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12last
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Raoul Isidro Images
Posts: 5,509
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Jan 14 13 08:55 pm  Link  Quote 
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ontherocks
Posts: 22,059
Salem, Oregon, US


that guy is so incredibly lame. just the lamest lame-ass lamey person ever. lol. you suck lance. i bet she left because she figured that out, too. and it serves you right if the doping caused your cancer. why even put the guys out on bicycles. just let the chemists fight it out in the lab. stupid guy. stupid sport.

and oprah's even lamer for having him on. the guy should be shunned. and to think i thought there was a chance (small one) that he was innocent.
Jan 14 13 08:56 pm  Link  Quote 
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John Sweet
Posts: 190
Denver, Colorado, US


It truly is the sport, not Lance. Every single person out there is cheating.

I don't mind them cleaning it up, but to vilify Lance as being the best of the cheaters seems kind of silly. I bet, once they can truly clean it up, that the average times for the Tour segments that they repeat will be substantially higher.
Jan 14 13 09:04 pm  Link  Quote 
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ontherocks
Posts: 22,059
Salem, Oregon, US


i agree but he made such a big deal out of denying it (most drug tested athlete ever) and defending himself and pretending he was a good guy when he was as dirty as the rest. any parent with a kid who looked up to him should be after him with their pitchforks. if he had come clean early on and just said "everybody was doing it" then i might still have some respect for him. instead he took the money the same way tiger did. americans kind of suck. too much greed. too much about the superstar. too much about "well, i have a foundation so it's ok that i'm a scumbag and took the money under false pretenses"

they should just wipe the tour de france out of existence. like it never happened. like i wish lance had never happened.

John Sweet wrote:
It truly is the sport, not Lance. Every single person out there is cheating.

Jan 14 13 09:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Dead account
Posts: 1,291
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Seeing as I don't personally follow the sport, I wasn't as shocked and disappointed as most people who looked up to the guy or who took interest in his charity work. Rather, it pissed me off how he was labelled as a champion for defeating his cancer.

What about the surgeons? The nurses? They deserve far more credit than just the guy who sat there taking his pills and following their instructions. I hate when the patient is given more praise than the ones who treated them. The cancer he had wasn't even as complex and life threatening as many others, there are many, many people who over come it with the help of specialists daily. Not to diminish the fact that people who do survive cancer are special human beings, but seriously, labeling this guy as the champion? It just seems rude.
Jan 14 13 09:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


i have no problem with athletes doping.  they know the risks, they know the rewards.  in actuality it is no different than seeking excellence through whatever means is possible. 

to chastise an athlete for doping then the world shouldn't embrace other achievement such as the rolling stones or countless other bands who created some of their best works while being junked up.

excellence comes at a cost for all those who seek it.  there is no cost for those sitting on the sidelines who complain how it is attained.  it is not about being fair, it's only about pushing the limits of greatness however that can be done.
Jan 14 13 09:21 pm  Link  Quote 
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ontherocks
Posts: 22,059
Salem, Oregon, US


the cynic in me thinks it was because everybody was making money off this guy and it was in their best interest to make him into a god in order to get more donations or whatever.

Mary Thomson wrote:
Not to diminish the fact that people who do survive cancer are special human beings, but seriously, labeling this guy as the champion? It just seems rude.

Jan 14 13 09:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,059
Salem, Oregon, US


yeah but the rock guys don't try to deny it or cover it up. they embrace it for what it is.

they really need more foolproof testing if they want to keep sports clean. or maybe they should just give up and say "anything goes" and give lance his titles back (although maybe his lab guys are really the ones who deserve the medals).

291 wrote:
to chastise an athlete for doping then the world shouldn't embrace other achievement such as the rolling stones or countless other bands who created some of their best works while being junked up.

Jan 14 13 09:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


twoharts wrote:
yeah but the rock guys don't try to deny it or cover it up. they embrace it for what it is.

what difference does it make?  better yet, why should there be a difference at all?

the fact is, it's all bullshit.  remember that bloody sock shown countless times when shilling was pitching in the world series?  he was shot up to the hilt with pain killers.  was that not a performance enhancing drug effect?

Jan 14 13 09:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,059
Salem, Oregon, US


well no one ever said sports was logical! still i don't like people who lie or pretend to be something they're not or let the world build them into being this god among men when really they are just pumped full of the finest drugs money can buy.

if they allow anything goes then isn't that unfair to athletes who want a healthy lifestyle?

291 wrote:
the fact is, it's all bullshit.  remember that bloody sock shown countless times when shilling was pitching in the world series?  he was shot up to the hilt with pain killers.  was that not a performance enhancing drug effect?

Jan 14 13 09:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


twoharts wrote:
if they allow anything goes then isn't that unfair to athletes who want a healthy lifestyle?

no.  there is no guarantee peds will elevate one without natural born talent.

Jan 14 13 09:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Let There Be Light
Posts: 7,657
Los Angeles, California, US


Mary Thomson wrote:
What about the surgeons? The nurses? They deserve far more credit than just the guy who sat there taking his pills and following their instructions. I hate when the patient is given more praise than the ones who treated them. The cancer he had wasn't even as complex and life threatening as many others, there are many, many people who over come it with the help of specialists daily. Not to diminish the fact that people who do survive cancer are special human beings, but seriously, labeling this guy as the champion? It just seems rude.

Before his string of wins in the Tour de France Armstrong always credited his survival to "good medicine, good doctors, and good technology."

His cancer wasn't life threatening? By time Armstrong was diagnosed the testicular cancer was at an advanced stage and had spread to his lungs and brain.  Doctors gave him a 40% chance of survival.  He underwent three surgeries including two brain surgeries and several rounds of chemotherapy to eradicate the cancer.   

Go ahead and hate the guy if you want but don't change the facts to fit your opinion.

Jan 14 13 10:24 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
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Robb Mann
Posts: 9,502
Baltimore, Maryland, US


The way people are reacting, its like they think ANYONE who doped like Lance did could have won Tour De France. Guess what, the Doping gave him a small edge. Its still an incredible feat.

Yes, he is an asshat for the way he destroyed the lives of those who rightly accused him of cheating.

And he made us care about cycling. He mainstreamed the sport.

In the end, i guess he's just a dumb jock?
Jan 15 13 02:35 am  Link  Quote 
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Art Silva
Posts: 8,216
Santa Barbara, California, US


The funny thing is that right now I'm sitting in a coffee shop and three attorneys are talking about this same thing and they are all saying that they would prosecute Lance to the Supreme Court or what ever, while the rest of us listening are saying to ourselves BFD!

Goes to show the mentality of the public opinion on matters that has nothing to do with them directly.
Jan 15 13 07:27 am  Link  Quote 
Model
-Nicole-
Posts: 19,170
Madison, Wisconsin, US


Not that I really care about anything related to Lance Armstrong, but I'd just like to say fuck him. He went through all the trouble denying shit. I can't stand a liar.
Jan 15 13 07:31 am  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
Chain Reaction
Posts: 514
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


twoharts wrote:
that guy is so incredibly lame. just the lamest lame-ass lamey person ever. lol. you suck lance.

Come on. Stop holding back. Tell us how you REALLY feel. tongue

I honestly couldn't give a flying rats ass one way or the other. I think giving someone millions to ride a bicycle is assinine anyway. Many professional althetes and athletics are way overpaid for playing a "game" and the endorsements it entails. But if they can make a fortune doing it, more power to 'em.

Jan 15 13 07:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
T-Sun Photography
Posts: 519
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Chain Reaction wrote:

Come on. Stop holding back. Tell us how you REALLY feel. tongue

I honestly couldn't give a flying rats ass one way or the other. I think giving someone millions to ride a bicycle is assinine anyway. Many professional althetes and athletics are way overpaid for playing a "game" and the endorsements it entails. But if they can make a fortune doing it, more power to 'em.

LOL!  Ditto!

Jan 15 13 07:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 17,574
Albany, New York, US


Sorry but I lost my outrage in athletes doping when the Mitchell Report was released.

Personally, I think every sport should take the IOC approach. Take your samples & then keep them for 7 or 8 years because they might not be able to catch you now but we can still get you if it tests positive for the future.
Jan 15 13 07:43 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Koryn
Posts: 34,584
Boston, Massachusetts, US


John Sweet wrote:
It truly is the sport, not Lance. Every single person out there is cheating.

I don't mind them cleaning it up, but to vilify Lance as being the best of the cheaters seems kind of silly. I bet, once they can truly clean it up, that the average times for the Tour segments that they repeat will be substantially higher.

This ^^^^

Jan 15 13 11:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Compass Rose Studios
Posts: 15,918
Portland, Oregon, US


We love to put our heroes on ridiculous pedestals almost as much as we love seeing them fall. 

But we also love a comeback story.

So stay tuned for Lance Armstrong part III.
Jan 15 13 11:55 am  Link  Quote 
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Dark Shadows
Posts: 2,269
Miami, Florida, US


Bradley Wiggins won the Tour in 2012 without doping, and Cadel Evans won the Tour in 2011 without doping. Those saying that you 'have' to dope to compete, or that the entire peleton was doping, are just plain wrong.
Jan 15 13 12:22 pm  Link  Quote 
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PhillipM
Posts: 6,087
Martin, Tennessee, US


Yawwwnnnnn
Jan 15 13 12:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Compass Rose Studios
Posts: 15,918
Portland, Oregon, US


Dark Shadows wrote:
Bradley Wiggins won the Tour in 2012 without doping, and Cadel Evans won the Tour in 2011 without doping. Those saying that you 'have' to dope to compete, or that the entire peleton was doping, are just plain wrong.

That or nobody's doping now.

Jan 15 13 12:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 1,974
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Robb Mann wrote:
Yes, he is an asshat for the way he destroyed the lives of those who rightly accused him of cheating.

THIS is what bothers me most, the way he lied about it and caused others to look like liars in the process.

I don't care if cyclists dope, or if other athletes take performance enhancing drugs. Just don't lie when you get caught!

Jan 15 13 12:40 pm  Link  Quote 
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Dark Shadows
Posts: 2,269
Miami, Florida, US


Compass Rose Studios wrote:
That or nobody's doping now.

People will always dope to try to gain an unfair advantage. A few get caught every year, a lot more slip through the cracks. Most dopers are not caught by testing, they are caught by traditional police investigations.

The person above who said you can't turn an average person into a Tour de France winner just by doping, is absolutely correct. However, the time difference between the winner and the last place person in the Tour de France is usually only something like 1mph, so the edge it gives you is pretty significant when the top guys are so closely matched.

I thought gold medal cyclist Nicole Cooke put it pretty well:
"Hamilton denied doping before confessing on the CBS news program “60 Minutes” and again in his award-winning book “The Secret Race.”

Tyler Hamilton will make more money from his book describing how he cheated than I will make in all my years of honest labor,” said the 29-year-old Cooke, who won road race gold at the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

“When Lance cries on Oprah later this week and she passes him a tissue, spare a thought for all of those genuine people who walked away with no reward — just shattered dreams. Each one of them is worth a thousand Lances,” said Cooke.

“I do despair that the sport will ever clean itself up when rewards of stealing are greater than riding clean. If that remains the case, the temptation for those with no morals will always be too great.”

Jan 15 13 01:00 pm  Link  Quote 
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Looknsee Photography
Posts: 20,428
Portland, Oregon, US


I believe that we've made huge advances in medicine in the past couple of decades.  We know tons more now than we did in the 80s, 70s, 40s, 20s. 

Think about Babe Ruth -- arguably the most famous baseball player of all time.  He was big & talented.  But he smoked and drank and etc.  Think about Mikey Mantle -- he had a career ending knee injury -- today, he might have been out for a few months.

So, today we know more about nutrition, sports medicine, training, etc.

So, my question -- where does the line get drawn?  Why is kale acceptable while steroids aren't?  Why isn't "Tommy John surgery" considered cheating?

So, to me, every athlete tries to optimize their performance; I just don't know where the line should be drawn.
Jan 15 13 01:30 pm  Link  Quote 
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Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,208
Buena Park, California, US


291 wrote:
i have no problem with athletes doping.  they know the risks, they know the rewards.  in actuality it is no different than seeking excellence through whatever means is possible. 

to chastise an athlete for doping then the world shouldn't embrace other achievement such as the rolling stones or countless other bands who created some of their best works while being junked up.

excellence comes at a cost for all those who seek it.  there is no cost for those sitting on the sidelines who complain how it is attained.  it is not about being fair, it's only about pushing the limits of greatness however that can be done.

You're not a competitive athlete are you?  Or ever have been?

it's the equivalent of cheating on taxes.  It may not directly impact YOU, but it has an impact and hurts most everyone.

Jan 15 13 01:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Compass Rose Studios
Posts: 15,918
Portland, Oregon, US


Dark Shadows wrote:
People will always dope to try to gain an unfair advantage. A few get caught every year, a lot more slip through the cracks. Most dopers are not caught by testing, they are caught by traditional police investigations.

The person above who said you can't turn an average person into a Tour de France winner just by doping, is absolutely correct. However, the time difference between the winner and the last place person in the Tour de France is usually only something like 1mph, so the edge it gives you is pretty significant when the top guys are so closely matched.

I thought gold medal cyclist Nicole Cooke put it pretty well:
"Hamilton denied doping before confessing on the CBS news program “60 Minutes” and again in his award-winning book “The Secret Race.”

Tyler Hamilton will make more money from his book describing how he cheated than I will make in all my years of honest labor,” said the 29-year-old Cooke, who won road race gold at the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

“When Lance cries on Oprah later this week and she passes him a tissue, spare a thought for all of those genuine people who walked away with no reward — just shattered dreams. Each one of them is worth a thousand Lances,” said Cooke.

“I do despair that the sport will ever clean itself up when rewards of stealing are greater than riding clean. If that remains the case, the temptation for those with no morals will always be too great.”

I meant that after watching Armstrong's fall from grace (which while solidifying this year has been building for what?  5 years already), I'll be significantly fewer teams risked it.  Especially in 2012.

Jan 15 13 01:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


291 wrote:
i have no problem with athletes doping.  they know the risks, they know the rewards.  in actuality it is no different than seeking excellence through whatever means is possible. 

to chastise an athlete for doping then the world shouldn't embrace other achievement such as the rolling stones or countless other bands who created some of their best works while being junked up.

excellence comes at a cost for all those who seek it.  there is no cost for those sitting on the sidelines who complain how it is attained.  it is not about being fair, it's only about pushing the limits of greatness however that can be done.
Christopher Hartman wrote:
You're not a competitive athlete are you?  Or ever have been?

it's the equivalent of cheating on taxes.  It may not directly impact YOU, but it has an impact and hurts most everyone.

the fact is, i have a championship ring from minor league baseball.  your statement toward me makes me think you've never been in a professional sports locker room or clubhouse.

not even close to cheating on taxes.  two horses, two colors.  although, there is a great deal of hypocrisy in how tax codes are applied.

"Or because I’ve long believed that what athletes put in their bodies should be a matter of personal conscience, not police actions — when we demand unhealthy, even death-defying extremes of them for our entertainment, it seems the height of hypocrisy to then dictate what’s good for them."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/ot … story.html

sally jenkins, the only sportswriter that gets it.  with the tv flooded with viagra commercials during sporting events and athletes being shot up with pain-killers, we live in a world of performance enhancement. 

chris carter of nfl fame gloated this past monday on the espn morning "mike and mike show" how he needed pain killing injections in the tunnel before running out on the field.  was his performance not enhanced?  were fans not enthralled with his effort that was made possible through drugs?

there's the crux.  drugs are undefined toward performance enhancement.  drugs are drugs, including pain-killers. 

i could care less about lance, or others doping for that matter.  let them juice so we can witness the thrill of their victories and the agony of their defeats.  that's their life and why we fans are drawn to them like a moth to a flame.

Jan 15 13 09:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photoimager
Posts: 4,734
Stoke-on-Trent, England, United Kingdom


Since the programmes had not been broadcast by the start of this thread the title is potentially misleading. We do not yet KNOW what he said in the interview. Even when it is broadcast, you can be sure it won't be the full two and a half hours worth.
Jan 16 13 12:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Erick Prince
Posts: 3,457
Austin, Texas, US


Dark Shadows wrote:
Bradley Wiggins won the Tour in 2012 without doping, and Cadel Evans won the Tour in 2011 without doping. Those saying that you 'have' to dope to compete, or that the entire peleton was doping, are just plain wrong.

ORRRRR they are doping and haven't been caught yet. Remember, Lance NEVER popped a dirty sample and the only reasons he's been caught is because he was ratted out by his teammates. I'm not saying they are dirty but don't assume. That entire sport is dirty and has been for some time.

Jan 16 13 01:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
You Can Call Me Pierre
Posts: 709
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


Does Oprah pay her guests for interviews?  She will be generating a lot of traffic to whitewash his reputation.
Jan 16 13 04:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art Silva
Posts: 8,216
Santa Barbara, California, US


Seriously, do we REALLY care about this whole scandals? Will it effect our lives? Will our taxes go up over it?... No, it's entertainment, its cycling, that's all it is for most of us.
Jan 16 13 07:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andialu
Posts: 14,029
San Pedro, California, US


Art Silva Photography wrote:
Seriously, do we REALLY care about this whole scandals? Will it effect our lives? Will our taxes go up over it?... No, it's entertainment, its cycling, that's all it is for most of us.

I can't say that I care. I think some people take sport way too seriously.

Jan 16 13 07:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
udor
Posts: 21,005
New York, New York, US


John Sweet wrote:
It truly is the sport, not Lance. Every single person out there is cheating.

Right... and if we follow the unofficial practices of that sport,... we can probably easily say that everybody, or most participants on that high level are doping etc.

So... if he won, doped, among other dopers... he still won.

If they take his titles away... the next in line would get the title, right (not sure about that technicality), but the next in line, and his next in line and every other one in the downline doped... so... taking the title away doesn't really make sense.

Seems that this is how the cookie crumbles...

Jan 16 13 08:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,208
Buena Park, California, US


291 wrote:

the fact is, i have a championship ring from minor league baseball.  your statement toward me makes me think you've never been in a professional sports locker room or clubhouse.

not even close to cheating on taxes.  two horses, two colors.  although, there is a great deal of hypocrisy in how tax codes are applied.

"Or because I’ve long believed that what athletes put in their bodies should be a matter of personal conscience, not police actions — when we demand unhealthy, even death-defying extremes of them for our entertainment, it seems the height of hypocrisy to then dictate what’s good for them."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/ot … story.html

sally jenkins, the only sportswriter that gets it.  with the tv flooded with viagra commercials during sporting events and athletes being shot up with pain-killers, we live in a world of performance enhancement. 

chris carter of nfl fame gloated this past monday on the espn morning "mike and mike show" how he needed pain killing injections in the tunnel before running out on the field.  was his performance not enhanced?  were fans not enthralled with his effort that was made possible through drugs?

there's the crux.  drugs are undefined toward performance enhancement.  drugs are drugs, including pain-killers. 

i could care less about lance, or others doping for that matter.  let them juice so we can witness the thrill of their victories and the agony of their defeats.  that's their life and why we fans are drawn to them like a moth to a flame.

WHILE LEGAL, I have no problem..though I'd rather they didn't. I'm impressed by what people can do through natural training and practice.  I'm less impressed by consuming designer drugs allows you to exceed what you could do naturally. As you said, they know the risks.  IF ILLEGAL, then I do have a problem and consider it cheating. I do not care if they know the risks.  It's cheating.  It's bad sportsmanship.  I have no respect for those that turn to doping to enhance their performance.

As for pain killers, I don't have an issue as they do not make you better.  They only allow you to perform.

What do you think of corked bats?  Let's upgrade MLB to aluminum bats.  If college players can handle it, the Major Leagues can, right?  Probably safer than steroids too.

Perhaps the championship you earned was possible because of players on your team cheating and that's why you don't mind?  The glory is worth it in the end.  I don't respect those kinds of athletes.

Jan 16 13 08:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Sweet
Posts: 190
Denver, Colorado, US


Dark Shadows wrote:
Bradley Wiggins won the Tour in 2012 without doping, and Cadel Evans won the Tour in 2011 without doping. Those saying that you 'have' to dope to compete, or that the entire peleton was doping, are just plain wrong.

Hahahaha!

You know this how? Are you a deity?

As the Lance case has demonstrated, you can't prove a negative. He was tested 1.4 billion times and never caught. It was the testimony of others, years later, that did him in. It's a little too soon to be making these kinds of proclamations about the sanctity of Evans or Wiggins, don't you think?

The testing technology improves every year, but it seems the cheaters manage to stay ahead of them every year.

Personally, I think they should just allow PEDs and let the athletes assume whatever risks they want to assume. It's not like they couldn't be hurt flying off a cliff in the Alps.

Jan 16 13 08:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Edward
Posts: 2,462
Dallas, Texas, US


Oh Jiminey,

(See I didn't say aw Fuck this time).

The guy still had to get up at four in the morning, push, and push hard, when it hurt. Ride a bike like nobody here can.

C'mon, he won the damn thing more than once.

There was so much stuff going on, the doping was such a small part.
Jan 16 13 09:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GK photo
Posts: 26,717
Laguna Beach, California, US


John Edward wrote:
There was so much stuff going on, the doping was such a small part.

you are absolutely correct. the abject conniving, bribing, bullying, intimidation and overall diabolical way in which he conducted himself during his riding career is the real story.

i'll go ahead and assume a large number of people in that sport cheat to some degree, the same as they have--and still do--in others. that can be tossed out the window. what you're left with is a very cynical, manipulative douche, who took a single-minded obsession and swallowed an entire team (including physicians) into his myth. it's almost comical now how easy this was to trace. it's fucking ridiculous that he wasn't caught during the first tour.

i'm glad he was able to attach his name to a foundation that has clearly done some good works, but there are thousands of cases of psychopaths throughout history that have done similar things. anyone ever seen the commercials where chevron is saving the environment?

c'mon, man. nothing here is new, other than this particular participant.

Jan 16 13 09:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Skydancer Photos
Posts: 21,882
Santa Cruz, California, US


I think is the most compelling point of view I've read so far on this story
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8852 … tory-lying
Jan 17 13 10:10 am  Link  Quote 
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