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first2345
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,041
Portland, Oregon, US


I concur with the person who said to go through and remove the bad photos, rename and renumber so they look consecutive.  If you feel you need to leave some semi-bad ones in, go ahead so it is less clear that you removed things.

Now, I would only remove the photos that are not saveable, such as out of focus, bad flash sync, or some other technical failure.  If an uncle bob is in the way, that really isn't your fault and they may still find the image usable.

Remember that what they view as good images for their needs is a very different standard than what you'd consider for your portfolio.

I would not give anyone every shot taken (unless there is a legal reason to do so, such as documenting an accident or forensic photography), as deleting unusable photos is pretty typical and should be expected.

It sounds like their terms of every photo was sprung on you and insisted under duress, you'd already agreed to shoot, and would have looked bad to walk away moments before the wedding.

Had that expectation been discussed days or weeks prior, then it would be something you should absolutely honor, but sprung on you under pressure like that was not a fairly negotiated agreement.

In conclusion, one thing I've noticed over many years of selling photos and watching the photos that other photographers sell...  I've seen people buying and posting photos from other photographers that I would have deleted as rejects.  We need to remember that our standards are often higher than the end-user, so I prefer to let them determine if they are good enough for them, and I often tend to remove primarily the true failures/rejects.

Good luck!!!
Jan 21 13 09:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eric Lefebvre
Posts: 503
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


C and J Photography wrote:
Also, your rights to the images in Alberta are not what they would be if you shot in USA. Do not rely on USA copyright rules to work for your cases.

They are now with the recently copyright reform bill that went through.

http://www.petapixel.com/2012/11/07/can … ir-photos/

or

http://www.ppoc.ca/

Jan 21 13 09:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Robert Jewett
Posts: 2,419
al-Marsā, Tunis, Tunisia


This absolutely has to be a joke on us photographers.  Has to be.
Jan 21 13 10:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 1,804
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands


it's a free shoot, so it's basically on your terms......you decide, as long as you deliver some images.....



...what will be next btw?...you paying to photograph a wedding??

.... an embarrassment for photographers ...
Jan 21 13 10:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,479
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Robert Jewett wrote:
This absolutely has to be a joke on us photographers.  Has to be.

I thought about it. But I have horror stories from this town that are way worse.  And nothing will ever beat my cousin's 1st wedding in Flushing Meadows.  So I suspend disbelief for the sake of the thread.

Jan 21 13 10:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
salvatori.
Posts: 3,340
State College, Pennsylvania, US


I am simply amazed at the number of people who have called this a 'free wedding.' Shame on you if you just saw the thread title and decided not to think it through...

It was (in theory) a tf* shoot - the B/G were to get pics, the 'photographer' was to get experience.

After reading through the mentality by so many here "It was free so don't worry about it...", no wonder models don't want to do tf shoots...

And then photographers whine about models flaking on a tf shoot...

I am SO confused...

O_o
Jan 21 13 11:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,479
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


salvatori. wrote:
I am simply amazed at the number of people who have called this a 'free wedding.'

It was (in theory) a tf* shoot - the B/G were to get pics, the 'photographer' was to get experience.

After reading through the mentality by so many here, no wonder models don't want to do tf shoots...

And then photographers whine about models flaking on a tf shoot...

I am SO confused...

O_o

it was a mountain top wedding in the CDN Rockies (currently trading close to par with the US Rockies) in winter. so everyone should have anticipated some snow flaking...

Jan 21 13 11:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhillipM
Posts: 6,099
Martin, Tennessee, US


But what I really want to know, is if a bride falls down on a Mtn Top, does anyone hear it?
Jan 21 13 11:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 1,804
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands


you do NOT test on a wedding....too special occasion for that...

must admit , the couple was also not really taking their wedding photographs serious...
Jan 21 13 11:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herman van Gestel
Posts: 1,804
Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands


PhillipM wrote:
But what I really want to know, is if a bride falls down on a Mtn Top, does anyone hear it?

that would be a good reason to flake wink

Jan 21 13 11:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David J Martin
Posts: 448
Amberg, Bavaria, Germany


PhillipM wrote:
But what I really want to know, is if a bride falls down on a Mtn Top, does anyone hear it?

You hear it loudly and before you can realize what has happened, it's fading into the distance like a bride meteorite.

Jan 21 13 11:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,479
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


David J Martin wrote:

You hear it loudly and before you can realize what has happened, it's fading into the distance like a bride meteorite.

if this happens during formals, is it ok to ask for a retake?

Jan 21 13 11:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David J Martin
Posts: 448
Amberg, Bavaria, Germany


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

if this happens during formals, is it ok to ask for a retake?

Laughing big_smile

Jan 21 13 11:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rcaz
Posts: 33
Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, US


... This too shall pass.

Experience is the only salvation.

I would guess most every photographer on this forum has had their personal "oh shit" moment or day... and mine came at my 100th and final wedding.

Just be conscious of this huge blunder and go forward.


My advice is to find a freelance newspaper gig at a weekly, buy a 50mm f/1.8 lens and a Nikon AIS 300mm f/2.8 lens and shoot sports and news events for a year. It's not the best setup, but if you're on a budget, it will challenge you and give you great images.

A press pass is a ticket to go almost anywhere and shoot anything. Concerts, sporting events, social, and political events make for great experience and marketing opportunities.

Then find a wedding photographer and second shoot for a season, if that is a direction you wish to take.
Jan 21 13 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,479
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


rcaz wrote:
... This too shall pass.

Experience is the only salvation.

I would guess most every photographer on this forum has had their personal "oh shit" moment or day... and mine came at my 100th and final wedding.

Just be conscious of this huge blunder and go forward.


My advice is to find a freelance newspaper gig at a weekly, buy a 50mm f/1.8 lens and a Nikon AIS 300mm f/2.8 lens and shoot sports and news events for a year. It's not the best setup, but if you're on a budget, it will challenge you and give you great images.

A press pass is a ticket to go almost anywhere and shoot anything. Concerts, sporting events, social, and political events make for great experience and marketing opportunities.

Then find a wedding photographer and second shoot for a season, if that is a direction you wish to take.

I'm confused. either you are in the wrong thread or I am.  did the OP mention that she shoots Nikon and needs new glass?  did the OP mention being limited by not having long focal length lenses?  did the OP even mention that she wants to work as a pro photographer?  or has a shot at landing a freelance newspaper gig? please explain how this answers the OPs question.  I realize the OP has edited the original but even so, it should more, not less clear.

Jan 21 13 12:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PS201
Posts: 188
Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom


What about giving them 2 CDs?
One CD with the photos you consider your best, the other one with all the images (minus the really shitty ones wink )
Jan 21 13 12:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
D M E C K E R T
Posts: 4,786
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


ME_ wrote:
“You can’t unfry bacon, Jerri.”
-Stephen Colbert

omg! strangers with candy reference!

Jan 21 13 12:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
3934
Posts: 569
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Any chance did the OP take them in RAW format? If so, they may not be as screwed up as she thinks they are.
Jan 21 13 12:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,729
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
I'm confused. either you are in the wrong thread or I am.  did the OP mention that she shoots Nikon and needs new glass?  did the OP mention being limited by not having long focal length lenses?  did the OP even mention that she wants to work as a pro photographer?  or has a shot at landing a freelance newspaper gig? please explain how this answers the OPs question.  I realize the OP has edited the original but even so, it should more, not less clear.

You seem to be trying really, really hard to invalidate anything anyone says unless they're excusing her behavior and telling her it's OK.  It's not OK.  Yes, the clients bear some responsibility for making the choice they did.  That doesn't change the fact that the OP did a terribly irresponsible thing as a photographer, yet she seems to believe the only harm is that she might have to work harder than she wants to and she might get embarrassed.  People telling her "It's OK, just shrug it off and do better next time" or "don't worry about what you promised them because it was a freebie" are not doing her or anyone else a favor. 

Yes, everyone makes mistakes, and hopefully most people learn from them, but some mistakes are so egregious that even first offenses shouldn't be tolerated.  Telling people who make those mistakes that it's OK encourages them and others to make the same category of mistake again, and that's a pretty irresponsible thing to do as well.

Jan 21 13 12:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rcaz
Posts: 33
Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
I'm confused. either you are in the wrong thread or I am.  did the OP mention that she shoots Nikon and needs new glass?  did the OP mention being limited by not having long focal length lenses?  did the OP even mention that she wants to work as a pro photographer?  or has a shot at landing a freelance newspaper gig? please explain how this answers the OPs question.  I realize the OP has edited the original but even so, it should more, not less clear.

I didn't realize she edited the OP... glad it worked out for her.

Sorry about going off topic... sometimes I have a tendancy to ramble and answer questions not asked. Not unlike many others in the previous 170 responses.

Without being overly critical, I was hoping to encourage her along.

She needs experience if she wants to continue with photography. The path I outlined is just one of many, and for me it was very rewarding personally and opened other doors along the way...

Jan 21 13 01:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Blue Ash Film Group
Posts: 9,148
Cincinnati, Ohio, US


David J Martin wrote:

Funny, I was thinking the same thing.  If she's the Official photographer and is not happy with uncle bobs messing up her shots, why is she not taking an active role in directing the couple and uncle bobs out of her frame?

At over 540 images in an hour, I don't think there would be any time for anything like posing, composition or lighting.

Jan 21 13 01:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


You have a creative control of all the images you shoot out of your camera but if you are bieing paid to do a shoot you need to be specific as to what is going t be released up front before hand. I normally after shooting a frew frames go back and delete the ones i dont like or feel will not benefit the shoot. This way you have all of your good images ready to get transfered unto a DVD or CD
Jan 21 13 01:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


I can't help it but for 5 pages all that's been running through my mind is the line from Family Guy by Stewie when Brian was talking about his g/f being a photographer.

"Oh that is so lame. Every hot girl who can aim a camera thinks she's a photographer. Oooooooh, you took a black-and-white picture of a lawn chair and its shadow and developed it at Save-On. You must be so brooding and deep." -- Stewie Griffin.
Jan 21 13 01:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leighthenubian
Posts: 2,603
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Michael Pandolfo wrote:
I can't help it but for 5 pages all that's been running through my mind is the line from Family Guy by Stewie when Brian was talking about his g/f being a photographer.

"Oh that is so lame. Every hot girl who can aim a camera thinks she's a photographer. Oooooooh, you took a black-and-white picture of a lawn chair and its shadow and developed it at Save-On. You must be so brooding and deep." -- Stewie Griffin.

LMAO...nice.

Jan 21 13 01:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
my_other_profile
Posts: 666
Ankeny, Iowa, US


Hey again smile  Still on page 4 of reading replies.  I'll catch up.  Thank you for clarifying.

Honestly, I don't think you did anything wrong.  The bride was familiar with your level of experience.  They were comfortable bringing you along as a photographer.  There are plenty of weddings shot by people who don't even know how to adjust their cameras on manual mode and plenty more that aren't shot at all.  And based on the one picture you posted...you're better than some of the local "wedding photographers" here north of Des Moines.  Not all, mind you, we do have a few who genuinely know what they're doing...but most don't.  I sure as hell don't.  (Then again, I don't really call myself a photographer, so there you go.)

Then again, I don't exactly constitute a professional, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

In this case, you don't have a reputation to ruin.  These people are likely not going to be plastering your pictures everywhere.  They want them to have...and why shouldn't they?  Some might not be fridge-worthy and some might not even be sharp enough to tell what they're pictures of, but at the end of the day, if they want to look back through them a few years down the road for a moment of "oh, I forgot when my cousin tripped over that badger," why not?

I'd give them the images, stay on good terms, and call it a day.  Keep what you want for your portfolio but do them the service of getting them the images before you start using them.  You don't legally OWE it to them, but in the name of preserving the relationship with someone who's a friend of yours (as well as your personal integrity), do it anyway.

I don't think this situation will end badly.  Just treat your friend as you'd want her to treat you if your places were reversed -- this was her event and her memories.  Let her have them smile
Jan 21 13 02:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
C and J Photography
Posts: 1,986
Hauula, Hawaii, US


Eric Lefebvre wrote:
They are now with the recently copyright reform bill that went through.

http://www.petapixel.com/2012/11/07/can … ir-photos/

or

http://www.ppoc.ca/

I am truly pleased to have been substantially wrong on this issue. I still would not use USA case law as a giude in Canada since the laws are still different. I am glad the differences are much smaller now.

Jan 21 13 02:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,479
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


BTHPhoto wrote:

You seem to be trying really, really hard to invalidate anything anyone says unless they're excusing her behavior and telling her it's OK.  It's not OK.  Yes, the clients bear some responsibility for making the choice they did.  That doesn't change the fact that the OP did a terribly irresponsible thing as a photographer, yet she seems to believe the only harm is that she might have to work harder than she wants to and she might get embarrassed.  People telling her "It's OK, just shrug it off and do better next time" or "don't worry about what you promised them because it was a freebie" are not doing her or anyone else a favor. 

Yes, everyone makes mistakes, and hopefully most people learn from them, but some mistakes are so egregious that even first offenses shouldn't be tolerated.  Telling people who make those mistakes that it's OK encourages them and others to make the same category of mistake again, and that's a pretty irresponsible thing to do as well.

you seem to be trying to validate your boorish inappropriate behaviour, as you are doing now. Find me one instance where I said it was ok? no. you can't. You just like to make stuff up to support your position when facts fail. Also no one has said anything encouraging the OP and other to make the same category of mistakes again.  Where do you come up with this stuff?  It called lies when you knowingly repeat falsehoods.  All in all, there is a difference between calling you on your BS and supporting the OP. As I have reminded you a few thousand times, there is no evidence of these egregious mistakes that you pontificate about.  If anything people (including you) should be warning the OP that it could have been a lot worse.  As I stated the first time, it is clear someone pissed in your cornflakes.  Your replies are clearly based on that and not on facts.  As you noticed, the person I quoted freely admitted that they took it off topic.  And yet, you decided that I was wrong anyways?   

Why don't you go find a thread where someone admits to not having a card in their camera for half the wedding? or admits to forgetting to return it to normal RAW from B&W jpg?  These might be  egregious enough to support your pontification. I'm off for some Indian food. I look forward to reading what else gets posted in this thread smile

Jan 21 13 03:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Duncan
Posts: 2,121
New York, New York, US


Give them what YOU want to give them, what are they going to do NOT pay you?
Jan 21 13 03:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chronos Creations
Posts: 353
Benidorm, Valencia, Spain


Photography by Riddell wrote:
Perhaps next time you are in a resturant and the guy cooks your dinner so badly its uneatable, or the guy who fixes your car just such a bad job the engine blows up a mile down the road, you'll also shrug your shoulders and just say 'everyone makes mistakes'

What if the helicopter pilot descibed in this scene, crashed the helicopter and killed everyone, because he was only 18 years old and only started playing around with a helicopter a month before. I mean everyone makes mistakes right?

Lol are you comparing bad photos to killing and maiming people? Definitely serious about this aren't you guys tongue Holy shit

Jan 21 13 03:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,729
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

you seem to be trying to validate your boorish inappropriate behaviour, as you are doing now. Find me one instance where I said it was ok? no. you can't. You just like to make stuff up to support your position when facts fail. Also no one has said anything encouraging the OP and other to make the same category of mistakes again.  Where do you come up with this stuff?  It called lies when you knowingly repeat falsehoods.  All in all, there is a difference between calling you on your BS and supporting the OP. As I have reminded you a few thousand times, there is no evidence of these egregious mistakes that you pontificate about.  If anything people (including you) should be warning the OP that it could have been a lot worse.  As I stated the first time, it is clear someone pissed in your cornflakes.  Your replies are clearly based on that and not on facts.  As you noticed, the person I quoted freely admitted that they took it off topic.  And yet, you decided that I was wrong anyways?   

Why don't you go find a thread where someone admits to not having a card in their camera for half the wedding? or admits to forgetting to return it to normal RAW from B&W jpg?  These might be  egregious enough to support your pontification. I'm off for some Indian food. I look forward to reading what else gets posted in this thread smile

It's clear we have different ethical standards, and that leads us to disagree about the seriousness of the actions portrayed in the OP (the OP before the story was changed).  It's also clear that you think your witty insults and denial of everything anyone says should clearly prove how superior your are to anyone who disagrees with you and should shut them up.  However neither of those things makes disagreeing with you equivalent to lying, and calling me a liar is definitely not a good way to shut me up.  Disagree with me if you want, but if the strength of your defense boils down to personal attacks, you might just get the honor of being the first person I ever CAM'd.

Jan 21 13 05:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chronos Creations
Posts: 353
Benidorm, Valencia, Spain


BTHPhoto wrote:

It's clear we have different ethical standards, and that leads us to disagree about the seriousness of the actions portrayed in the OP (the OP before the story was changed).  It's also clear that you think your witty insults and denial of everything anyone says should clearly prove how superior your are to anyone who disagrees with you and should shut them up.  However neither of those things makes disagreeing with you equivalent to lying, and calling me a liar is definitely not a good way to shut me up.  Disagree with me if you want, but if the strength of your defense boils down to personal attacks, you might just get the honor of being the first person I ever CAM'd.

Lol, You're all very funny people. Please list the help you have given so far smile

It doesn't matter now, OP's update shows her pics WERE satisfactory and everything is fine.

Jan 21 13 05:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WR Photographics
Posts: 1,300
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada


Sugar Sharai wrote:

I was not aware that I had no CHOICE on whether or not to give them all of the shots, the bride brought it up like a suggestion rather, but the groom made it seem like this was the only option for a shoot.

and i was unaware of this until they picked me up, to head to the helicopter.

Obviously, the time to iron out these details is well in advance but, if you felt uncomfortable with the new clause in the "contract", the time to back out would have been when they told you about it. Refuse by having them drop you off, and take a taxi home.
However, by shooting under the new conditions, you are pretty much tied to them.
Having said that, do NOT release copyright at all, and make sure the exif data has your copyright and a do not reproduce request. It won't stop anything from being printed or reproduced, but a sword is better than a shield.

One thing, I note you are from Canada. Our copyright laws recently changed, so you will want to see which revision of the law your pictures falls under.

Jan 21 13 06:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Eric Lefebvre
Posts: 503
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


All this sniping at each other and berating the OP is no longer necessary or even remotely useful at this point. The OP has stated that things have worked out in the end.

Hopefully the OP will have learnt a few important lessons out of this and out of EVERYONE'S (yes, even the annoying trolls) comments.

1- Don't shoot without a contract.
2- Learn to say no to bad clients.
3- Know you limits and don't agree to a shoot that is above your ability.

Good luck in the future "Sugar Sharai"
Jan 21 13 06:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Photography by Riddell
Posts: 604
Hemel Hempstead, England, United Kingdom


BTHPhoto wrote:
some mistakes are so egregious that even first offenses shouldn't be tolerated.  Telling people who make those mistakes that it's OK encourages them and others to make the same category of mistake again, and that's a pretty irresponsible thing to do as well.

Exactly.

It just shows desperation on the side of amateur / wannabe photographers that they find this kind of behaviour acceptable.

Jan 22 13 02:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mike Kelcher
Posts: 12,625
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


It's their wedding and you have probably the best images taken. Give 'em everything that is even "halfway good". They are probably of little use to you....and would be much appreciated by them. Besides, you didn't do this as a paid shoot anyway...so make 'em happy and toss 'em on a disk.

On your trip home, the helicopter didn't drop you off half-way did it?
Jan 22 13 02:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
redbanana
Posts: 775
Lexington, Kentucky, US


Blue Ash Film Group wrote:

At over 540 images in an hour, I don't think there would be any time for anything like posing, composition or lighting.

My thoughts as well but who am I to question her speed shoot.

Jan 22 13 04:06 am  Link  Quote 
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