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Photographer
terrysphotocountry
Posts: 4,064
Rochester, New York, US


rp_photo wrote:

Shooting with me means seeing everything hours after the shoot whether trade or paid.

Like rp said seeing the un edited images at the studio or even on a web site with in hours is the best. I normally have them posted on a web site were they are pass word protected. After they pick out the ones they like I replace them with the edited version with in two weeks.

Jan 14 13 06:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,490
Houston, Texas, US


ASYLUM - Photo wrote:

Disappearing and/or not explaining the reason for no images is pretty shitty. hmm

People's time should be compensated in some fashion.

When models stiff photographers, no shoot happens.

When photographers stiff models, the shoot usually does happen, which seems worse to me.

Jan 14 13 06:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KA Style
Posts: 1,583
Syracuse, New York, US


Yup. I do however give at least one photo as my lighting was not That bad.. Or we re-shoot.
Jan 14 13 06:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,490
Houston, Texas, US


terrysphotocountry wrote:
Like rp said seeing the un edited images at the studio or even on a web site with in hours is the best. I normally have them posted on a web site were they are pass word protected. After they pick out the ones they like I replace them with the edited version with in two weeks.

Some photographers are so full of themselves that they only think models should get to the see the images they deem to be good enough.

That being said, I will reject a model's selection over technical flaws such as bad focus or exposure.

Jan 14 13 06:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


richardsphotographybc wrote:
Oh my,this actually happened to me,I did a TF shoot with a model. For some reason all the photos turned out overexposed and I was so embarrassed. I contacted the model to let her know that it was a bad shoot and was sorry. I offered compensation for her time. She said she was sad because we had a fun shoot. So i gave her all the RAW files as she requested. Well long story short her mom is a photoshop wizard and was able to fix them.

FEW,

If her mom was able to salvage the shots, why couldn't you?

Jan 14 13 06:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,304
Salem, Oregon, US


don't shoot with jerks who are clueless about post-processing and who won't get you photos? check references, ask around. people who consistently behave poorly do leave scorch marks behind them.
Jan 14 13 06:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


rp_photo wrote:
Some photographers are so full of themselves that they only think models should get to the see the images they deem to be good enough.

That being said, I will reject a model's selection over technical flaws such as bad focus or exposure.

I filter out the shots I'd never want the world to see, then from the remaining shots the model gets to choose her shots to be finished.

Why waste the model's time and mine by giving her access to all the shots and letting her pick out-of-focus shots, only to tell her, "No, you can't pick that one?"

Jan 14 13 06:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JGH Photography
Posts: 58
Farmington Hills, Michigan, US


If this was a trade the photographer should have absolutely made sure there was some stuff you could use in your port. When I pay models I feel free to experiment and shoot what I like, but if they're trading their time there needs to be some benefit to them.

John
Jan 14 13 06:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jordan L Duncan
Posts: 207
Jacksonville, Florida, US


Under normal circumstances I would say to ask for a re-shoot, that way both you and the photographer can get the material you were looking for. But in this case I would not do it because I think it would be a waste of your time.

You said you contacted her months ago and she just now got back to you saying the pictures were not good enough, and ended her message with an lol. Like it meant nothing to her that you put time and effort into the shoot and came away without anything for your port. Yes, it means that she has nothing from the shoot for her port either, but she should have told you a long time ago. It didn't take her months to get the pics from your shoot off her memory card and onto her hard drive and take a peek at them. She knew they weren't up to her standard that night when she got home and put the pics on her computer. Then she was so embarrassed that it took her this long to get back in touch with you.

Don't work with her again unless she pays you up front. If another model contacts you for a reference, let them know about this situation.

Before shooting, always get 3-5 references from models and stylists who have worked with the photographer. Be sure to ask about images and how long it took to get the images back, and whether or not they delivered the agreed upon material.
Jan 14 13 06:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
richardsphotographybc
Posts: 415
Langley, British Columbia, Canada


Orca Bay Images wrote:

If her mom was able to salvage the shots, why couldn't you?

Well for your info, I am in no way a photoshop wizard. If I was I would of fixed them. I just started to work in photoshop. So hope that answered your question.

Jan 14 13 06:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Viator Defessus Photos
Posts: 1,011
College Station, Texas, US


T A Y L O R  wrote:
+100 This. You could message her and say, "I understand and respect that the images did not come out to your satisfaction. As this shoot was a trade for images however, and I did not receive any images, I'm going to have to ask that you either send me X number of edited images or pay my rates for the time we spent shooting, which are X."
Damianne wrote:
It happens.
Ask her if you can reschedule, maybe somewhere that she knows she can get great results.
She should have offered to reschedule in the first place.

I'd say possibly a combination of both of these:
1) Apologize for screwing up (because, unless she's lying, she screwed up)
2) Offer at least a few images, retouched from that shoot. I don't agree with offering unedited images as some have suggested. Editing is part of "the deal" that the photographer agrees to and almost any image can benefit from it. Welching on the editing is still not delivering as agreed.
3) Offer to either a) shoot the concept again (hopefully she learned from her mistake) or b) shoot a new concept.

Jan 14 13 06:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,490
Houston, Texas, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:
I filter out the shots I'd never want the world to see, then from the remaining shots the model gets to choose her shots to be finished.

Why waste the model's time and mine by giving her access to all the shots and letting her pick out-of-focus shots, only to tell her, "No, you can't pick that one?"

Call me lazy. I like to generate a preview quickly and be done with it.

In general, a model only picks a flawed image about half the time, and almost never more than 2.

Jan 14 13 06:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,304
Salem, Oregon, US


you can outsource to mayhem wizards for $5/photo. heck i've even had them at $1/image. or put it up in the retouching forum for a free retouch. photographers who care will find a way. if you managed to take off the lens cap it may be possible to save the image unless it's hopelessly over-exposed or super blurry.

if someone can't post-process then they should just give the model the originals and let her figure it out. some of these ladies are very talented and/or know someone who is good with photoshop.

richardsphotographybc wrote:
Well for your info, I am in no way a photoshop wizard. If I was I would of fixed them. I just started to work in photoshop. So hope that answered your question.

Jan 14 13 06:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


rp_photo wrote:

Call me lazy. I like to "batch out" a preview quickly and be done with it.

In Bridge, it takes insignificant time and effort to filter out the bad shots.

In general, a model only picks a flawed image about half the time, and almost never more than 2.

"Half the time" still entails an unnecessary round of, "Can't have that one. Pick another," which is at least a day or two of delay.

Jan 14 13 06:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Viator Defessus Photos
Posts: 1,011
College Station, Texas, US


rp_photo wrote:
Call me lazy. I like to generate a preview quickly and be done with it.

In general, a llama only picks a flawed image about half the time, and almost never more than 2.

Well, you may be lazy but I'll be in the same boat for the most part. About the only things I pull out are black frames from the flashes/strobes failing to fire.

Jan 14 13 07:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,304
Salem, Oregon, US


same here. i'm not getting paid so i'm lazy and make the model choose. of course they often choose something that makes me wish i weren't so lazy! lol

Viator-Defessus Photos wrote:
Well, you may be lazy but I'll be in the same boat for the most part. About the only things I pull out are black frames from the flashes/strobes failing to fire.

Jan 14 13 07:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


the unwritten rule of thumb for photographers is, "if it isn't worthy for my portfolio it isn't worthy to release the images for any portfolio." 

the unfortunate circumstance for tf* is some feel there is a written rule that it doesn't matter.  give me what you think is crap regardless.  that doesn't bode well for either party, but for many it doesn't matter.  they just want the pictures regardless of the quality.  simply surf the site to confirm that.

what most don't realize is just having pictures for the sake of it can create more harm than good.  just because one goes through the motions of tf* doesn't mean the effort becomes a guarantee.  the opposite should be the approach and if greatness isn't captured then throw them all away.
Jan 14 13 08:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,490
Houston, Texas, US


291 wrote:
the unwritten rule of thumb for photographers is, "if it isn't worthy for my portfolio it isn't worthy to release the images for any portfolio."

I could never be that arrogant. Just because an image might not benefit my port doesn't mean it couldn't benefit another.

However, I have began purging selected earlier work from my own site that no longer seems worthy because of the modeling, photography, or both. In one case it was because the model and I had a bad falling out later on.

Jan 14 13 08:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


291 wrote:
the unwritten rule of thumb for photographers is, "if it isn't worthy for my portfolio it isn't worthy to release the images for any portfolio."
rp_photo wrote:
I could never be that arrogant.

then you aren't shooting models from a professional standpoint, you're playing let's take pictures without an understanding of what model imaging is at its core to advance both parties.

Jan 14 13 08:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,490
Houston, Texas, US


291 wrote:

then you aren't shooting models from a professional standpoint, you're playing let's take pictures without an understanding of what model imaging is at its core to advance both parties.

I'm OK with that, as are most of the models I work with.

Jan 14 13 08:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
CBs Photography
Posts: 558
Ontario, California, US


When I shoot, after about every 10 shots or so I review the pictures with the model.  That way we can both see how the pictures are coming along and if any adjustments need to be made.  Sometimes the model may like a pose but not her expression or vice versa, or I may need to make an adjustment to the lighting or backdrop, ect.  I do it this way so we are going over the pictures before the next look, and we don't have to go over all of the pictures at the end of the shoot.
Jan 14 13 09:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


291 wrote:
then you aren't shooting models from a professional standpoint, you're playing let's take pictures without an understanding of what model imaging is at its core to advance both parties.
rp_photo wrote:
I'm OK with that, as are most of the models I work with.

then you don't fall into those toward where my initial comment was based.  you assumed arrogance as a preface that didn't apply to you.  that doesn't mean a blanket statement of being an arrogant approach for others without a full understanding of strong presentation.

Jan 14 13 09:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,304
Salem, Oregon, US


in the studio we shoot into a TV so there aren't any surprises. if it sucks (and they care) they will let me know.

CBs Photography wrote:
When I shoot, after about every 10 shots or so I review the pictures with the model.

Jan 14 13 09:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 2,926
Royal Oak, Michigan, US


Its important to have a detailed conversation about how many images you will get, when, and what happens if the photographer is not satisfied with the shoot.  As a model, I would not agree to do the trade shoot unless I was guaranteed at least some images.

Even now you can say "I would not have agreed to do the shoot if I knew you might not provide any images.  If you want to get a positive recommendation from me, I will need to get some images from our shoot per our agreement."
Jan 14 13 09:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
EmGii
Posts: 151
Rancho Cucamonga, California, US


i told her this,

"do you think maybe i could have a few photos to see just to look at how i posed and maybe edit them? i wont credit you if you want. o: it's just i drove all the way out there for a trade shoot and i kinda want something. you know?
like maybe i could pay a retoucher to fix them or something. (:"

i hope that didn't come off badly, i'm waiting for a reply. c:
Jan 14 13 10:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
EmGii
Posts: 151
Rancho Cucamonga, California, US


it said she read the message a while ago but she didn't reply. :L guess i'll just let it go. wah. ):
Jan 14 13 10:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MB JenB
Posts: 2,919
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


EmGii wrote:
so i got a message from a lovely photographer that i did a trade shoot with, she said "sorry i never sent you those photos from the trade shoot. i ended up not liking them. i am a perfectionist lol" and i asked if it was my modeling and was told it was her lighting. /: has this happened to anyone else? it's the first time this happened to me, i kinda feel like i wasted my time now. :L is there any way to avoid this in the future?

Yes indeed. It has happened to me twice. What I've learned is to make sure that logistics are taken care of before the shoot, (is it outdoor lighting, are they a natural light shooter and if it is indoors lighting are they happy with it!)
Jen

Jan 14 13 11:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 32,233
Lodi, California, US


EmGii wrote:
it said she read the message a while ago but she didn't reply. :L guess i'll just let it go. wah. ):

You should have attached an LOL at the end of your query. wink

Jan 14 13 11:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chuckarelei
Posts: 9,332
Seattle, Washington, US


EmGii wrote:
so i got a message from a lovely photographer that i did a trade shoot with, she said "sorry i never sent you those photos from the trade shoot. i ended up not liking them. i am a perfectionist lol" and i asked if it was my modeling and was told it was her lighting. /: has this happened to anyone else? it's the first time this happened to me, i kinda feel like i wasted my time now. :L is there any way to avoid this in the future?

Review and revise your screening criteria, procedures, and methods. Find better people to deal with next time.

Jan 15 13 12:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image Works Photography
Posts: 2,890
Orlando, Florida, US


Good pointers- check references and consistency on the portfolio. Usually newbies pay models to start up and have something in their portfolio. Sorry to say but you been had. A complete waste of time but she got some practice out of you. I have been in this for over 2 years and I have always returned a few pictures. She must have been really lost.
Jan 15 13 12:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,030
Chicago, Illinois, US


A test shoot doesn't always mean good or usable results.   Its a gamble.   Even shooters with excellent books screw up and or aren't happy with their work.   Its part of modeling.   I'm certain the photographer didn't plan things to turn out that way.   People who value what they put out won't usually give work they aren't willing to show themselves.   Credited or not.   There is no lesson to be learned.   Stuff happens.   If the OP wasn't offered a re-shoot then that's that.
Jan 15 13 12:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


This happens all the time good luck next time. I feel for you since you put in all your time and if you bought outfits for the shoot and waisted your gas money. The fact that you did a trade with her is no excuse for the photographer not to set up a reshoot and offer you some gas money for your further efforts just to keep things with you and her in perspective. If this photographer does not do any thing to recompensate you. You should be extra carefull next time or have the photographer include what the arraingements will be on a trade shoot if they decide not to give you any images. Good luck
Jan 15 13 12:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


It's one of the reasons I use at least three different lighting set-ups combined with as many costume changes on TF shoots (assuming there are any 'costumes'...)... Luckily my studio is big enough to shoot using daylight as well as using strobes concurrently, so if I think a particular outfit might benefit from a more informal look we just walk over to the windows...

Occasionally one of the set-ups won't be to my liking and no: I won't release any of them either - not even unedited for use anonymously...
Jan 15 13 12:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photo36 Models
Posts: 26
Franklin, New Jersey, US


Koryn Locke wrote:
It's not uncommon.

In all honesty, I shot with many, many people for trade, over the years, whom I never heard from again. They just disappeared.

Unbelievable! Never knew this was very common.

Only one person deciding all photos are bad without letting the other one involved to see them is not acceptable.  I have had llamas who liked images I didn't. So, I gave them to her anyway.  It is shared work.  Photographer acting as if "everything is mine" after the shoot isn't fair.

Better asking her to let you -at least- see the photos.  Good luck!

Jan 15 13 03:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Photo36 Models wrote:

Unbelievable! Never knew this was very common.

Only one person deciding all photos are bad without letting the other one involved to see them is not acceptable.  I have had models who liked images I didn't. So, I gave them to her anyway.  It is shared work.  Photographer acting as if "everything is mine" after the shoot isn't fair.

Better asking her to let you -at least- see the photos.  Good luck!

You've not been doing this very long have you? What if the model chooses an image that really sucks? That's YOUR name on the photo, not hers - YOUR photographic skills (or perceived lack thereof) will be judged by viewers, not hers...

The Photographer edits his own images and is responsible for output - that's how it is...

Jan 15 13 04:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,453
Paris, Île-de-France, France


Yes things can happen.

The other day I lost a whole series. I was shooting on a card, shot the beginning of the series on one card until it was full. Changed cards reformatted the card and again continued. No trace of those images anywhere, even after using a thorough recovery scan of multiple cards and even my hard drive.

Since I have the beginning of the series, there are still some yet they are not that good. I likely will not deliver any images from that particular series.

IF all shots are bad, that is something that should have been watched for when shooting.

In any case either they owe you a reshoot, or they should at least send a small selection of the best to see if anything is salvageable.
Jan 15 13 04:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ChanStudio - OtherSide
Posts: 5,317
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


EmGii wrote:
so i got a message from a lovely photographer that i did a trade shoot with, she said "sorry i never sent you those photos from the trade shoot. i ended up not liking them. i am a perfectionist lol" and i asked if it was my modeling and was told it was her lighting. /: has this happened to anyone else? it's the first time this happened to me, i kinda feel like i wasted my time now. :L is there any way to avoid this in the future?

You got nothing? Rather the photographer likes it or not, at least you should get some images as proof.  Photographer should know how to use their lights and should be prepared.

Jan 15 13 04:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eric Fagerheim
Posts: 125
Trondheim, Sør-Trøndelag, Norway


Whats up with photographers not keeping their part of the deal. If the photog do a bad job it is not the models fault. And the photog should atleast be able to handle lighting. If you don't are you really a photographer? Photography is first of all creating an image with light. Without light you got nothing.
Jan 15 13 04:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


EmGii wrote:
is there any way to avoid this in the future?

Pay a professional smile






Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jan 15 13 05:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Undead Threads
Posts: 574
Greenville, South Carolina, US


Well, this thread made me add the number of shots models receive to my profile.
Jan 15 13 05:23 am  Link  Quote 
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