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Model
Jojo West
Posts: 972
Silver Spring, Maryland, US


Catnapping wrote:
Or it could even be healthy weight gain, just to point out that option.

Especially if this is someone who you shot when she was a teenager, when women age into their 20's and 30's is perfectly normal to gain weight.

Yes that could also be the case. It's also not necessarily unattractive weight gain to anyone except the OP.

Some people think I'm HUGE, lol, I just tell them to piss off. smile

Jan 09 13 08:22 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,315
London, England, United Kingdom


STASIS wrote:
I've worked with a model who has put on a lot of weight recently.

She has a beautiful face, but she is probably 25 pounds overweight. (huge gut, overflowing love handles, and too big of a bust)

I'd love to cast her for a shoot, but she won't fit the part.
__________

How can I approach this with her without seeming like an insensitive clod?

If she hasn't applied and she hasn't asked for your opinion then keep schtum, its not your business.

Jan 09 13 08:42 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 2,305
Muncie, Indiana, US


STASIS wrote:

This is what happened on our last shoot. Showed up with a completely different body type that when we've worked previously.

She doesn't have a portfolio. She is not a professional or even aspiring model like most of you on ModelMayhem. She is has only done 3 shoots, all with me. But I treat her as a professional, and she acts like a professional.

I'd love to keep working with her and help her develop a book. But not if she doesn't care about her body.

I am stunned you assume she doesn't care about her body. I have had major health issues that have affected my weight. I had a high thyroid and lost too much weight. I have had steroids and have gained weight. None of that meant I didn't care about how I looked. Good grief she could be pregnant even. If I were you I would say nothing unless she asks you about shooting her. Only then would I give any input/advice.

Jan 09 13 10:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
STASIS
Posts: 30
Terre Haute, Indiana, US


She has asked to do more work with me.

Either she loses weight, or she loses work.
Jan 09 13 10:57 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jojo West
Posts: 972
Silver Spring, Maryland, US


STASIS wrote:
She is not a professional or even aspiring model like most of you on ModelMayhem.

I thought she didn't want to be a model?

Side note: so you think models should only fit YOUR idea of "right size" maybe she's happier where she is now, and there are plenty of photographers out there that will gladly work with a curvier model. So you could be decreasing you opp for experience and models.

Jan 09 13 11:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wolfstar Studio
Posts: 861
Cross Roads, Texas, US


sweetcheekscouture wrote:
You don't.

Cast someone else who fits the part.

borat Never, never, NEVER talk to a woman about her weight if you're a guy. It will backfire, especially if you have to tell her she's fat/overweight/whatever. They have a bad habit of getting a complex about it. Just my experience.

Jan 09 13 11:02 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,315
London, England, United Kingdom


STASIS wrote:
She has asked to do more work with me.

Either she loses weight, or she loses work.

Then say 'I don't use llamas of your size."

Jan 09 13 11:56 am  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,493
Los Angeles, California, US


STASIS wrote:
She has asked to do more work with me.

Either she loses weight, or she loses work.

This is easy, then.

Instead of telling her what SHE needs to do, tell her what YOU need.


"I do have a project that I'm working on that's shooting in 6 months. You have a great look for it, but unfortunately I need a size (0/2/4/6/etc) for this specific project."

That way it leaves it open ended and instead of YOU saying, "You should lose weight," it leaves it open for her to say, "I can lose weight" or even possibly, "Oh really? I actually just started a new workout plan and I'm hoping to get to that size even sooner!"

And, if not, she can decline and you guys can shoot together on something when yo're both interested.

Just my advice, anyway.

Jan 09 13 01:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 862
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


STASIS wrote:
How can I approach this with her without seeming like an insensitive clod?

You can't.

Jan 09 13 01:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jean Renard Photography
Posts: 2,018
Los Angeles, California, US


Avoiding the realities of an industry is suicide.
Weight is tricky, fitness for the job is better.

There are two scenarios 1-  The real work place where there is zero latitude:

If the model shows up not in shape to work, she is insulting the client and her profession.  We just fired three models who were not as advertised and gave the agency serious hell.  We ALWAYS see principal players, but secondary talent was booked off comp cards.  The agency got us replacements, those models are toast in LA.

Athletes who are out of shape are fired.  If a model has no respect for the work then she is not fit to model.

And the second scenario, someone you like and think has potential, they need to be told what the requirements of the job are.  They can make up their own mind as to how to proceed. Anything else will hurt and waste the model's time.
Jan 09 13 01:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Avonelle
Posts: 167
Toledo, Ohio, US


K I C K H A M wrote:

This is easy, then.

Instead of telling her what SHE needs to do, tell her what YOU need.


"I do have a project that I'm working on that's shooting in 6 months. You have a great look for it, but unfortunately I need a size (0/2/4/6/etc) for this specific project."

That way it leaves it open ended and instead of YOU saying, "You should lose weight," it leaves it open for her to say, "I can lose weight" or even possibly, "Oh really? I actually just started a new workout plan and I'm hoping to get to that size even sooner!"

And, if not, she can decline and you guys can shoot together on something when yo're both interested.

Just my advice, anyway.

Ths is probably the best advice. If a photographer phrased sent me a message saying that I needed to lose 25 pounds or he would never work with me again, then I would feel absolutely terrible about myself. And I would probably never want to work with that photographer again, and instead search for photographers who valued my look and what I could offer. Which I realize isn't always as easy in commercial photography, but is much more of a viable option in art modeling.

Most women are pretty aware of their weight, so I am sure she realizes that she has gained that 25 pounds. But since you say that she isn't even an aspiring model in a world where critiques are natural and negative comments can be fuel for change... I think your comment could cause more harm than good. She has to want that change for herself, and a message from a single photographer might not be constructive. It could cause some serious offense and pain, and could enhance any negative feelings she might have towards herself, as weight can be such a sensitive subject.

K I C K H A M probably has the best suggestion for phrasing - it doesn't concentrate on any physical negatives, nor makes her feel bad about herself, while still leaving the door open for her to make the change herself.

Any other phrasing would be pretty offensive, in my opinion.

Jan 09 13 06:20 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


Jean Renard Photography wrote:
Avoiding the realities of an industry is suicide.
Weight is tricky, fitness for the job is better.

There are two scenarios 1-  The real work place where there is zero latitude:

If the model shows up not in shape to work, she is insulting the client and her profession.  We just fired three models who were not as advertised and gave the agency serious hell.  We ALWAYS see principal players, but secondary talent was booked off comp cards.  The agency got us replacements, those models are toast in LA.

Athletes who are out of shape are fired.  If a model has no respect for the work then she is not fit to model.

And the second scenario, someone you like and think has potential, they need to be told what the requirements of the job are.  They can make up their own mind as to how to proceed. Anything else will hurt and waste the model's time.

the thing with all of this is that different types of modelling require different shape. some types of modelling don't even require specific shape at all, then you just get hired of you are qualified and your look qoes with the project.

and in the case of the OP we're also not talking about agencywork or the fashion industry right.

the model gained weight, okay. she won't be a fashion model then. but she could be: a hobbyist model, a plus model (depending on other factors), an artmodel, a nude model, an alt model (depending on other factors), ...

just cause she gained 15 pounds doesn't mean she has no respect for the job and will never work again. Maybe the weightgain makes her a perfect fit for a different photographer.

this is mayhem, after all, not the fashion industry.

Jan 10 13 02:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,746
London, England, United Kingdom


STASIS wrote:
She has asked to do more work with me.

Either she loses weight, or she loses work.

Easy, look at casting someone else and if she approaches you again inform her that you're only working with model sizes. Only discuss her size if she brings it up. She will let you know if there is anything she needs to do to fit that size.

Jan 10 13 03:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jean Renard Photography
Posts: 2,018
Los Angeles, California, US


Anna Adrielle wrote:
the thing with all of this is that different types of modelling require different shape. some types of modelling don't even require specific shape at all, then you just get hired of you are qualified and your look qoes with the project.

and in the case of the OP we're also not talking about agencywork or the fashion industry right.

the model gained weight, okay. she won't be a fashion model then. but she could be: a hobbyist model, a plus model (depending on other factors), an artmodel, a nude model, an alt model (depending on other factors), ...

just cause she gained 15 pounds doesn't mean she has no respect for the job and will never work again. Maybe the weightgain makes her a perfect fit for a different photographer.

this is mayhem, after all, not the fashion industry.

Please note I said "Fit for the job".  I could not care less what a model chooses to do with her career strategy.  If a model shows up not as advertised, that could be with changed hair color, with a deep tan or tan lines or at a different weight than booked, she is not respecting the job, she will get fired and will be toast in my book and perhaps more importantly in the eyes of casting directors who remember that sort of thing.
Now as to if you should tell them anything as you pass them by?
I have no need to force my opinion on them or justify my hiring practices, but if they ask, then they need to know.

MM is a mixed bag, I find a LOT of models who get patronized to death rather than be given the real deal and end up wasting a lot of time.  While most talent here might be into having fun, a significant % do want to make real money at this and would do the work needed to make it into the commercial/acting world.  I know that world, I know what it takes to make it in that world, and I comment from that perspective for those few that want to listen.

Nevertheless, if you sell yourself as something then you'd better be that thing no matter what world you live in.

Jan 10 13 11:55 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Virginia P
Posts: 469
Los Angeles, California, US


Do you even need to say anything? Perhaps a simple "thank you, but we've gone with someone else" will suffice. Also, most of the time, if you don't book a gig, you don't hear from the photographer or company as to why.
Jan 10 13 12:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MB Jen B
Posts: 2,849
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


New Art Photo wrote:
To paraphrase a female friend: 'NEVER EVER -EVER- EVER SAY ANYTHING  NEGATIVE TO A GIRL ABOUT HER PHYSICAL APPEARANCE.

Bottom Line: if she doesn't fit what you need find someone else.

As I understand it, women feel about their physical appearance the way men feel about their " Personal Endowment" . Unless it's praise-- Don't Even Go There. Nothing good can come from it.

(PS I'm the guy who in his early days would advise girls to get nose jobs...what can I say? I thought it would be helpful.

++ and +++

Jan 11 13 10:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bob Helm Photography
Posts: 18,101
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US


sweetcheekscouture wrote:

You don't.

Cast someone else who fits the part. It's not your job to educate the world.

If she approached you it would be different but you don't need to approach her. Pretty sure she knows what she looks like.

In my humble opinion.

+1

Jan 12 13 07:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 17,856
Albany, New York, US


STASIS wrote:
How can I approach this with her without seeming like an insensitive clod?

Unless she specifically asks...don't!

The other option is to intentionally create a project that meets her current look & bodytype.

Jan 12 13 09:10 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Raven-Lily
Posts: 77
Eastbourne, England, United Kingdom


you say she has a pretty face

why not offer her Beauty/Head shots?
Jan 12 13 11:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
STASIS
Posts: 30
Terre Haute, Indiana, US


Raven-Lily wrote:
you say she has a pretty face

why not offer her Beauty/Head shots?

That's what we've done so far, Beauty work.

But it would be great if she could do fashion & commercial shoots that we have, I'd love to cast her. She has a ton of potential...good height, great face.

Jan 12 13 06:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Carter
Posts: 7,631
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


Having worked with, and knowing a few models from Terre Haute, I'm kind of curious who it is now. Because I know models who have had life issues whose weight has fluctuated.

But morbid curiosity aside, you recast. Like everyone said. If she doesn't fit the part, she doesn't fit the part, and while it happens in the industry, you are not an agent. It's not your place to tell someone what they should or shouldn't do. If it's not affecting her health, then it would just be one person's opinion.

Unless I misread your responses.
Jan 12 13 06:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
STASIS
Posts: 30
Terre Haute, Indiana, US


I met with the model on Saturday and it went better than expected. smile

She had no problem with the size requirements and is really excited about the project and the chance to work on a fashion shoot. She had already joined a local gym as part of her New Years resolution to tone-up.

She actually laughed at me for how coy I was trying to be, and called me out for being scared to be honest with her.

Thanks for all the advice.
Jan 13 13 03:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
STASIS
Posts: 30
Terre Haute, Indiana, US


Mnemosyne Photography wrote:
Having worked with, and knowing a few models from Terre Haute, I'm kind of curious who it is now. Because I know models who have had life issues whose weight has fluctuated.

She's not on modelmayhem, it's no one you would know. And what person doesn't have life issues and fluctuating weight?

We work in an industry where requirements like these are common. This is work, not personal. We're not talking about a girlfriend or a female colleague. We're talking about communicating requirements (while being sensitive & respectful) in a professional context.

Some people take it personally. I get that, duh. That's why I started this thread, to lessen the chance it's taken personally and to be sensitive.

But it's a case-by-case basis whether someone can handle the truth. This model could handle the truth.

Jan 13 13 03:09 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Saedcantas
Posts: 445
Saint Saviour, Saint Saviour, United Kingdom


Make sure you update us with the shots when it all goes ahead!
Jan 13 13 04:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Kirk
Posts: 4,407
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada


STASIS wrote:
She's not on modelmayhem, it's no one you would know. And what person doesn't have life issues and fluctuating weight?

We work in an industry where requirements like these are common. This is work, not personal. We're not talking about a girlfriend or a female colleague. We're talking about communicating requirements (while being sensitive & respectful) in a professional context.

Some people take it personally. I get that, duh. That's why I started this thread, to lessen the chance it's taken personally and to be sensitive.

But it's a case-by-case basis whether someone can handle the truth. This model could handle the truth.

I wouldn't close the book on this one.  She has already joined a gym to lose some weight, so that's good (presumably).   She intends to lose some weight.  It is possible that she will lose the weight and fit the job, but I would guess it is more likely that she won't.  The conversation in 6 months when she has only lossed 15 of those 25 pounds may not be quite so easy.

Jan 13 13 05:13 am  Link  Quote 
Model
- Aina -
Posts: 731
Redlands, California, US


Gloria Budiman wrote:
Learn from my mistake, don't mention anything regarding her body.

"Sorry, you're not what I'm looking for for this project".

Period.

If she asked for the reason, feel free to be more verbose.

Tips: Mentioning "no offense" does not work. If someone is insecure enough, no matter what they'll take the offense.

I would opt for this approach. I'm not overweight, and I occasionally get turned down for someone thinner. I don't take it personally.  It happens. I noticed that you WOULD want to shoot with her. I would say that you want to shoot with her skills and talents, but that the image in your head requires a model with these rough measurements. Mentioning that you need certain measurements saves the concept of her weight.

Jan 13 13 08:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dragos Codita
Posts: 82
Bucharest, Bucharest, Romania


This depends on your needs.
If you need it now, then you move on.
If you needed some time in the future, it's up to you if you wait or not, or if you will ever get it at all.
Jan 13 13 08:37 am  Link  Quote 
Model
EmGii
Posts: 151
Rancho Cucamonga, California, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
Yes, that's what we're saying.

If you can use her, use her. If you can't, don't.

You aren't her agency. You aren't her mom.

It is not your place to tell someone to lose weight.

this^^

Jan 14 13 11:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HO Photo
Posts: 515
Los Angeles, California, US


STASIS wrote:
I've worked with a model who has put on a lot of weight recently.

She has a beautiful face, but she is probably 25 pounds overweight. (huge gut, overflowing love handles, and too big of a bust)

I'd love to cast her for a shoot, but she won't fit the part.
__________

How can I approach this with her without seeming like an insensitive clod?

You can't, because you *ARE* an insensitive clod. What is there to approach her about? Don't cast her.

I think I'm missing the part where it's your responsibility to point out that she gained weight, or to even care that she has.

Jan 15 13 12:00 pm  Link  Quote 
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