolios BEFORE I contact someone to shoot, and I do most communication with models on FB anyway.   My browser has this neat feature called "tabs" that lets me have more than one site open at a time.

Jan 10 13 01:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,235
Portland, Oregon, US


Rick Takes Pics wrote:
If you don't shoot TF just say so on your profile. More than once I have contacted models who have "depends on assignment' and they reply that they do not do TF.
Now if they didn't want to do TF with me they would quote me rates.

So I guess I am just saying, please make your profile accurate. It is starting to feel like bait and switch.

Sorry, Rick, but sometimes models are selective on their choice of photographers.  I haven't looked at your profile, but if the model already has similar quality images, she might not want to do TF* with you, but if your images are super-fantastic, she might.  She can't tell until you ask.  Hence, it's impossible for them to say "yes" or "no" regarding TF* on the profile.

Look -- everyone's different.  Every concept is different.  Everything is negotiable.  It is more constructive for you to learn how to deal with that -- I wouldn't expect anyone to change their profile based on this thread.

My advice:  don't let it be a big deal.  Ask.  If you don't like her counteroffer, you have the option to accept, decline, or make a counteroffer of your own.  Or, you can keep looking.  By no means should you take any of this personally.

Jan 10 13 01:44 pm  Link  Quote 
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