I'm looking to add one of these two cameras to my bag this year and had a few questions. This will be my first venture into the MF world so I know I have a new learning curving ahead.
First with either of these cameras would using a Sekonic L-358 be a good choice for metering? I read before I can use a Pocket Wizard (with sync cord) on the RB67 but on the 645 can I use it on the hotshoe? I understand that if using a leaf shutter lens I have to go sync cord but wanted to make sure this is the only reason. Does anyone also know the sync speed for using speedlights or studio strobes on the 645? It's my understanding that on the leaf shutter lenses of the RB67 it is 1/500th, is this right?
Lastly i know the RB67's 6x7 negatives are going to be better resolution but are they a huge difference from the 645? Any information would be appreciated and if there is anything else I should know going in as a newbie.
6x7 neg is 2.7x larger than 645 and 645 is 2.7x 35mm (8x10crop). That is a hugh difference.
645 sych is around a 1/60th sec if you are not using a LS lens.
My preference would be the RZ67 as the RZ lenses are dlightly better and you can use RB lenses on it as well.
Photosbycj wrote: I'm looking to add one of these two cameras to my bag this year and had a few questions. This will be my first venture into the MF world so I know I have a new learning curving ahead.
First with either of these cameras would using a Sekonic L-358 be a good choice for metering? I read before I can use a Pocket Wizard (with sync cord) on the RB67 but on the 645 can I use it on the hotshoe? I understand that if using a leaf shutter lens I have to go sync cord but wanted to make sure this is the only reason. Does anyone also know the sync speed for using speedlights or studio strobes on the 645? It's my understanding that on the leaf shutter lenses of the RB67 it is 1/500th, is this right?
Lastly i know the RB67's 6x7 negatives are going to be better resolution but are they a huge difference from the 645? Any information would be appreciated and if there is anything else I should know going in as a newbie.
I don't know answers or have opinions for many of your questions, but I can offer a little:
The Sekonic L-358 is okay, but I personally prefer spot meters, especially if one practices any variant of The Zone System. The controls are a little clunky (sometimes you have to hold a button down while turning a dial), but you can get used to it. Further, I don't know if you have to use a sync cord to get the meter to fire your strobes -- it's amazingly handy if the meter can fire strobes with a radio transmission.
6x4.5 versus 6x7 -- I started with a Bronica 6x4.5 camera. Advantages: it's not that much bigger/heavier than a high end SLR, and with 15 exposures per 120 roll, it's easy to divide a roll into 3 equal strips (for storage). But I eventually moved on to Bronica's 6x7 camera: Advantages: yes, the larger negative makes a big, big difference, especially if you have tight (~Zone System) controls over exposure & development; disadvantages: that's a heavier camera (requiring its own significant camera bag), its lenses are more expensive, and it produces 10 exposures in a 120 roll, making it difficult to divide into 3 or 4 strips for storage. But for me, the quality boost was worth it.
I'm not familiar enough with either camera to know if they can fire Pocket Wizards, but having started to use Wizards, I won't go back to sync cords. I also don't know your camera's sync speed -- the Bronica's were excellent (1/250 or 1/500 -- I forget).
Hector Fernandez
Posts: 1,146
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico
I really dislike the two moments of the RB. One movement for film transport and other movement to rise the mirror and cock the shutter. Besides that they are heavy.
And I assisted 5 years in a row in a place with RBs so more or less I know them; as a positive note they are built as tanks.
I think a Hasselblad, or a Bronica SQ are better options for locations, street, studio. Both have backs for 6x4.5 and both can be used with digital backs (silverstri does an adaptor for the Broni) and they have shutter in the lenses, the Mamiya 645 has a plane focal shutter and with that in mind I better get a Pentacon Six and use the über excellent Zeiss Jena optics.
First determine which Mamiya 645 you're interested in---as the specs vary greatly between different models. For example, the AF/AFD series flash sync is 1/125th. Recent generations of the Mam/Phase 645 with DF body can sync up to 1/1600th with the right digital back.
It's been too long since I had an old RB, but I definitely preferred the RZ body. Just as big and clumsy, but easier to focus. I doubt the step up to the RZ would break the bank, but I think is ultimately a better investment. Btw, the RZ is still in production and supported.
I own both cameras and both are very different animals.
The 645 is not much different than holding a very large 35mm SLR (think Like a Nikon F5). It's bulkier, but it can be done pretty easily, especially if you buy a grip. Also, though you will not necessarily have a leaf shutter you will more than likely have faster lenses. The fastest I have for my 645 is f/1.9 which lets in a lot of available light and gives a razor thin depth of field. It can be a very nice effect when you want it.
The RB67 on the other hand is gigantic and gives a gigantic negative as a result. It also has a lot more moving parts that all most be in sync for the camera to work. It's really almost like working with a 4x5...almost.
Keep in mind with the RB67 your lenses are going to be a lot slower. F/3.5 on the fast end, and many of the lenses only open up to f/4.5. Every lens for the RB67 is a leaf shutter though so you will have more flexibility with flash sync though.
Between the two, I find myself using the RB67 more than the 645. The 6x7 negative is a dream to print in the darkroom and i really like the bellows focusing of the RB67. I can get nice and close to my subjects and really fill in the frame when I want to. To me that is one aspect that really sets this camera apart from other medium format systems like the Hasselblad and Bronica cameras.
I also don't mind the slower work flow, in fact I prefer it.
It would be worth your time to look for an RZ67 instead too. Though I prefer the RB67 (all mechanical, no batteries, few plastic parts) if I were shopping today I would just go with whichever one I find a better deal on. Both cameras are going to have identical results.
Bottom line, the 645, RB67, and RZ67 are all great and worthy cameras. These days you can find a good quality rig for so cheap you may end up like me and eventually just buy both.
Patrickth
Posts: 10,291
Bellingham, Washington, US
Some general observations:
Lot of people recommending Bronica, but the truth is, many are just plain worn out and hard to find parts for unless you get lucky.
I have 5 Mamiya 645's and they are a comfortable camera, reasonably priced. I prefer them when outdoors and using Medium format unless I decide to use my Pentax 67ii. I have an adapter for Mamiya lens to go on my Nikon film cameras and it gives a nice creamy look to it.
The RB Pro S is a great camera. I have used it for street shooting, but it is really a studio camera for most people.
You ought to take a look at Pentax 67ii. There are many things to like about it.
Light Writer
Posts: 18,234
Hayward, California, US
I have a Mamiya 645 and an RB67.
The RB is heavy and really wants a tripod, it shines in the studio where the environment is more controlled, and things are reproducible. The two move cock-wind becomes second nature with practice.
The 645 has more of the characteristics of a 35mm/DSLR, faster shooting, lighter, more frames per roll.
I shoot large format, so for me, lugging a tripod and the RB into the field is not a big deal, but I suspect many would find it odious.
The question to ask is: How are you going to use the camera? If you are used to walking around the landscape with a 35mm/DSLR, you may find it awkward hand-holding the RB, and the 645 might be easier. If you want to shoot in the studio use a tripod then maybe the RB will meet your needs.
One consideration is how fast and how much you shoot. You'll get more frames per roll with the 645. Having several pre-loaded backs really helps for fast shooting: shoot a roll, replace the back, repeat; until you run out then load the backs and begin again.
As far as metering, any meter which suits your style is fine. The technique's the same for either camera.
Light Writer
Posts: 18,234
Hayward, California, US
Andrew Kaiser wrote: ...
The 6x7 negative is a dream to print in the darkroom and i really like the bellows focusing of the RB67. I can get nice and close to my subjects and really fill in the frame when I want to. To me that is one aspect that really sets this camera apart from other medium format systems like the Hasselblad and Bronica cameras
...
Yes the bellows is fantastic. You must remember to compensate the exposure for the bellows extension, and there's a guide on the bellows housing.
Wideviews
Posts: 207
Aberdeen, Scotland, United Kingdom
I have a RB proS and a Mamiya 645 super, - if I had to go for just one, it would be the RB, -it's slower and heavier- but for my style that's no problem. The 127mm standard lens on the RB is great being about 60mm in 35mm terms. However if you don't want bulk the 645 is so much more compact.
I just like using the RB, in fact I like both, so it's a hard call, but for me the RB wins out. The RB is more of a professional camera, while my 645 was much more aimed at the enthusiast.
I doubt if there is really much real world difference in quality between the two. - If you enlarge your own prints check you enlarger copes with 67- but most MF enlargers do.
I have worked with both camera's, and the quality difference is obvious. The RB is undestructable and delivers beautiful negs and transparencies. If 10 on one film is not enough, there in a 220 film back with double that number. Contrary to what I see mostly, I used the RB67 outside the studio even more. Did airshows with it (static show) and 1/400 is enough for helicopters... landscapes have fantastic detail. I carried a bag with 65, 90, 180, 360mm and tripod. The attainable results made it easy to carry. But then I might be a fanatic, for I carried a 4x5" over long distances through wild county, before the RB. Never had a problem with it, works outside in winter, fully mechanical.
Why RB over RZ ??
RZ has hotsohoe to fire PW no cords
I got my RZ body a few years ago from KEH for $150 in excellent condition
Huge difference over 6x7 to 645
Hey everyone sorry I stepped out with my little one (little father/daughter park time). First thank you for all the great information and polite responses.
To answer a few questions. I plan to use which ever camera for professional work as well as personal project work. My goal this year is to shoot mostly seniors and weddings. I'm planning to approach my weddings more like Jerry Ghionis with a glamour/natural approach. I will be using a combination of a D700/D4 for my weddings but wanted to bring in something like a medium format to step up the quality of products I offer my brides. I don't plan to use a MF all day just some during the getting ready stages and during some formal shots or first looks type thing. Once the ceremony and reception get going I will be back with the DSLR's for 95% of the shooting with maybe some detail work with the MF. That is why I was wondering about pocket wizards and sync speeds cause I like getting creative with lighting once my safety shots are out of the way.
As for the RB and not the RZ is mainly build as I've heard how durable the RB bodies can be. Not that the RZ probably isn't but I've only heard people praise it over the RZ. I'm not 100% concerned with the number of shots as I'm almost positive I'll only be taking 20-30 shots max with the camera through out the day. I knew the RB's lenses were small aperture but I wasn't concerned cause I was going to use lighting. However you've all given me some information to think about and more things to research. Thank you.
I’ve owned both 645 and RB bodies from Mamiya. Both are excellent systems with great build quality, modular design for customization and very good glass. You can’t go wrong with either one. The former was sold and replaced by a Bronica 645 system (simply more bang for the buck), the latter by a Pentax 6x7.
As others have said, if you get a grip, the 645 really does handle much like a big 35mm SLR or your Nikons. The RB, not so much. In fact, not at all, in my opinion. Bellows focusing, different balance point, cock and wind, it’s held differently in the hands.
All to say that it’s more than simply negative size; they really are different systems. Only you can decide where the advantages and drawbacks of one versus the other fit with what and how you shoot. I’ll make the recommendation that I almost always present: buy one basic setup of each, then sell the one that doesn’t match your needs. I honestly don’t think there’s a shortcut for personal experience here.
I'm going to join in on the chorus and say "RB67" (Or RZ67)
It's dramatically different from a smaller camera in ways that most 645's aren't quite as much. You might think that it ought to be kept on a tripod in a studio, but I've taken it snowshoeing, biking, hiking, partying, etc. and it's fine. And, you wouldn't think it, but I've been able to take some great drag-the-shutter shots in low-light situations without lots of shake. Big thing about the RB67 is that you end up with all the lenses using leaf shutters, and that changes the way you approach things. Also, the lovely rotating back will re-teach you composition.
I've generally just used a digital camera as a 'polaroid' to judge exposure and then transferred the settings over to my RB67.
Also, the bigger negatives scan much better on a flatbed scanner, even if 645 would be 'good enough' on a drum scanner.
the RB/RZ are heavy, but solid, and don't readily lend themselves to a lot of hand-held shooting; function better on a tripod ...
(i shoot a lot on-location and move about quite a bit physically when working)
... although from the sake of practicality none of these cameras are realistic anymore; i held on to my 645 the longest but digital eventually just became the more cost-effective choice.
Thanks again for the info and suggestions. I think I'm going to lean toward a RB/RZ 67 and if I have spare change I'll grab a 645 and see how I like it in comparison. For what I plan to use it for do y'all recommend the prism or is the waist view more than enough?
I got the RB67 proS and looking at the view finders is so cool you see all in 3D unfortunately the pictures don't look as you see it in the view finder.
I have had both the RZ and the RB
I do not regret a moment of my decison to change and change my RB for the RZ
The 110 f.28 lens is a dream and you ll use it 90% of the time.
I am abusing the camera, I shoot in salty water, I hike into forests with it hanging from my neck, and it has not complained a bit in those 3 years now, the occasional ding aside.
That said, you ll notice with the RB that sometimes things go wrong with the double action needed to cock the shutter and forward the film, I had often double exposures that way. Hate it, yet one of my best images happened this way hahaha
Its more lightweight to the RB, ok the RB is built like a tank, granted, but also the looks on the people were like, this looks old in a negative way. The RZ on the contrary looks modern, you can use it with a digital back, the lenses are superb and only try to have spare batteries with you, just in case. They usually last 6-12 months depending the use. Many images in my port are shot with either the RB or the RZ, I love 6x7 format and the negative is great, 6x45 is more limited regarding print size and boke too, due to the smaller negative size. If you get a 6x7 and a 250mm f4.5 lens, you will not believe your eyes withg the results on portraits. Its like large format
ANd I use it handheld, till 1/60th you re fine, no need for tripods etc, just exercise your forarms!
Nyctiphaes wrote: I have had both the RZ and the RB
I do not regret a moment of my decison to change and change my RB for the RZ
The 110 f.28 lens is a dream and you ll use it 90% of the time.
I am abusing the camera, I shoot in salty water, I hike into forests with it hanging from my neck, and it has not complained a bit in those 3 years now, the occasional ding aside.
That said, you ll notice with the RB that sometimes things go wrong with the double action needed to cock the shutter and forward the film, I had often double exposures that way. Hate it, yet one of my best images happened this way hahaha
Its more lightweight to the RB, ok the RB is built like a tank, granted, but also the looks on the people were like, this looks old in a negative way. The RZ on the contrary looks modern, you can use it with a digital back, the lenses are superb and only try to have spare batteries with you, just in case. They usually last 6-12 months depending the use. Many images in my port are shot with either the RB or the RZ, I love 6x7 format and the negative is great, 6x45 is more limited regarding print size and boke too, due to the smaller negative size. If you get a 6x7 and a 250mm f4.5 lens, you will not believe your eyes withg the results on portraits. Its like large format
ANd I use it handheld, till 1/60th you re fine, no need for tripods etc, just exercise your forarms!
Thanks for all that info on lenses and everything else. The RZ is sounding more attractive with the digital back option down the road. Time to start shopping around lol.
Photosbycj wrote: I'm looking to add one of these two cameras to my bag this year and had a few questions. This will be my first venture into the MF world so I know I have a new learning curving ahead.
First with either of these cameras would using a Sekonic L-358 be a good choice for metering? I read before I can use a Pocket Wizard (with sync cord) on the RB67 but on the 645 can I use it on the hotshoe? I understand that if using a leaf shutter lens I have to go sync cord but wanted to make sure this is the only reason. Does anyone also know the sync speed for using speedlights or studio strobes on the 645? It's my understanding that on the leaf shutter lenses of the RB67 it is 1/500th, is this right?
Lastly i know the RB67's 6x7 negatives are going to be better resolution but are they a huge difference from the 645? Any information would be appreciated and if there is anything else I should know going in as a newbie.
Used these cameras for years, my other cameras were 8x10 and 4x5 view. Each has their reasons.. Of all the RB67 was my choice and I had owned at least 6 of them... Sturdy, and in all those years before digital.. never had to repair a single one... Of the cameras, that failed our studio, Hassy, Fuji, 645, and one RZ. One of the RB's is still being used by a photographer in Tn..
Flsh sync is something you should study and make up your mind what you wish to go with.. Another camera that was very useful. was the Pentax 6x7, it was my personal sports camera, because of the lenses.. Neg was the fact that it was focal plane shutter.. an thus slow sync speed...
On the Sekonic... Be aware that some older models like the L508 don't take the chip for PW's and don't provide the percentage of flash indicator. If you want the spot meter stepping up to the L758 might be worth the cost. I have the L358 and can't live without it.
The RB's are quirky and slightly less than the size of your average mailbox. The absolute incredible price/quality and rotating back was what sealed the deal for me... and the negs are awesome.
I've shot Bronica GS1 and found it a quality setup and had no issues, but it has no rotating back.Tilting a 6x7 gets old quick. The rotating back and available accessories made me lean to the Rb.
I have been considering a 645 option and would go with the ETR without qualms. I've shot square format with a Hassy and found it not so much to my liking.
As to my PM to you, I'm going to keep it and do landscape and family group shots.
RB67 Pro-s vets... do some have a hot shoe?
My PW's raise all sorts of beeping hell when I use the shoe and try and attach to the sync port on the 90mmKL. When I pull it off the shoe it triggers the flash remotely... so I generally just hang the PW from the focus knob. Is that what most of you do?
You mentioned doing group shots and the like for weddings.
Something that might be a deal breaker is using the Mirror Lock Up function.
I pretty much use the MLU on the RB for almost all landscape shots would think Mirror Lock Up would be essential to you... and I too would like to use it for portraits.
However, I find for some reason it impossible to trip the shutter when PW is sync'd to the lens... Any help from the RB vets on this? I can't figure this out...
Even with the few rolls I've shot in the few months I've owned the RB, everything sort of has this step by step process that becomes second nature.
And they make 645 backs for the RB
One word of advice.... pick two or three cheap cable releases. You'll need two if you ever need MLU and want to do a long exposure. You'll kick yourself the day you want travel to do family shots at Christmas and the MLU screw on the lens didn't reset the last time you used it...
I enjoy my RB67... can't comment or offer a comparison on the 645 though. I just aquired a WLF for my RB... Kind of getting use to it right now...
I almost slapped on my Prism finder yesterday. It was my first outing with it, in over 6 months. We'll see how well I did on focusing after my film dry's today.
Photosbycj wrote: Lastly i know the RB67's 6x7 negatives are going to be better resolution but are they a huge difference from the 645?
Just be prepared for the size and weight of the RB. That was one of the reasons I went with a Bronica GS-1; smallest and lightest of the 6x7 SLRs, superb optics (modified Nikkor designs) and modern electronic leaf shutters. Th only disadvantages are the lack of a rotating back, relatively long MFD (like most leaf shutter lenses) and difficulty finding some lenses.
i had the rb before i switched and i had a few of my lenses that began to have sync problems and would not sync anymore. the cost of fixing them was greater than the cost to buy another used one
the rz is just a much better camera and the used cost now is similar if you search around.
I would give you this advice having owned a Mamiya 645 and shot both cameras. The 645 lenses are not as crisp as I would want for professional level photography. If you shoot with the 80 mm side by side with a Hasselblad 500cm , you will see how soft the lens is in comparison. An 8 by 10 inch print from each, side by side, will just speak volumes.
That is how I tested my 645 after I had already purchased it. I wish that I had done the test in advance.
Photosbycj wrote: Thanks again for the info and suggestions. I think I'm going to lean toward a RB/RZ 67 and if I have spare change I'll grab a 645 and see how I like it in comparison. For what I plan to use it for do y'all recommend the prism or is the waist view more than enough?
Again, it's one of those personal preference things. Some people love WLFs, some master them, some prefer prisms. I had a WLF on my RB, and my Rollei is WLF, and I much prefer (and can compose much more quickly with) a prism. Extra weight is worth it for me, but they are a pain if you need to get really low to take an interesting composition and you find yourself rolling around in the dirt.
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