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Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,316
London, England, United Kingdom


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
This is for the models.
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

One of the less popular answers but, sometimes because no one will pay them to.

Jan 09 13 08:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hero Foto
Posts: 878
Phoenix, Arizona, US


edit - removed critique ... my bad
Jan 09 13 08:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FiveOne November
Posts: 169
Rochester, New York, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
Whats the effort I put into my wardrobe got to do with you guys keepin yer clothes on? wink

big_smile

Jan 09 13 08:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Commercial Works Photo
Posts: 243
Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
This is for the models.
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

Counter question:

Why do so many new models with no experience want to be paid to shoot when by all indications, the only pose they know is duckface?

Also, SweetGirlyGirl wrote:

"I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work."

You know I have the same problem but on the other side of the camera.  So many people go out and buy a camera and then call themselves photographers that I found it too dificult to make money shooting models part time.  Now I would rather shoot TF than be pissed off that I am making so little money.  At least I get to shoot when the models shows up.

Jan 09 13 08:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KA Style
Posts: 1,549
Syracuse, New York, US


Some just like to do 18+ and show it all over the net.. Its fun for them or some self esteem thing, they want attention..
Jan 09 13 08:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FiveOne November
Posts: 169
Rochester, New York, US


intense_puppy wrote:
What do you lace them with?

The cookies are only in lace when it's an implied shoot... big_smile

Jan 09 13 08:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
the quality of photographer you work with, is usually inversely proportionate to the amount of cash you receive from them..

in other words, the better the photographer is, the least likely he needs to pay anyone for nudes.

the less skilled/popular photographers, that don't have a list of willing trade models, usually have to pay models..

so if you are getting paid for nudes, they are probably not the images you want to exhibit.

a generalization, i know..but fairly accurate.

Bingo! Exactly this...word for word.

Jan 09 13 08:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Do you really think it's other models doing TF* that is decreasing your chances of getting paid work? I just read your profile and without getting into a Critique, I'll just say, sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

Yikes.
Jan 09 13 08:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hero Foto
Posts: 878
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Commercial Works Photo wrote:
Counter question:

Why do so many new models with no experience want to be paid to shoot when by all indications, the only pose they know is duckface?

ROFLMFAO ...

Jan 09 13 08:35 am  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
Chain Reaction
Posts: 529
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

Because they think I'm cute?

Jan 09 13 08:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,549
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.

The answer to your question is the identical answer to the question posed by photographers who say the exact same thing when they complain they can't compete against the freebie photographers or the $300 Craigslist wedding shooters. It comes down to four factors:

1. Your market. Honolulu is a different market for nude work than Los Angeles, or Las Vegas, or New York. It's also a different market than Louisville, Kentucky as well. You need to adjust to your market.

2. The value of the work you provide must be of higher value than the work provided by your competition. This is a very difficult thing for many artists to swallow, at times.

3. You may or may not be marketing this value correctly. What does your website look like? What does your marketable portfolio look like? What do your business cards look like? What do you do to get the word out to people who would pay you that they need to pay you for your work?

4. Sales. Getting the fish on the hook is one thing, getting it into the boat is another. Once someone shows interest in booking you, what do you do as far as negotiating a sale?

Once you can truthfully answer these questions on your own in great detail, then your issue becomes more easily answerable.

Jan 09 13 08:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Carter
Posts: 7,633
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:

I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.

Sorry. The trade/free mentality has been going on for longer than you've been around. And maybe you were getting paid, but you weren't making bank. This is not a new thing. I have to agree with whoever said that it's not the freebies that are hurting you. There's something else.

Jan 09 13 08:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LcD
Posts: 27
Astoria, New York, US


where are these 18+ TFP models you speak of?

I think unicorns are more common! ( ;
Jan 09 13 08:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Skydancer Photos
Posts: 21,904
Santa Cruz, California, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:
the quality of photographer you work with, is usually inversely proportionate to the amount of cash you receive from them..

in other words, the better the photographer is, the least likely he needs to pay anyone for nudes.

the less skilled/popular photographers, that don't have a list of willing trade llamas, usually have to pay llamas..

so if you are getting paid for nudes, they are probably not the images you want to exhibit.

a generalization, i know..but fairly accurate.

That may or may not be. But on MM, and in the age of Internet llamaing, it's really irrelevant to the issue. There are lots of high-quality professional traveling llamas, published, with stunning portfolios, who make a very good living shooting nudes and other such images for pay. One of my friends, very well known here, highly regarded, with tons of publication credits and awards, affectionately calls her East Coast home that she bought via llamaing income "The house that GWCs built."

In other words, you can actually do both... shoot nudes for pay, and shoot stunning images with great photographers.

smile

Jan 09 13 08:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lars R Peterson
Posts: 1,069
Seattle, Washington, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:

I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.

It might not be the competition... it might be the product you are offering.
Some folks are more interested in young, fresh new nude models, rather than those with years and years of experience... and age. Are you certain that the reason you're not getting work is because the others are doing it for free?
I know plenty of younger girls that are getting paid fine for their nude work.

smile

Jan 09 13 08:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
thePhotosmith
Posts: 424
Durham, North Carolina, US


For some people, making art is more important than making money.
Jan 09 13 09:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
salvatori.
Posts: 3,709
State College, Pennsylvania, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
This is for the models.
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

So you automatically think that a woman deserves to be paid simply because she's naked?

And for me, a model's attitude is more important that anything else - like to work with people who aren't so pissed off...

O_o

Jan 09 13 09:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photodorset
Posts: 845
Bournemouth, England, United Kingdom


Firstly, there's the obvious, in that why is nude different from any other shoot?

Secondly, if a llama wants me to hand over cash then I better know what I'm paying for up front. In other words if I want to find a llama with natural breasts, unshaved and no tattoos then I'd like to see if she can fit the bill before I book her. I'd also like to make sure that she understands what 'nude' means. This means she needs some examples on her port.

Finally, some girls love llamaling for the fun of it and do it for the occasional extra cash. If you love something you will do it for free, why not. You get to meet nice people (well I'm nice) and get a thrill from running around in a public place without clothes.
Jan 09 13 09:12 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
Two Pears Studio
Posts: 3,315
Wilmington, Delaware, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:

I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.

a free market is often the most pure or so the theory States.

Jan 09 13 09:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
This is for the models.
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

I can answer that, because lots of them do them with me smile

The answer is: because they want/need/desire the pictures for their portfolios and because those images will help them to get more paid work.





Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jan 09 13 09:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TKPhotos
Posts: 195
Palatine, Illinois, US


LcD wrote:
where are these 18+ TFP models you speak of?

I think unicorns are more common! ( ;

^This

Jan 09 13 09:36 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,618
San Francisco, California, US


KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
The specifics change but the OP is running up against what most business do, a changing and/or saturated market.

There have been a lot of good answers here, but this, to me is the most on-point.  The Internet is changing.  Five years ago, there were throngs of new photographers flocking to the Internet for a chance to shoot a model nude.  To some degree, photographing nudes was the new "strip club."  Certainly, there were a lot of guys that were serious, but a lot of them were in it for the wrong reason.

There are still plenty of guys in it for the wrong reason, but the net has thinned down to a lot more photographers who are serious. We see it on MM.  The forums today are not what they were five years ago. 

There is a truism, photography and strip clubs are not the same thing.  You take pictures for a different reason and a lot of the guys get bored.  Which leaves us with a much greater percentage of serious photographers.  The truth though, is for most here, photography doesn't pay the bills, making it difficult to pay models.

On the other hand, there are girls who model because they love it, and the money isn't the main thing.   You have both ends of the market tugging at each other.  There is also the networking.  Some girls will shoot, just to keep shooting to keep their name out there.  It doesn't matter to them if it is nude because they do nudes.

The bottom line is that was then, this is now.  I think it is harder for a nude model to make a living today than it was five years ago.  It is as simple as that.  Some girls are hugely successful and others are not.

Things will change yet again.

Jan 09 13 09:42 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Scarlett Renee
Posts: 217
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


My first nudes are going to be TF, because the photographer is both a friend and a-f$cking-mazing... and we have plans for them... tongue tongue tongue

I would never shoot nudes with a photographer who was not so good. Regardless of pay. For me that's something that needs to be handled with care, because any nudes I am going to do in the future are works that I want to take pride in, not regret. And I refuse to look like shit in nude photos. The only person who gets the privilege of seeing me naked and looking gross in bad lighting is the boyfriend. And as stated previously, sometimes the only way to get paid to be naked in front of the cameras of people who know what they are doing is to either shoot them TF or pay for them with someone who can give you quality photos to show potential clients.
Jan 09 13 09:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LcD
Posts: 27
Astoria, New York, US


I do agree with a lot of the comments that say some llamas will shoot TFP sans clothing if the photographer is brilliant.

If they are doing a paid shoot with a GWC/Hack, the images might be unusable but at least they got paid.

I hope I can be that photographer who when llamas see my work, there clothes just fall right off! ( ;
Jan 09 13 09:46 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Koryn
Posts: 35,790
Boston, Massachusetts, US


You will get better photos, from more experienced photographers, if you offer trade nude sessions -- at least at the beginning.

A lot of those factors are subject to change, after you have been shooting for awhile, have a good reputation and references.
Jan 09 13 09:47 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,925
New York, New York, US


Not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, but a lot of times just for the fun of it.

Also, in many ways, a good nude shot (and here I'm referring to a good nude shot) frequently requires more actual skill on the model's part than a similar clothed shot.  When you're working with less, you have to be able to do more with it.  Therefore there is a greater need to practice, practice, practice and when that's the goal, it helps to have less of the pressure that posing with a goal in mind of satisfying the vision of a third party client can produce.

FWIW, all the nudes in my portfolios were TFCD.

All IMHO, as always.
Jan 09 13 09:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Broughton
Posts: 2,172
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


reasons to get naked for a photographer:
1. money
2. ...

some models' lists are just longer than yours.
Jan 09 13 10:12 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jordan Bunniie
Posts: 1,624
Los Angeles, California, US


I love shooting TF With photographers whose work I find exceptional and will benefit me somehow. 
Nude, clothed or just the face, is irrelevant to me.
I will continue shooting TF as long as these talented people still want to shoot me.
Jan 09 13 11:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotoSeven
Posts: 1,184
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


MelissaAnn  wrote:

Maybe time to do some TF yourself, and increase the quality of your port.  (I haven't looked at your port, but even experienced nude models will often TF with exceptional photographers).

I get paid to shoot nudes too, but it's the TF that always increases the value of my port.....and then I get even more paid offers.

If I never did nude TF, my port would not be nearly as good.

TF is not working for free, it really pays off (if you choose to do it with the right photographers).  You just have to take a longer term view of things.  wink

THIS...

Jan 09 13 11:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPRINGHEEL
Posts: 38,021
Gibraltar, Michigan, US


What an adorable thread
Jan 09 13 11:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 17,857
Albany, New York, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.

Or maybe you haven't given people a compelling reason to hire you over all those other models.

Pretty faces & hot bods are a dime a dozen. Fresh & new when they first hit the scene but are yesterday's news the longer they are around.

How have you set yourself apart from them? Have you learned or incorporated any hidden talents (do you act, dance, or involved in the arts in some way beyond modeling)? Do you travel? Are you willing to provide content that those other models won't? Do you project a positive attitude & get people who have already worked w/ you talking to other people w/ whom you haven't?

Jan 09 13 11:30 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Koryn
Posts: 35,790
Boston, Massachusetts, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.

I used nude modeling as a significant income source for several years, and as my only income sources for certain periods of time, and never found it THAT difficult to find work. When I was serious, networking and hustling, and being open-minded about what I was willing to accept for gigs, money would always come to me.

The market ebbs and flows of its own accord. People shooting "for free" will NOT negatively influence your own business, if you are marketing yourself well.

Jan 09 13 11:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotoSeven
Posts: 1,184
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


I haven't looked at your pictures.

Maybe the photographers aren't impressed with the nude photos in your portfolio, be it your fault or the paying photographers fault.

With a premium account, you prob. have wayyy more images than you need, so another solution could be to seriously edit your portfolio down to the strongest images and bite the bullet and do TF or God forbid, pay a stellar photographer.
Jan 09 13 11:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,249
Atlanta, Georgia, US


To me models compensation, whatever that may be, has nothing to do with wardrobe or lack of.
Jan 09 13 11:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,425
Los Angeles, California, US


I shoot models TF because for the most part they can't afford my rates




I haven't paid a model since 1996 and do about 2-3 nude shoots per week
Jan 09 13 11:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vector One Photography
Posts: 2,605
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


Exposure, experience, and/or for good pictures...that's why.
Jan 09 13 11:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 32,026
Los Angeles, California, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
I haven't paid a model since 1996

Which one?

big_smile

Jan 09 13 11:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PDF IMAGES PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 4,598
Jacksonville, Florida, US


Commercial Works Photo wrote:

Counter question:

Why do so many new models with no experience want to be paid to shoot when by all indications, the only pose they know is duckface?

Also, SweetGirlyGirl wrote:

"I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work."

You know I have the same problem but on the other side of the camera.  So many people go out and buy a camera and then call themselves photographers that I found it too dificult to make money shooting models part time.  Now I would rather shoot TF than be pissed off that I am making so little money.  At least I get to shoot when the models shows up.

+1, wonder if the OP pays photographers ?? it a two way street and TFP's can benefit both fields, true I have limited TF shoots due to the economy, and ever think OP the economy maybe why you have less job opportunities ? best wishes in 2013 !

Jan 09 13 12:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 2,307
Muncie, Indiana, US


I have disrobed for TFP for amazing photographers and/or locations. It also helped my portfolio.
Jan 09 13 12:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HM-Photography
Posts: 250
Baltimore, Maryland, US


Mickle Design Werks wrote:
This is always the old saw: newbies and discounters are under cutting the ability for the seasoned vets and more skilled people to get work.

The problem isn't the competition or available substitutes for what a llama does but convincing people that you are fee worthy and worth taking the risk that you can produce what they need. In other words, it's not a competition problem, it's a marketing problem.

Doing TF* shoots is one way of many ways to help solve this marketing problem.

So, how does TF* shoots help you with your marketing?


So, to answer the OP's original question, doing nude TF* work (like a non-nude TF* shoot) is an investment in marketing. In order to get images that a llama wants or needs the only negotiating leverage that they have with a particular Photographer is their willingness to do nude work and barter that for the work that they want from them.

1

Extremely well said.

I knew there was a reason we got along... wink

Jan 09 13 12:15 pm  Link  Quote 
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