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Photographer
udor
Posts: 22,078
New York, New York, US


We all can see this uproar of professionals and non-professionals demonizing "photoshopped" images in advertising and otherwise, as if that was a new thing to do to alter an image dramatically.

Well... I went with my buddy to the Metropolitan Museum of Art to see a Matisse exhibition, but we also saw a new current exhibition, which I will go back to see, because of time constraints we had.

Faking It Manipulated Photography Before Photoshop

http://www.metmuseum.org/~/media/Images/Exhibitions/2012/Faking%20It/FakingIt_featured.ashx?mw=481


This exhibit was most fascinating...

When I was 15/16 (1981), I did an internship in the photolab of the German TV Network ZDF, and worked part time after school for 2 more years... there I had to dodge and burn, crop etc, on photos for movies and tv shows that were sent out to magazines, tv program papers and newspapers for their listings.

So, that was my involvement in non-electronic photo manipulation.

This exhibition is very fascinating... I knew of course about the hand coloring of images... as early as 1835 (or so) but they even had templates of battle scenes for mass productions where a soldier was photographed and his head inserted on a jumping cavalarist within a battle scene...

Anybody in NY, I recommend to take a look at that exhibition it ends January 27, 2013... it's truly fascinating... they also have a section for photo manipulation with Photoshop, and the results are equally as amazing of what some people did.

Here are two examples:

http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ph/web-large/DP257696.jpg
Io + gatto, Wanda Wulz  (1932)
Credit Line: Ford Motor Company Collection, Gift of Ford Motor Company and John C. Waddell, 1987


http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ph/web-large/DP112727.jpg
The Sleepwalker, George Platt Lynes  (1935)
Credit Line: Ford Motor Company Collection, Gift of Ford Motor Company and John C. Waddell, 1987
Jan 13 13 11:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,186
Portland, Oregon, US


From the artistic point of view, you should check out the images by Jerry Uelsmann.  All of his images were done in a darkroom.
Jan 13 13 11:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,580
Salinas, California, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
From the artistic point of view, you should check out the images by Jerry Uelsmann.  All of his images were done in a darkroom.

Very awesome what was being done in darkrooms before Photoshop!  Back in the day, I loved working in darkrooms ... almost as much as I enjoy shooting the pictures.   I still enjoy the challenge of "in camera capture" while doing double exposures, or using filters to create some of the images I have with film.

Jan 13 13 11:38 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
pxspace
Posts: 1,046
Braşov, Braşov, Romania


This looks like a very cool exhibition, would have loved to visit it.
Jan 13 13 12:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hugh Alison
Posts: 2,108
Aberystwyth, Wales, United Kingdom


"The valley of death" where the Charge of the Light brigade took place in the Crimean war - by Roger Fenton, 1855:

http://venetianred.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/roger-fentone28094into-the-shadow-of-the-valley-of-death.jpg?w=300

"Roger Fenton, Into the Shadow of the Valley of Death,1855, salt-paper photograph (courtesy Library of Congress). Note the cannonballs strewn in the road. This is one of two prints of the same scene—one with, one without cannonballs. Apparently, the one without was taken first. Fenton wouldn’t be the last war photographer to doctor a scene. "

http://venetianred.net/2008/08/05/into- … -of-death/
Jan 13 13 01:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


Hugh Alison wrote:
"The valley of death" where the Charge of the Light brigade took place in the Crimean war - by Roger Fenton, 1855:

http://venetianred.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/roger-fentone28094into-the-shadow-of-the-valley-of-death.jpg?w=300

"Roger Fenton, Into the Shadow of the Valley of Death,1855, salt-paper photograph (courtesy Library of Congress). Note the cannonballs strewn in the road. This is one of two prints of the same scene—one with, one without cannonballs. Apparently, the one without was taken first. Fenton wouldn’t be the last war photographer to doctor a scene. "

http://venetianred.net/2008/08/05/into- … -of-death/

I thought those were horse droppings.

Jan 13 13 01:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,144
New York, New York, US


I saw the exhibit a month or so ago. It was interesting, but in the end it pretty much reinforced the fact that if there's not story in a photo, it's simply not a good photo.

Most of the photos were about the manipulation itself and not very interesting. There were only a half dozen or so that were great photos.
Jan 13 13 01:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,746
London, England, United Kingdom


There be witches in this room.

;-)
Jan 13 13 02:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lumatic
Posts: 13,750
Chicago, Illinois, US


Yep, people were manipulating and compositing photographs long before Photoshop.  Anyone who thinks that's a new thing doesn't know their history.  I don't know what it is with people having some kind of obsession with the photograph having to be the sacrosanct truth just because it records an image mechanically.  It's the same with compositing:

Gustave Le Gray regularly composited separately-shot skies into his mid-19th century seascapes with combination printing, retouching the horizon and adding/subtracting elements as he saw fit.
http://www.midnightpoutine.ca/upload/2010/11/20101126Mediterranean%20Sea%20at%20Sete-Gustave%20Le%20Gray.jpg

Henry Peach Robinson made "Fading Away" in 1858 out of multiple negatives.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ccOJPs1_dCQ/TXQMELKZGiI/AAAAAAAASU0/qShoUC9StOA/s1600/peach%2Brobinson%2Bfading%2Baway%2B1858.jpg

Edouard Baldus shot and composited the Cloister of Saint-Trophime Aries in 1851 with 10 negatives... plus a hand-painted negative of the vaulted ceiling, which he didn't shoot!
http://lh4.ggpht.com/-rlYpoJQe2-s/SvpiDNXhtMI/AAAAAAAAAhs/Xmf6mxO2ZrQ/Cloister%252520of%252520Saint-Trophime%252520Arles_1851_Edouard%252520Baldus.jpg

Oscar Rejlander made "The Two Ways of Life" in 1857 after viewing Raphael's "The School of Athens."  Over thirty negatives.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1432/1184969319_31bb656e0f.jpg
Jan 13 13 07:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2,329
New York, New York, US


Terms like Dodge and Burn have their roots in very real actions.
Has anyone heard of any work by Prokudin-Gorskii, which was retouched by the artist??

Imagine that? Retouched color images before color film existed!

It would have been interesting (albeit intricate) process!
Jan 14 13 04:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,406
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


And people think (Pshop) the wheel was invented yesterday.
Different technique same results.
Jan 14 13 05:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
NewBoldPhoto
Posts: 4,897
PORT MURRAY, New Jersey, US


MC Photo wrote:
I saw the exhibit a month or so ago. It was interesting, but in the end it pretty much reinforced the fact that if there's not story in a photo, it's simply not a good photo.

Most of the photos were about the manipulation itself and not very interesting. There were only a half dozen or so that were great photos.

Now, if you were curating an exhibit of manipulations wouldn't you put the manipulation itself front and center?
I saw the exhibit and thought it was great but I walked in looking to see the manipulations... my only complaint is that it is always hot in that gallery.

Jan 15 13 01:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
udor
Posts: 22,078
New York, New York, US


NewBoldPhoto wrote:

Now, if you were curating an exhibit of manipulations wouldn't you put the manipulation itself front and center?
I saw the exhibit and thought it was great but I walked in looking to see the manipulations... my only complaint is that it is always hot in that gallery.

I had not enough time to look at everything in detail... but I will go back there and look at it again before it closes... probably on Thursday...

Jan 16 13 09:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 8,550
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada


And good old Ansel would not be allowed in current CAPA or PSA comps. because he spent weeks dodging and burning his prints.
Jan 16 13 09:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
NewBoldPhoto
Posts: 4,897
PORT MURRAY, New Jersey, US


udor wrote:

I had not enough time to look at everything in detail... but I will go back there and look at it again before it closes... probably on Thursday...

When you first walk in (assuming you enter thru the first door you come to and take the shortest route from the main entrance) to your left will be a hand-colored Daguerreotype it is beautiful in a way that I find hard to describe but after seeing it the only reason that I am not shooting Daguerreotypes now is that my wife won't let me install a chemical fume hood in the house and Iodine is nasty without proper venting.

Jan 16 13 09:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Thomas Dodd
Posts: 433
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Lumatic wrote:
Yep, people were manipulating and compositing photographs long before Photoshop.  Anyone who thinks that's a new thing doesn't know their history.  I don't know what it is with people having some kind of obsession with the photograph having to be the sacrosanct truth just because it records an image mechanically.  It's the same with compositing:

How very true - as long as the art of photography has existed, people have been manipulating images to achieve fantastic and unreal results..
Or as Ansel Adams once famously said "You don't take a photograph, you make it"

Here is a timeline (dating back to the 1850s) that I like to refer the "Get it right in camera" and "That's not photography - that's graphic design" crowd to from time to time...
http://www.d-log.info/timeline/index.html

Jan 17 13 03:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carlos Occidental
Posts: 10,546
Glendora, California, US


http://www.uelsmann.net/

http://www.google.com/search?client=saf … 30&bih=694

All his shots are done in a wet darkroom with 8 enlargers.
Jan 17 13 03:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shades Of Gray
Posts: 1,052
Colorado Springs, Colorado, US


One of my earlier published works came about when ditching my English and Journalism classes in high school.  There was a significant eclipse of the Sun that day and I talked the teacher into letting my friend and I skip the two classes to photograph the event. (Well, I needed and "assistant" take this complex photograph, right?) 

Nevermind that the only cameras I had at that time were a Speedgraphic 4x5 with a 135mm lens and a 2 1/4 sq, twin lens Mamiya with an 80mm. Since I had to show something for my time spent, I whipped up a plausible example in the darkroom.

Well, it turns out the teacher was a member of some astronomy association and he submitted the picture to them without my knowledge. They then published it in their monthly magazine.  I just knew that I would get busted for sure by the experts.  I never did.  He had it put in the yearbook as well, full page no less.  I am pretty sure that the statute of limitations has expired by now smile

It was so much fun back in the day when I was great in the darkroom and could do all kinds of magic.  Now, I find myself still playing catch-up in Photoshop with some of the amazing work here. Maybe I will get there before technology takes another giant leap.  I still miss the wonderful smell of the chemicals and what that smell meant.  I might have gone digital sooner if they had offered a "scratch and sniff" version of Adobe Photoshop. wink
Jan 20 13 11:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,580
Salinas, California, US


I forgot!   I have one where I did a double exposure on film. 

It's in my Classics folder;

http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/050418/15/42641f5968fc5.jpg

Not perfect, but that's how it looks on film ....
... with no manipulation other than shooting twice on the same frame.
Jan 20 13 12:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4,760
Houston, Texas, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:
From the artistic point of view, you should check out the images by Jerry Uelsmann.  All of his images were done in a darkroom.

Yeah... Uelsmann's work was/IS amazing!!  None of that whimpy Photoshop shit..

Jan 20 13 12:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,144
New York, New York, US


NewBoldPhoto wrote:

Now, if you were curating an exhibit of manipulations wouldn't you put the manipulation itself front and center?
I saw the exhibit and thought it was great but I walked in looking to see the manipulations... my only complaint is that it is always hot in that gallery.

I'm not clear what you're getting at?

I see the logic in displaying the subject of the exhibition.

I think I probably would have scrapped the idea if I was in charge. Or if that wasn't an option, I'd probably have set it up so that you see a series without the manipulation followed by the manipulated photos so that you can actually experience the difference. Also groups of manipulated photo before non-manuiplated photos.

In the most literal sense, manipulations are about the surface - the exteriors, which for the most part is irrelevant. The best photos are about the subject's interior. Even though it may not appear or feel that way, that's what we react to.

Jan 29 13 12:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mike Collins
Posts: 1,832
Orlando, Florida, US


Having gone to photo school in Daytona, Uelsmann use to come to our school often to give seminars and workshops.  Very cool work and a great guy.  Taught at U of F forever.  Probably still does.

BUT...

Back in the late 80's/early 90s Neil Molinaro blew me away with things he did "in camera"

He did a few of shots for Sinar for their catalog and ads.  And of course for many well known companies.

All the shots in this gallery were done in camera with masks, many exposures, and lighting.   http://neilmolinaro.com/Long%20Ago/SinarWatch.html

Still does great work.  Have no idea if he uses PS or not.  He was so talented without it.  I would imagine he does.
Jan 29 13 08:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gerry OHalloran Photo
Posts: 554
Wayne, Pennsylvania, US


At least with Rep. Nancy Pelosi she added members of the House of Representatives to the Capital steps photograph instead of removing politicians and others from the Kremlin wall like Stalin did in his day when they fell out of favor.
Jan 29 13 10:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TomFRohwer
Posts: 620
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany


After Leon Trotsky fell into disgrace Stalin's censors edited him out from a famous picture which shows him with Lenin...

http://private.freepage.de/cgi-bin/feets/freepage_ext/339483x434877d/rewrite/juergeno/d.jpg
Jan 30 13 05:33 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Amanda Ashley Harris
Posts: 79
Los Angeles, California, US


There is a difference between the above mentioned beautiful artwork and making a lovely girl look like a creepy barbie doll and trying to sell it as sexy. Next, there is a vast difference in quality of those photographs versus cgi/photoshop of again, a lovely girl who is photoshopped to look like a creepy mermaid and trying to sell it as sexy.
Suspension of disbelief...you don't look at those photographs and say "WOW! That lady is HALF CAT!!!!" in the same way you don't see an overly photoshopped portrait and go "WOW! That lady is completely PERFECT! She doesn't even have veins in her eyes!"

For my experience, that was where most of the backlash against photoshop is from. People who don't understand how to use it give it a bad rap, because as far as I am concerned, it is necessary to achieve the image you want in the way that the best photographers of all time spent hours in the darkroom. Photoshop tools are named after darkroom techniques for a reason. :-)
Jan 31 13 10:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 2,149
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands


image-manipulation does not equal photography smile (includes warping, liquifying, distorting, moving pixels around etc)

a photograph that is being altered is an image, or illustration.... not a photograph

on the other hand...i would go as far as saying that superimposing/sandwich techniques still stay within photographic real...it's done by light
Jan 31 13 02:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Supermodel Photographer
Posts: 3,309
Oyster Bay, New York, US


Shades Of Gray wrote:
One of my earlier published works came about when ditching my English and Journalism classes

By now it probably regrets having ditched those classes.

Feb 02 13 11:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
johnreefphotography
Posts: 192
Washington, District of Columbia, US


This exhibit opens at the National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC on February 17.
Feb 11 13 04:43 pm  Link  Quote 
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