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Photographer
Christopher Carter
Posts: 7,657
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


I got nude once for an 18+ shoot. They were polaroids even, so they were super duper classy and artsy too.
Jan 08 13 11:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,376
San Diego, California, US


Because a lot of times when two artists collaborate, the results are worth a lot more than $150 to both of them. (I mean as in a showpiece; not in a commercial sense.)
Jan 08 13 11:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,071
Alexandria, Virginia, US


just think of all of those clothes and items you do not have to pack and carry

all of those blank looks from photographers who see your clothes and undies all spread out and have no clue what to ask you to wear

all that time spent shrugging in and out of the stuff

all the time spent sorting and cleaning and acquiring new stuff

models ought to *pay* us to shoot naked.....   wink
Jan 09 13 12:02 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,242
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Fotografica Gregor wrote:
just think of all of those clothes and items you do not have to pack and carry

all of those blank looks from photographers who see your clothes and undies all spread out and have no clue what to ask you to wear

all that time spent shrugging in and out of the stuff

all the time spent sorting and cleaning and acquiring new stuff

models ought to *pay* us to shoot naked.....   wink

Whats the effort I put into my wardrobe got to do with you guys keepin yer clothes on? wink

Jan 09 13 12:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AgX
Posts: 1,222
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.
Tim Little Photography wrote:
Are you sure TFP is running away business? Might there be other issues or perceptions that might cause photographers to work with someone else?

{snicker}

Jan 09 13 12:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eros Fine Art Photo
Posts: 2,573
Torrance, California, US


Some of us just like to create art.  Luckily there are models out there who feel the same way and get a deeper sense of satisfaction by being part of the creative process. 

Money (or getting paid for taking photos) is great.  But why pass up an opportunity to create something beautiful with a talented photographer, even if he/she can't pay you?  At the very least, you'll get new images in your portfolio.  In the ideal situation, you'll be part of an amazing work of art that will end up in a famous museum or gallery.  I know that one day I'll die.  But hopefully my art will live on for years after me. 

I have a great appreciation for all the models I've shot with and who have helped me create the images I have in my portfolio today.  Every one of them was from TF shoots.
Jan 09 13 12:49 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


Because just being naked does not automagically qualify one to be paid, you have to have the portfolio to show that you can pose (which is really difficult naked, you gotta control all your bits) and that you'll be helpful to someone else's project or portfolio.

It's a genre just like anything else, and since more nude or adult themed stuff is primarily done around the internet (instead of fashion, for which it is much less important to have a good MM portfolio, and it's more important to be represented), TF with great photographers is more of a requirement for nude or adult shoots.

Porn, however, no one should be doing TF, IMO.
Jan 09 13 12:52 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Scarlett Renee
Posts: 217
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Mnemosyne Photography wrote:
I got nude once for an 18+ shoot. They were polaroids even, so they were super duper classy and artsy too.

Ooo were they in black and white too? tongue

Jan 09 13 12:56 am  Link  Quote 
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Model
Damianne
Posts: 15,973
Austin, Texas, US


Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
Some of us just like to create art.  Luckily there are llamas out there who feel the same way and get a deeper sense of satisfaction by being part of the creative process. 

Money (or getting paid for taking photos) is great.  But why pass up an opportunity to create something beautiful with a talented photographer, even if he/she can't pay you?  At the very least, you'll get new images in your portfolio.  In the ideal situation, you'll be part of an amazing work of art that will end up in a famous museum or gallery.  I know that one day I'll die.  But hopefully my art will live on for years after me. 

I have a great appreciation for all the llamas I've shot with and who have helped me create the images I have in my portfolio today.  Every one of them was from TF shoots.

You're so cute.
*hug*

I, personally, did not shoot with you out of a joy of creating art, that was just an awesome bonus.
However, I shot with you because you're really good and that makes me MONAY YAYYYYY moneymoneymoneymoney. *does the money dance*

Jan 09 13 12:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Carter
Posts: 7,657
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


Scarlett Renee wrote:

Ooo were they in black and white too? tongue

More of a sepia tone.

Jan 09 13 01:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
L Bass
Posts: 956
Nacogdoches, Texas, US


MyrnaByrna wrote:
p.s. gosh your profile is pretty harsh...ouch!!

^^^ +1000 ^^^

I can't comment... this isn't the critique forum.

Jan 09 13 01:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sophistocles
Posts: 21,320
Seattle, Washington, US


Mnemosyne Photography wrote:

More of a sepia tone.

You should have a doctor look at that.

Models shoot trade nudes with me because I refuse to charge. I'm odd that way.

Jan 09 13 01:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ali Choudhry Photo
Posts: 176
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


So you're miffed that you're not getting work?

That is no one's fault really, but your own.

Personally I wouldn't work with you.
Jan 09 13 01:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ali Choudhry Photo
Posts: 176
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


MyrnaByrna wrote:
p.s. gosh your profile is pretty harsh...ouch!!
L Bass wrote:
^^^ +1000 ^^^

I can't comment... this isn't the critique forum.

This.

Jan 09 13 01:32 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Miroslava Svoboda
Posts: 555
Seattle, Washington, US


Fotografica Gregor wrote:
just think of all of those clothes and items you do not have to pack and carry

all of those blank looks from photographers who see your clothes and undies all spread out and have no clue what to ask you to wear

all that time spent shrugging in and out of the stuff

all the time spent sorting and cleaning and acquiring new stuff

models ought to *pay* us to shoot naked.....   wink

I happen to like doing all that tongue

Jan 09 13 01:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hugh Alison
Posts: 2,108
Aberystwyth, Wales, United Kingdom


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
This is for the models.
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

Shooting TF with carefully selected photographers (or even paying them) to continue to improve your portfolio is a way of investing in your career as a model.

If all you are marketing is nudity, then there will always be someone newer and younger coming along to take your place.

Jan 09 13 02:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mickle Design Werks
Posts: 5,949
Washington, District of Columbia, US


This is always the old saw: newbies and discounters are under cutting the ability for the seasoned vets and more skilled people to get work.

The problem isn't the competition or available substitutes for what a Model does but convincing people that you are fee worthy and worth taking the risk that you can produce what they need. In other words, it's not a competition problem, it's a marketing problem.

Doing TF* shoots is one way of many ways to help solve this marketing problem.

So, how does TF* shoots help you with your marketing?

1. Networking
This is the best reason for doing TF* shoots. Being able to work with other talented individuals to produce great content that we all can use is the ideal that we all want. It's more likely to happen when you are doing TF* then when doing just paid.

2. Social Proof
People need to see that you are capable of doing what you are asked to be paid for doing or want to shoot. If all you are doing are Model-Paid shoots (Model is getting paid), you may or may not get images from that work and the quality and content of the images may not be what you want to use to sell yourself.

3. Artistic Freedom
With TF* shoot you are in more of a position to ask for sets that you specifically need or aspire to shoot whereas if you are getting paid, that choice ends at the acceptance of the offer. If you are getting paid, you do as instructed to produce what they are paying for.

4. Quality Content
With TF*, ideally you are getting images at the quality level you want.

5. Negotiation Leverage
This reason is the most underrated. When negotiating rates, a Photographer is more likely to want to pay a Model if there are images in a Model's portfolio that show that she can shoot with better Photographers than they are. Having quality images in a portfolio is the best negotiating tool a Model has because it supports that the Model is worth the investment. The people that want to pay for your services need to believe that you are worth the investment of their time, money and resources and if you can't prove that then you need something else that's more compelling for them, which is another reason for a Model doing nude TF* shoots.

6. Experience
Yes, this is obvious but doing TF* shoots does allow you to gain more experience, which in turn allows you to market yourself as such.

So, to answer the OP's original question, doing nude TF* work (like a non-nude TF* shoot) is an investment in marketing. In order to get images that a Model wants or needs the only negotiating leverage that they have with a particular Photographer is their willingness to do nude work and barter that for the work that they want from them.

Jan 09 13 02:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eros Fine Art Photo
Posts: 2,573
Torrance, California, US


Damianne wrote:
Because just being naked does not automagically qualify one to be paid, you have to have the portfolio to show that you can pose (which is really difficult naked, you gotta control all your bits) and that you'll be helpful to someone else's project or portfolio.

It's a genre just like anything else, and since more nude or adult themed stuff is primarily done around the internet (instead of fashion, for which it is much less important to have a good MM portfolio, and it's more important to be represented), TF with great photographers is more of a requirement for nude or adult shoots.

Porn, however, no one should be doing TF, IMO.

Words of wisdom from one of the best models I've ever shot with.  smile

Jan 09 13 02:15 am  Link  Quote 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 4,018
Los Angeles, California, US


My TFPing of nudes with select, super talented photographers has made me way more money than I would ever make building my portfolio from paid work gigs only.
Jan 09 13 02:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


How else are you going to get images for your port?

Pay-shoots don't always garner the model any images at all let alone ones that are useful to her - unless the photographer is feeling generous - it's by no means a given.
Jan 09 13 02:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 864
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.

Are you sure that's the only reason why you're finding it hard to get paid work? There could be a millions reasons for that - the "competition" is only one of them.

Jan 09 13 02:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeff Fiore
Posts: 9,220
Pelham, New York, US


Models complaining about models doing nude TFP because it it prevents them from getting paid work. Photographers complaining about photographers shooting TFP because it prevents them from getting paid work.

If a photographer or model doesn't have work in their port that exceeds what people can get for TFP, why would anyone pay them?

The ability to get naked to make money is not enough, all the good freelance models work hard at their business and shot a lot of TFP to build a stellar port.
Jan 09 13 02:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TomFRohwer
Posts: 618
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

For fame? For fun? For experience? For their portfolio? For networking?

Jan 09 13 03:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TomFRohwer
Posts: 618
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.

Photographers by the way call this "Fotolia effect"...

Jan 09 13 03:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeff Fiore
Posts: 9,220
Pelham, New York, US


OP, if you really want an honest answer, post on the critique form.
Jan 09 13 03:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ron Casas Photography
Posts: 813
Lexington, South Carolina, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:

I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.

Welcome to my world. With so many photographers shooting for free.... It is hard for me to get paid...

Jan 09 13 03:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jason Haven
Posts: 38,290
Washington, District of Columbia, US


Personally, it's my cookies. Models do crazy things for my cookies.
Jan 09 13 04:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24,315
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


the quality of photographer you work with, is usually inversely proportionate to the amount of cash you receive from them..

in other words, the better the photographer is, the least likely he needs to pay anyone for nudes.

the less skilled/popular photographers, that don't have a list of willing trade models, usually have to pay models..

so if you are getting paid for nudes, they are probably not the images you want to exhibit.

a generalization, i know..but fairly accurate.

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png
Jan 09 13 04:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
afplcc
Posts: 5,989
Fairfax, Virginia, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
This is for the models.
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

I just did a shoot last night with a very experienced and very capable model (it was nude) with a very significant and excellent portfolio.  During one of our breaks, she laughed at models who say "no TFP" saying  (and these are paraphrases)
--some need to upgrade their portfolio
--some have gone through changes (pregnancy, tattoo, haircut, tan, scar, ant significant weight gain or loss) and need new photos accurately showing what they look like.

Additionally, I've shot with models who wanted trades for various reasons.  I booked a model, a second one wanted to also shoot that model and offered "I'll pose for you if I can show up as a second shooter."

I've had models do TF b/c they didn't have experience shooting with other women and wanted to pose with the model I was working with.

I've had models do TF b/c they wanted to do a waterfall shoot or loved the space or concept I had pitched.

Some models want to work with a specific photographer and will do so without getting paid cash in order to have that opportunity.

You can just as easily ask "why do so many photographers shoot TF?" and pretty much the same answers apply.

Ed

Jan 09 13 04:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
afplcc
Posts: 5,989
Fairfax, Virginia, US


ASYLUM - Photo wrote:
Personally, it's my cookies. Models do crazy things for my cookies.

I've heard that.  Hell--I'll do crazy things for good cookies.

Ed

Jan 09 13 04:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 864
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


ASYLUM - Photo wrote:
Personally, it's my cookies. llamas do crazy things for my cookies.

What do you lace them with?

Jan 09 13 04:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8,841
Delphos, Ohio, US


Because demanding pay without the commiserate experience often makes a model sound like a prostitute. Sometimes even the established "pros" sound kinda iffy with their laundry list approach to price quoting.

Around the world with a twist is $200/hour...

*sigh*

Anyway, people work trade for nudes because they want to improve their ports with a new and/or high quality style. Some just like being naked. smile
Jan 09 13 04:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,071
Alexandria, Virginia, US


Laura UnBound wrote:

Whats the effort I put into my wardrobe got to do with you guys keepin yer clothes on? wink

I don't know about the other guys, but if you want me to shoot naked, you gotta sign a liability release.... tongue

Jan 09 13 04:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,071
Alexandria, Virginia, US


Miroslava Svoboda wrote:

I happen to like doing all that tongue

Yeah - me too -  that's why I shoot fashion - but for those who prefer to travel light, I offer my services for "free"  tongue

Jan 09 13 04:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SME
Posts: 20,912
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


One of the models I've worked with periodically over the years is an incredibly in-demand nude model.  As far as I can tell, she has more paid work available than she has time to take advantage of.  She still collaborates with me, though, because aside from my sunny disposition and witty banter, she says that she appreciates that I do things with the photographs I take.  She says she likes knowing that the odds are good that she'll be exhibited or published or added to a permanent collection as a result of modeling for me.
Jan 09 13 04:43 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
MainePaintah
Posts: 1,713
Saco, Maine, US


Models TFP with me (occasionally) because they receive an original drawing and a pastel figure painting of themselves for their time spent modeling for me.

Some models like art, and this gives them something different than just more photos for their port.
Jan 09 13 04:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4,344
Asheville, North Carolina, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:

I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.

Other women are doing for "free" what you are charging for and you would be pleased if they would stop this so you can maintain your market value?

I don't see it happening.

Jan 09 13 07:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Woodson Photography
Posts: 2,644
Savannah, Georgia, US


Some of us just don't pay models.  Simple as that.

And....  I don't think it's the TF Models that are costing you business.  I think it has more to do with the very negative tone of your profile.

I've read your entire profile.  I would suspect that many photographers (yes, the ones who pay) would probably stop at the first line....
Jan 09 13 07:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4,741
Houston, Texas, US


The Bigger Picture....

The specifics change but the OP is running up against what most business do, a changing and/or saturated market.

Many photographers have a similar complaint about being under-priced or newbie shooters doing offering free services, for the experience.   

Photographers need to find clients that are willing to pay for their specific services and see credible value in them. It takes reassessing their market and creating a niche for themselves.  Very tough stuff to do in most cases.

Modeling has the added issue of the model getting older and their clientele may want younger looking models.   That's when their market changes. Things like that are beyond our control. 

If that's the case, the OP may need to either reinvent herself and market accordingly.   Identify people who are willing to pay us for what she has to offer, her look, her experience.   I don't know how large the market is, but that's an issue too. 

I find that established business can become complacent in their attitude to their work and clients.    They can become less service oriented, less motivated and take their clients and their business for granted.  Especially,  if they haven't had the need to do otherwise.   

It's sad because with some insight and reinvention those businesses could survive if not thrive.

These are just my observations that may relate to the OP's situation. But I've seen very similar comments relate to many businesses of all sizes and industries.
Jan 09 13 07:40 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,397
London, England, United Kingdom


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
This is for the models.
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

One of the less popular answers but, sometimes because no one will pay them to.

Jan 09 13 08:03 am  Link  Quote 
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