Since I joined mm and began my attempt to work with models I've had 2 shoots and 8 cancelations. 3 of them were no call no shows, 2 were weather related. The majority were to be paid shoots. Getting discouraged, does it get better? What's your cancelation rate?
were these Paid shoots by ? I always like to throw incentive in... but the work on model mayhem is more of my hobby and separate from my business work so I budget for it.
FoxyStudios wrote: were these Paid shoots by ? I always like to throw incentive in... but the work on model mayhem is more of my hobby and separate from my business work so I budget for it.
Jackson frontier photos wrote: Since I joined mm and began my attempt to work with models I've had 2 shoots and 8 cancelations. 3 of them were no call no shows, 2 were weather related. The majority were to be paid shoots. Getting discouraged, does it get better? What's your cancelation rate?
I have gotten a cancellation about once a decade on average.
Why is my cancellation rate better than some/most? I tend to work with models with a good track record of reliability. If you get a high cancellation rate, learn to be more selective.
Other tips:
... Always have a contingency plan. There is always something constructive you
can be doing.
... Develop relationships with your local models. Perhaps, one can become your
"go-to" model (a model who may be able to drop what she's doing & make it
over to your location on short notice).
... Contributing yet another "flake" thread to these forums reflect poorly on you.
Tina Sun
Posts: 29
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Context: I'm by no means a professional (i think) photog; and I usually shoot TFP projects on MM. But I haven't had a single cancellation ever from anyone on the team! I think a few general rules of thumb:
- double, triple confirm before the shoot. I always send through moodboards, checklists of what they need etc and check the night before.
- weather: keep everyone updated as best you can and have contingency dates where everyone is available. 99% of my shoots are all on location so weather is such a hassle to deal with that you kinda have to get into the rhythm of working around it, and have backup concepts to do if necessary.
if you're doing paid assignments, i'd suggest working with agency rep'd models - I always do that for bigger projects. But to be honest, I think MM is a great place for finding teams because there's less formality and everything can be organised faster/more directly.
If you were working with an agency and on an advertising shoot and it was cancelled then you might get a rebooking fee. Don't forget where your at. It's MM.
you were paying the models and they didn't show up? i've never had that happen. trade shoots can be iffy but when i pay the models good money they show up.
twoharts wrote: you were paying the models and they didn't show up? i've never had that happen. trade shoots can be iffy but when i pay the models good money they show up.
I'd agreed to the rate they asked for as well, don't know, I'll rack it up to the weather, will do more to confirm with them if they respond, if not ill call someone else.
i mostly work with models i already know (or the traveling models who do it to pay their bills). too many girls on here aren't taking it seriously.
Jackson frontier photos wrote: I'd agreed to the rate they asked for as well, don't know, I'll rack it up to the weather, will do more to confirm with them if they respond, if not ill call someone else.
The weather argument is getting overused I think XP
I've got a rather high (TF) cancellation rate (at least if I take into account that people are supposed to be INDEED interested in what they're doing)...
it's weird that models don't show up for paid shoots. I guess, as suggested before, that you should double/triple confirm with them. Call them the day before maybe.
twoharts wrote: you were paying the models and they didn't show up? i've never had that happen. trade shoots can be iffy but when i pay the models good money they show up.
Not necessarily. I have had a few cancellations on page shoots. O.e travelling model claimed he could not get a standby seat. One new model evidently got cold feet. He called to say he was stuck in traffic and would be a bit late. Maybe aliens snatched him from his cartomorrow because I .never heard from him again.
Currently I'm negotiating with a guy who has postponed the date 6 times. There has always been a legitimate reason or another each time. We are now set for the first week of February. He doesn't know it yet but this is his last chance.
twoharts wrote: i mostly work with models i already know (or the traveling models who do it to pay their bills). too many girls on here aren't taking it seriously.
well to be fair it seems like some photographers aren't taking it seriously either. all those folks make it hard for those of use who do care.
i got messaged today from a model i met because she sold me my cellphone at costco. she had an inactive mayhem account but i think that meeting her not through an internet modeling site made all the difference and we've had one good TF shoot and are planning another. her mom is a kick. mom and her son watched the studio while we shot the model.
we should all form a posse, grab some pitchforks and ride out and, um, do something about it. it would be like City Slickers. lol.
seriously though i'm about done with this place as far as shooting is concerned. i'll just use it for the forums and the odd llama that is reliable. if women want payback against men for all the patriarchy (or whatever their problem is) they can take it out on someone else already.
twoharts wrote: i mostly work with models i already know (or the traveling models who do it to pay their bills). too many girls on here aren't taking it seriously.
This. I find that traveling models that need to cover their travel expenses will usually show up for a shoot. As far as local models here in Vegas go, the flake rate is very high.
The OP needs to keep in mind that money does not guarantee a model will show up. Less professional/amateur models will blow off a shoot more often even if they are to be paid compared to a real professional. The reality is that you get what you pay for. You might have to pay a lot more to get a true pro but more than likely they will show up and do a great job which will result in great images.
Seldom get cancellations when money is involved. If they cancel its usually for a very good reason...the unexpected. I have isolated a couple of models who say they will shoot, but are so unreliable that I just ignore them now.
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US
Jackson frontier photos wrote: Since I joined mm and began my attempt to work with models I've had 2 shoots and 8 cancelations.
the harsh reality is it's a "you" problem. reconsider your approach to what is being offered.
there's a big difference between let's get together and take some pictures and let's present you as a marketable model. models will recognize that in an instant by determining whether what you can produce is publication worthy...that is the litmus test for those who model or those who just want their picture taken.
he's paying them their rack rate. what do they care what the shoot will be (assuming it's within their nudity limits) if they are getting paid? or are the models now thinking they want all the benefits of a TF shoot plus getting paid $75/hour?
291 wrote: there's a big difference between let's get together and take some pictures and let's present you as a marketable model. models will recognize that in an instant by determining whether what you can produce is publication worthy...that is the litmus test for those who model or those who just want their picture taken.
I don't see how you can have so many models flake on you when you are paying? I never had a flake when I was paying for their time. TFP, shit, I don't even mark my calendar for it anymore. I leave that open as a coin toss. I keep the Bacardi on ice so when they don't show I still have fun!...Then I delete them!...Maybe it's something you are saying to them that makes them uneasy???..........
291 wrote: so what? believe it or not there are those who might not find it worth the effort based on expected results.
The expected results are Financial compensation...No ??
If the amount was not worth it to them they should have not agreed to the terms of the assignment.
the harsh reality is it's a "you" problem. reconsider your approach to what is being offered.
there's a big difference between let's get together and take some pictures and let's present you as a marketable model. models will recognize that in an instant by determining whether what you can produce is publication worthy...that is the litmus test for those who model or those who just want their picture taken.
Can they not just say no if that is the case? No problem with being turned down, we are talking about a yes that turns into a ???
Models are a breed apart. I once nagged a model for weeks to get her to shoot with me. At first she said I was not professional enough. Then when I showed her references, she said my work was not her style. I said I can shoot in many styles. So she said I couldn't afford her anymore as she had just raised her rates due to demand. I said I would pay double her new rates, so she said she would be available in late Aug and would get back to me (this was in March). We set a date three and 1/2 months in advance. I checked with her every week. Guess what, night before shoot she emailed, boy friend was in fight in bar in Key West and she had to fly down because he was in hospital.
ButchArri
Posts: 53
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
I have to say I had no idea it was like this and it's a real eye opener. I feel sorry for photographers that have to deal with this on a constant basis. Unfortunately the whole ordeal with people agreeing and then not following through more often then they do is making me look at models in a much colder and more detached way than when I initially decided to join this place...maybe it's a good thing I don't know.
In a lot of respects I appreciate this place being here, but it's clear even from the short time I've been here that people agreeing to do something then not following through is just par for the course until you get into the upper echelon of models which is a sad thing for all parties involved considering how much work ends up not getting done, how much time ends up getting wasted, and how little people have to show for all the leg work that actually gets put in.
Marin Photography wrote: TFP, shit, I don't even mark my calendar for it anymore. I leave that open as a coin toss. I keep the Bacardi on ice so when they don't show I still have fun!...Then I delete them!...Maybe it's something you are saying to them that makes them uneasy???..........
Ah, that explains why when as a TF model on here photographers would get me to set aside a day for a shoot, then stop communication. A few times when I actually got a shoot confirmed, I would turn up to find the photographer had decided that I was going to flake and hadn't even prepared for the shoot. A few times they didn't even turn up! Too many times I never got anything back for my efforts.
I have to admit the forums have scared me off booking models from Mayhem so I don't know how more or less frustrating it from the photographers side yet..
NC Art Photos
Posts: 523
Raleigh, North Carolina, US
Muff Rider wrote: the flake rate is out of hand!
Ditto!
I get way more flakes to models who show up. Even for paying jobs for clients who pay me. I tell them it's always best to book extra models on an "as-needed" basis for just that reason.
I had a shoot in NYC not long after 9-11. Talked with ten models. Booked 5 but only 2 showed up at the rally point.
I've not had a flake since I started on MM and almost all my port shots are of TF MM models. I've had one model reschedule twice that finally showed up and that's it.
I've got 5 shoots lined up for feb/march, all TF.
I don't offer payment, I don't promise magazine covers, I don't pretend I'm connected.
I had one cancel last minute on a TF which sucked as I was on my way to NYC to shoot her. At least she let me know and didnt pull a no show..(I was going for other reasons as well but I was shooting her first and rented a lens I wanted to try, was paid for. Im upstate in CNY) and one get get flaky when it was a paid gig. Only time I ever offered pay and they played games. Go figure. It was photos, food, and cash! Oh and pro MU/hair as well.
My one in NYC I did an immediate casting and found a great model that hustled butt to me and we had a good shoot. Loved her! I did giver her a $50 for travel and a bite to eat as she really helped me out last minute. Tipped I guess you could say, she didnt expect it.
Other than that my models have been great.
My issue lately is I cant get anyone to reply to a casting here and CL (particularly one that actually reads the casting!) In the past Id post a casting and have 40 replies in 72 hours now I get maybe 3 or 4 in weeks and they are usually over 4 hours away form me.. Im not going to have a model travel that far with no pay.. Even if I were to cover travel, its just too far to travel for them for a TF with a bit of travel cash. I dont pay its always TF. I supply MU/hair, wardrobe, some snacks, and photos. Usually 3-4 looks. Thats enough pay. My work aint That bad...
I do model shooting for the hobby side for me. And sure I use the photos to sell me to clients for my boudoir/glam type stuff but its mostly just for fun/creative for me, or i want to play with a new lighting trick. No time for that with paying clients. Models work does not pay in my area. My portraits and event/weddings do.
twoharts wrote: i mostly work with models i already know (or the traveling models who do it to pay their bills). too many girls on here aren't taking it seriously.
ChiMo wrote: Thank you for finally saying it.
Y'know -- something about this rubs me the wrong way the slightest bit.
Sure, there are models here who aren't taking it seriously.
But serious photographers learn to avoid them (as twoharts suggests). Less serious photographers refuse to improve their model selection process -- instead, they come to these forums and start yet another variation of a "flake thread", complaining about how other people wrong them and that it's all the model's fault.
I had to reconsider what I deemed flakes. If you loose communication you get flakes. Once I started aggressively following up with everything, made alternate arrangements when required, became more flexible . . . the flake rate when from 80% to about 5%.
twoharts wrote: i mostly work with models i already know (or the traveling models who do it to pay their bills). too many girls on here aren't taking it seriously.
ChiMo wrote: Thank you for finally saying it.
Not correct, the OP is taking things way too seriously for the area that they are in.
Plus it's way too easy to ignore not serious models, or not serious anyone for that matter. It's also not like MM is magic in that anyone is forced to work with someone because they just made a profile...
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