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Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,917
New York, New York, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:
Gee, that's a lot too do.   Look on Google maps to see if there are places to run to?   Many models don't have cars either.  Tell you what all photographers should be required to do a DNA test, pass a NSA background check and models should check in every ten minutes with friends and the police.   If free photo shoots require all that are they really worth doing?   Many of the shooters who join MM won't have many models to show.   Their profiles may be poorly worded and I know several who are excellent photographers buy socially awkward.   Well good job of potentially scaring models.

Thing is, Laura's been around and knows what she's talking about. 

IMHO if it's not worth checking out the person you're working with, then it's not worth working with them.  She doesn't suggest a single thing I don't suggest to my mentees.

Frankly, as a photographer, I prefer that models check me out quite carefully.  If they have any reservations about working with me I'd rather not use them.  Tfhe deer int he headlights look just doesn't cut it.  Since I shoot one-on-one nudes, it's essential that we both have a solid basis of trust between us before beginning the shoot.  Rest assured, I perform a similar check on any model that gives me cause for concern.  I'm crazy, but I'm not stupid and I don't think my models should be, either.

All IMHO, as always.

Jan 24 13 01:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,363
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:
To me what's so sad is how many people view people as sinister when they haven't heard from the person.

Couldn't have said that better myself.

Jan 24 13 01:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Lily Darling
Posts: 1,299
Lansing, Michigan, US


Nicole L Grant wrote:
Thanks, I just happened to google the company listed at the bottom of his about me section and it linked me to another model mayhem profile that was created about a yr earlier. Exact same Bio copied and pasted, A different state, and tons of photos.

This is concerning. But have you checked for references on any of the photos from his other profile?

Jan 24 13 01:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,967
Chicago, Illinois, US


Laura UnBound wrote:

I dont know Tony, *I* used to do all of that without any issue, so no I dont think its too much. If a model doesnt want to do it, she doesnt have to, but this particular model was looking for advice on what to do, so I gave it.

I know you really just HATE the idea of anyone doing any kind of background checking on you, but its the same tired old argument.

If I have to drive somewhere new, I streetview the address REGARDLESS of WHO Im working with because so many houses/buildings arent numbered/easy to find the numbers and I want to know what the building Im going to looks like. While Im at it, I see what is around that building so that I can familiarize myself with the area and will know when Im at the right place. Gosh thats just so much work...a whole five minutes of my time. But youre right, thats totally the same thing as requiring a DNA test roll

Hmmm... I think people should vet who they work with.   Its how they do it is my issue.   My point has usually been relying on the references people provide is a tad silly.   Do your own homework.   Just thought I'd get that out of the way to clarify things.   Gosh, looking around on Google st. maps, putting clothing near exits and some of your other helpful suggestions say to me what's the point of doing the shoot if you're that scared.   She could meet him before the shoot.   Maybe she could take a friend, meet him at his studio and let him know the friend would return later.   He's been a member since 2010 according to the OP.   Somehow, I'm guessing had he been a problem wouldn't be.   Some of your other hints seem a bit overboard as well.   Maybe the OP doesn't have a car for example.

Don't trust people seems to be your overall message.   Women have much more to fear from casual dates or men in their lives then some goofy photo shoot.   Should the model go to this one?   Maybe not.   Its your reasoning and thought process I am committing on.

Jan 24 13 01:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,967
Chicago, Illinois, US


Rays Fine Art wrote:

Thing is, Laura's been around and knows what she's talking about. 

IMHO if it's not worth checking out the person you're working with, then it's not worth working with them.  She doesn't suggest a single thing I don't suggest to my mentees.

Frankly, as a photographer, I prefer that models check me out quite carefully.  If they have any reservations about working with me I'd rather not use them.  Tfhe deer int he headlights look just doesn't cut it.  Since I shoot one-on-one nudes, it's essential that we both have a solid basis of trust between us before beginning the shoot.  Rest assured, I perform a similar check on any model that gives me cause for concern.  I'm crazy, but I'm not stupid and I don't think my models should be, either.

All IMHO, as always.

Laura is a bright person for certain but I was directing my question to you.

Jan 24 13 01:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,430
Salinas, California, US


Nicole L Grant wrote:
I received a message from a photographer tonight about setting up a shoot. I went to his page and well there are only 4 photos, no comments, no credits. Same for his page. No credits and about 5 or 6 profile tags but nothing saying he has worked with anyone. I asked if he had any references for me to contact and he says he has none because he is just starting his port. So my question is how do I look him up to ensure my safety or do I just pass on the work.

Question for you ... are you speaking with him on the phone?   I mean actually "talking" with him?  Now what I am writing is not meant to belittle you or anyone else but it bothers me how many people in the younger generation depend solely on texting and messaging for their method of communication.

In the old days before people put so much faith in emails and text messages, we used to actually talk on the phone.  I've been in business 30 years, so when someone messages me, I let them know that I simply must speak with them on the phone before I would consider booking a shoot.  Even a hearing impaired model was able to call me with assistance.  I don't book based only on emails or text messages.

Besides using the form of communication called "speaking on the phone" that has been a traditional method for many decades previous to the computer or digital age, we would meet in person at a public place like a coffee shop for example.  This way I could actually confirm what the "model" looks like much the same way I used to run my casting calls for local fashion shows and theater productions. 

So what I am saying is if you've actually met the person, or at least spoke with him on the phone, then you are going to have a better chance of evaluating him.  If you still have your doubts, then don't shoot with him.  Simple as that!  wink

Jan 24 13 01:36 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,917
New York, New York, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:

What rules has he broken for CAM?   Is having a home studio as many do a problem.   I'm just  not getting your thought process.   What similar incidents?   Is asking models to shoot when you have few images something to CAM members for?   I don't know why he called himself new.   Maybe he still considers himself new.   Not sure that's a lie.   He could have started and stopped.   Who knows.   To me what's so sad is how many people view people as sinister when they haven't heard from the person.

Don't know.  That's why the MODS check out questionable practices to determine whether or not there is a rule violation and if there actually is one (or more) maybe even remove the offender from the site.

One other thing I recommend that models do is to check the forum posts of photographers they are considering shooting with.  If were a young woman considering a shoot and I found that the photographer constantly demeaned models in his posts, was overly defensive of other photographers' failure to deliver pictures as promised or argued against reasonable due diligence, I'd consider these things to be major red flags and would just pass him by, just as I do models that insist that they be allowed to bring escorts or bring weapons onto the set.  And just as I do the model no harm by being cautious, the model does the photographer no harm by saying "No, thanks," if he doesn't pass whatever level of security she considers appropriate for herself.

IMHO, as always.

Jan 24 13 01:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,430
Salinas, California, US


Jackson frontier photos wrote:
I will often meet models for coffee prior to working with them.  And meeting in a public area for the initial shoot is also good advise.  or escorts.

I like this too!  Recently I shot with a model who has an account on here, but no cellphone!  She borrowed a friends phone and we confirmed our shoot.   I went and picked her up at the US Post Office where she waited with her friend. She and I drove off to do the shoot.  No problem!

Jan 24 13 01:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,430
Salinas, California, US


Rays Fine Art wrote:

Don't know.  That's why the MODS check out questionable practices to determine whether or not there is a rule violation and if there actually is one (or more) maybe even remove the offender from the site.

One other thing I recommend that models do is to check the forum posts of photographers they are considering shooting with.  If were a young woman considering a shoot and I found that the photographer constantly demeaned models in his posts, was overly defensive of other photographers' failure to deliver pictures as promised or argued against reasonable due diligence, I'd consider these things to be major red flags and would just pass him by, just as I do models that insist that they be allowed to bring escorts or bring weapons onto the set.  And just as I do the model no harm by being cautious, the model does the photographer no harm by saying "No, thanks," if he doesn't pass whatever level of security she considers appropriate for herself.

IMHO, as always.

Gosh!  I am soooo glad that I'm not a young struggling photographer trying to get started in today's World!  If I didn't have such a history ... as in lots of images, and references, would you CAM me?

But I agree with you that it's easy to check on what people are posting in the forums by using google.  I post so damn much in these forums, it will take 'em years to read the book I've written here!  lol

Jan 24 13 01:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Ginger Rothestein
Posts: 191
Wilmington, North Carolina, US


Nicole L Grant wrote:
I received a message from a photographer tonight about setting up a shoot. I went to his page and well there are only 4 photos, no comments, no credits. Same for his page. No credits and about 5 or 6 profile tags but nothing saying he has worked with anyone. I asked if he had any references for me to contact and he says he has none because he is just starting his port. So my question is how do I look him up to ensure my safety or do I just pass on the work.

Well, I've been in a few of these situations myself. At this point I just don't bother with anyone who only has 4 camera phone pictures, unflattering poses, no references, and to me the worst of all is when their port contains mainly pictures of butterflies and trees.......

There are TONS of people on here who just want to meet pretty women, if I were you, I'd just forget about the whole thing.

Is he paying you? You said his portfolio was shit, you're uncomfortable....so what's the conflict?

If you really want to shoot with this guy, and if he is ACTUALLY trying to build his port, ask him to find/hire a MUA. That would also benefit both of you. If he gives ANY kind of excuse for  why that wouldn't work.....well, you know.

Be safe, and be smart,
Ginger

Jan 24 13 01:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,361
Belmont, California, US


Lily Darling wrote:
This is concerning. But have you checked for references on any of the photos from his other profile?

Yes! This changes EVERYTHING and only Lily seems to have caught it, everyone else is still prattling on about your first post. If there are tons of photos, contact those models.

Jan 24 13 02:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Ginger Rothestein
Posts: 191
Wilmington, North Carolina, US


Lily Darling wrote:

This is concerning. But have you checked for references on any of the photos from his other profile?

Concerning, interesting....and something he conveniently left un-revealed. His intentions could be good or bad, maybe he's just horrible at communicating, or maybe he's horrible at lying. Either way, I'd be DONE at this point.

Jan 24 13 02:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,967
Chicago, Illinois, US


Rays Fine Art wrote:

Don't know.  That's why the MODS check out questionable practices to determine whether or not there is a rule violation and if there actually is one (or more) maybe even remove the offender from the site.

One other thing I recommend that models do is to check the forum posts of photographers they are considering shooting with.  If were a young woman considering a shoot and I found that the photographer constantly demeaned models in his posts, was overly defensive of other photographers' failure to deliver pictures as promised or argued against reasonable due diligence, I'd consider these things to be major red flags and would just pass him by, just as I do models that insist that they be allowed to bring escorts or bring weapons onto the set.  And just as I do the model no harm by being cautious, the model does the photographer no harm by saying "No, thanks," if he doesn't pass whatever level of security she considers appropriate for herself.

IMHO, as always.

Do, I detect a subtle slam?   Anyway,  In IMHO the ideal is to ask those you want to work with your questions.   Every week models race to MM to ask about agencies.   I've read things here that I knew were wrong.   Instead of asking the fora here ask THEM.   If you are still curious or have doubts then ask here as well but start with the source.   Common sense is next.   Long time members who are very active and have multiple tags.   Still have concerns?   Take a friend as I suggested.   If that friend isn't allowed to wait at the location then inform the photographer she/he will return.   I know it can be a dangerous world.   Police officers are more likely to assault women then photographers.   Same for doctors and dentists.   However do their communities fear monger like we do.

Why is it that its photographers advising women to be careful of other photographers?   Oh and by the way I'm safe is their usual inference.   I think women should use the same amount of caution they might use for a new date.   Are we more of a threat then that new cute guy who only provided a cell number.   We who have websites, Facebook accounts, verifiable address, business address and multiple personal cell numbers.   I don't know if the OP has actually spoken to the photographer.   She should address her questions to him.   We don't know who he is or anything about him so how can we judge or truly advise her.   Lets not deem someone anything without hearing from them.   IMHO of course.

Jan 24 13 02:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Lily Darling
Posts: 1,299
Lansing, Michigan, US


Toto Photo wrote:

Yes! This changes EVERYTHING and only Lily seems to have caught it, everyone else is still prattling on about your first post. If there are tons of photos, contact those models.

*bows* thank you smile

Jan 24 13 02:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Lily Darling
Posts: 1,299
Lansing, Michigan, US


Ginger Rothestein wrote:

Concerning, interesting....and something he conveniently left un-revealed. His intentions could be good or bad, maybe he's just horrible at communicating, or maybe he's horrible at lying. Either way, I'd be DONE at this point.

+1

Jan 24 13 02:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cameracamera
Posts: 65
Abbeville, Alabama, US


Jackson frontier photos wrote:
I will often meet models for coffee prior to working with them.  And meeting in a public area for the initial shoot is also good advise.  or llama herders.

Ditto!

Jan 24 13 02:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,430
Salinas, California, US


Ginger Rothestein wrote:

Well, I've been in a few of these situations myself. At this point I just don't bother with anyone who only has 4 camera phone pictures, unflattering poses, no references, and to me the worst of all is when their port contains mainly pictures of butterflies and trees.......

There are TONS of people on here who just want to meet pretty women, if I were you, I'd just forget about the whole thing.

Is he paying you? You said his portfolio was shit, you're uncomfortable....so what's the conflict?

If you really want to shoot with this guy, and if he is ACTUALLY trying to build his port, ask him to find/hire a MUA. That would also benefit both of you. If he gives ANY kind of excuse for  why that wouldn't work.....well, you know.

Be safe, and be smart,
Ginger

Those two issues in bold is what should be the deciding factor!  Don't shoot!

Jan 24 13 02:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 26,985
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Tony you keep referring back to dating.

What youre basically implying is that ALL women take strangers from bars home, but then turn around and ALL models (ie: the same women) check references on photographers and how thats not fair.

This is simply not true.

I check references on photographers and I DONT take strangers home from bars

not everyones an airheaded hypocrite


Not that modelling and dating are at all related in the first place...
Jan 24 13 02:24 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,917
New York, New York, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:
Gosh!  I am soooo glad that I'm not a young struggling photographer trying to get started in today's World!  If I didn't have such a history ... as in lots of images, and references, would you CAM me?

But I agree with you that it's easy to check on what people are posting in the forums by using google.  I post so damn much in these forums, it will take 'em years to read the book I've written here!  lol

No, but I might CAM you for trying to use the forums to post the entire Library of Congress, piece by piece!  smile

The CAM suggestion was as a result of this post

Nicole L Grant wrote:
Thanks, I just happened to google the company listed at the bottom of his about me section and it linked me to another model mayhem profile that was created about a yr earlier. Exact same Bio copied and pasted, A different state, and tons of photos.

by the OP.
Nothing wrong with having two profiles, but if so, why did he not migrate pictures from the earlier profile?  Or, if the newer profile was just lifted from someone else, that'd certainly worth a check to try to find out if there was a rule violation (at minimum it's a copyright violation)  and/or the outside possibility of an actual predator.  In any case, worth checking.

Jan 24 13 02:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 3,887
Los Angeles, California, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hmmm... I think people should vet who they work with.   Its how they do it is my issue.   My point has usually been relying on the references people provide is a tad silly.

How is this silly? If a model keeps in mind the personal bias of other accounts and reminds him or herself that there are always outside factors that could make his or her own shoot very different, then what is wrong with a reference? Employers ask new employees for references, after all.   

Do your own homework.   Just thought I'd get that out of the way to clarify things.   Gosh, looking around on Google st. maps, putting clothing near exits and some of your other helpful suggestions say to me what's the point of doing the shoot if you're that scared.

There is scared, and then there is being cautious. Since we're playing at making connections here with dating, I'll make a connection with a hiker. Is a hiker who brings extra food and water scared or cautious? Is a hiker who leaves behind his or her own information and route and time to return scared or cautious? It is always good to be prepared.   

She could meet him before the shoot.   Maybe she could take a friend, meet him at his studio and let him know the friend would return later.   He's been a member since 2010 according to the OP.

1. Meeting someone before a shoot is nigh impossible for a lot of women. I, for example, have a shoot almost every day of the week. I do not have time to go driving around playing meet and greet. That would take away from actual time working and being paid.

2. I personally disagree with this since something can still happen between when the friend leaves and returns...

3. A length of time someone has been on MM means nothing. There are plenty of iffy people who are or were on this site for a long time, as MM always wants to make sure the person is a problem and not just go off hearsay.

... and that's just on the line of safety. The methods you do not tell you how a photographer works, if s/he is good on returning images, etc. A reference check to other models can give me that information.

Don't trust people seems to be your overall message.   Women have much more to fear from casual dates or men in their lives then some goofy photo shoot.   Should the model go to this one?   Maybe not.   Its your reasoning and thought process I am committing on.

And this is where I point out that connecting dating to modeling doesn't make much sense. There are, for example, plenty of women who do not go on casual dates, so asking why they would take a risk there and not take a risk in modeling is silly. They aren't taking a risk in either.

Jan 24 13 02:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPRINGHEEL
Posts: 38,005
Gibraltar, Michigan, US


escorts lol
Jan 24 13 02:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Ginger Rothestein
Posts: 191
Wilmington, North Carolina, US


IDiivil wrote:

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Hmmm... I think people should vet who they work with.   Its how they do it is my issue.   My point has usually been relying on the references people provide is a tad silly.

How is this silly? If a model keeps in mind the personal bias of other accounts and reminds him or herself that there are always outside factors that could make his or her own shoot very different, then what is wrong with a reference? Employers ask new employees for references, after all.   

Do your own homework.   Just thought I'd get that out of the way to clarify things.   Gosh, looking around on Google st. maps, putting clothing near exits and some of your other helpful suggestions say to me what's the point of doing the shoot if you're that scared.

There is scared, and then there is being cautious. Since we're playing at making connections here with dating, I'll make a connection with a hiker. Is a hiker who brings extra food and water scared or cautious? Is a hiker who leaves behind his or her own information and route and time to return scared or cautious? It is always good to be prepared.   

She could meet him before the shoot.   Maybe she could take a friend, meet him at his studio and let him know the friend would return later.   He's been a member since 2010 according to the OP.

1. Meeting someone before a shoot is nigh impossible for a lot of women. I, for example, have a shoot almost every day of the week. I do not have time to go driving around playing meet and greet. That would take away from actual time working and being paid.

2. I personally disagree with this since something can still happen between when the friend leaves and returns...

3. A length of time someone has been on MM means nothing. There are plenty of iffy people who are or were on this site for a long time, as MM always wants to make sure the person is a problem and not just go off hearsay.

... and that's just on the line of safety. The methods you do not tell you how a photographer works, if s/he is good on returning images, etc. A reference check to other models can give me that information.


And this is where I point out that connecting dating to modeling doesn't make much sense. There are, for example, plenty of women who do not go on casual dates, so asking why they would take a risk there and not take a risk in modeling is silly. They aren't taking a risk in either.

HELL yeah girly smile

Jan 24 13 02:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 3,887
Los Angeles, California, US


As an aside, I'm sad that reference checking can be at all construed as a bad thing. It can be misleading, sure, but so can all things... I can be mislead by a photographer meeting, I can be mislead by the use of escorts, and I can be mislead by my own gut.

Reference checking is no worse than any other form of ensuring safety, reliability, or otherwise.

.____.
Jan 24 13 02:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alivia Autumn
Posts: 606
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


Nicole L Grant wrote:
I received a message from a photographer tonight about setting up a shoot. I went to his page and well there are only 4 photos, no comments, no credits. Same for his page. No credits and about 5 or 6 profile tags but nothing saying he has worked with anyone. I asked if he had any references for me to contact and he says he has none because he is just starting his port. So my question is how do I look him up to ensure my safety or do I just pass on the work.

I don't work with people that don't have references.  This is non-negotiable for me.  That's just my thoughts on it.  Better safe than sorry.

Jan 24 13 03:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Laura UnBound wrote:
OP: is there work something you really can't live without? If its nothing super fantastic, you don't have to be their first shoot if you don't feel comfortable with it.

Otherwise, trust your gut. If there are any weird things about their profile, the way they communicate with you, etc then don't go.
Ask them for their real name ( and google it)
Google their phone number
Google the address you're supposed to meet at
Use satellite or street view for that address and familiarize yourself with what's nearby in case of emergency (can you run across the street and into a coffee shop, ask to use their phone, or are you in the middle of nowhere?)
If you're going to a location, drive yourself. Be firm but polite, you'd just rather take your own car. That way you're never at someone else's mercy if you want/need to leave
Tell someone where you're going and at what times you'll be there, call them when you arrive and tell them what time you will call them again at ( either mid-shoot and/or when it's over.) if they don't hear from you by X time then they need to call you back, and if you don't answer what to do then

Know that you're free to leave any shoot you feel uncomfortable at. You don't owe anything to anybody if they're making you uncomfortable, just get up and leave.

When you're on a shoot, don't leave your things spread all over the place while you're shooting. Once you've gotten ready, pack your stuff up neatly and place it near the door, so you're not scrambling around someone's studio/house trying to get your keys and wallet and phone or worrying about having to leave all your stuff behind because you just want to get out of there quickly. If they say something about it just explain that you like to be tidy and you don't want to forget anything when you leave so you'd rather keep it all together.

+1 Solid advice from a working model.

Here also is an excellent post by Madame Bink, one of the best known and most successful art nude models in the UK. She's been modelling (mostly nude) for 6 years and has never had a serious problem with a photographer because she uses her head and takes reasonable precautions, including checking references, before working with somebody for the first time.

Starting Modelling: Staying Safe - by Madame Bink


Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jan 24 13 03:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Conceicao
Posts: 3
Sacramento, California, US


I always insist on at least a phone conversation first, I also check a Megans Law website just to be careful. An escort, and a few references doesn't hurt either.
Jan 24 13 03:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,430
Salinas, California, US


IDiivil wrote:
Employers ask new employees for references, after all.

Absolutely!!!  Only a careless employer would hire some unknown person without reference checks AND MEETING that person to interview them.  I have never been hired for a job without having met the potential employer in person before getting the job.  When I hire people for my business, I must at least speak with them on the phone before doing so.  With llamas, it's just like in my days of running casting calls for fashion shows and theater productions, you've got to audition!

IDiivil wrote:
It is always good to be prepared.

Absolutely!!!!  I "google map" like crazy! I like to get the "view" of potential locations.   I don't trust those damn GPS devices!  lol 

Ask any of the llamas or people I work with ... whatever kind of event, be it a llama shoot, or setting up a booth at a major show, I'm an anal person about having more stuff ... more food and water for the llamas OR more back up camera gear for example.  I'm also one of the best at improvisation that you'll find!  It comes from my theater background. 

IDiivil wrote:
1. Meeting someone before a shoot is nigh impossible for a lot of women. I, for example, have a shoot almost every day of the week. I do not have time to go driving around playing meet and greet. That would take away from actual time working and being paid.

2. I personally disagree with this since something can still happen between when the friend leaves and returns...

3. A length of time someone has been on MM means nothing. There are plenty of iffy people who are or were on this site for a long time, as MM always wants to make sure the person is a problem and not just go off hearsay.

... and that's just on the line of safety. The methods you do not tell you how a photographer works, if s/he is good on returning images, etc. A reference check to other llamas can give me that information.

That is wonderful that you are so solidly booked!  However, at the very least, I'd hope you would speak on the phone with the photographers.  There is nothing wrong or cynical about meeting at a public place in advance before shooting.  If I had a studio location like I did back in the good old days, then I wouldn't sweat it ... I'd be booked every day too if I could. 

Anther fact about getting hired ... I'd shot weddings for 20 years professionally, and I NEVER had a couple hire me without first meeting me in person.  The last Bridezilla turned me off to shooting weddings ever again. I should have been more careful about it, but once she signed my contract and then later found a cheaper photographer and wanted me to drop the contract, she made my life ... well you know.

Have you ever worked at a job other than llamaing?  If you don't feel safe enough to be alone working with someone ... then don't take that job.  It's that simple.  Not to say that sexual harassment doesn't happen in many different work places, but you do have a choice in this matter.   I've walked off the job with my entire crew when the boss did something we felt was inappropriate.  I don't always make the best employee, but I sure hope I make a good employer!  Many of the llamas I work with multiple times have become trusting friends over the years. 

If you go to my Facebook, I have friends on there who are former llamas I first shot with 20 years ago!  I guess they trust me, and I value that!  But you say that the length of time doesn't matter?  Perhaps as you get older, you will value long term relationships ... be it in work or friendship. 

Certainly websites can be manipulated, and maybe a profile can be long term on here but the person not a good one for you to work with.  That is why you do want to communicate with them.  If a photographer is inappropriate with you, CAM it! The website admin is responsible for dealing with those who are inappropriate, but not unless you CAM it. 


IDiivil wrote:
And this is where I point out that connecting dating to llamaing doesn't make much sense. There are, for example, plenty of women who do not go on casual dates, so asking why they would take a risk there and not take a risk in llamaing is silly. They aren't taking a risk in either.

I agree that dating and working as a llama are two different activities.  I think what he meant to say is that more people are raped, or killed by someone they know ... as in boyfriends for example than by people they work with.  However, as the media spreads more fear mongering in the name of news of school and work place shootings, you might think otherwise.  Living in fear is not really living, now is it?

Jan 24 13 03:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 3,887
Los Angeles, California, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:
If you go to my Facebook, I have friends on there who are former llamas I first shot with 20 years ago!  I guess they trust me, and I value that!  But you say that the length of time doesn't matter?  Perhaps as you get older, you will value long term relationships ... be it in work or friendship. 

Certainly websites can be manipulated, and maybe a profile can be long term on here but the person not a good one for you to work with.  That is why you do want to communicate with them.  If a photographer is inappropriate with you, CAM it! The website admin is responsible for dealing with those who are inappropriate, but not unless you CAM it.

You missed my point. My point is, going "Oh this photog has been here since 2006, he must be safe" is not a valid way of confirming whether someone is safe or not. A lot of people, particularly newer llamas, seem to believe how long someone has been on MM can matter because, if they were bad, MM would have kicked them off by now. That isn't always the case.

I'm not sure why we are discussing CAM. I support CAM all the way and do my best to encourage girls to report bad situations.

I would rather you not make assumptions about any type of relationships I am involved in and what value I do or do not put in them. That is irrelevant.

Jan 24 13 03:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,430
Salinas, California, US


IDiivil wrote:
You missed my point. My point is, going "Oh this photog has been here since 2006, he must be safe" is not a valid way of confirming whether someone is safe or not. A lot of people, particularly newer models, seem to believe how long someone has been on MM can matter because, if they were bad, MM would have kicked them off by now. That isn't always the case.

I'm not sure why we are discussing CAM. I support CAM all the way and do my best to encourage girls to report bad situations.

I would rather you not make assumptions about any type of relationships I am involved in and what value I do or do not put in them. That is irrelevant.

No, I do get your point.  The number of years one has been on this website should not be used as the only indicating factor in working with someone.  Too many things can be manipulated and fabricated online.  You are also correct that some photographers that you consider to be unsafe might still be on this site.  The opinion of those who are moderators might differ from yours, and that would explain why they are still here. 

I'm with you on reporting inappropriate behavior!  We are discussing CAM'ing because that is the method of making these reports.

Where are you thinking I've made some sort of "assumptions" about your relationships?  I have no idea where that came from.  Please tell me what I wrote that made you think I assume anything about you?  I honestly don't even really know you, and know nothing of your "relationships" at all.

Jan 24 13 04:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,300
London, England, United Kingdom


Nicole L Grant wrote:
He gave me 3 names of people on his friends list and told me to check them out. I message 2 the 3rd hasn't been on since 2011 it shows.
He is wanting to shoot in his home studio and says no escorts so unless I can verify the references I may just pass. His profile has been around since 2010.

No references, no escorts and will only shoot at home?

Why bother?

Jan 24 13 04:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nicole L Grant
Posts: 77
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Lily Darling wrote:

This is concerning. But have you checked for references on any of the photos from his other profile?

I messaged the other profile and it belonged to someone else. That photographer said he had no idea who he even was.

Jan 24 13 04:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 26,985
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Nicole L Grant wrote:

I messaged the other profile and it belonged to someone else. That photographer said he had no idea who he even was.

So...what have you decided?

Jan 24 13 04:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,746
London, England, United Kingdom


I remember setting my MM profile up in 2006, was intimidated and hid under the duvet until I had quiet a few more shoots under my belt with friends and their friends. I didn't really start using MM until 2009. Back then I mainly shot men which was always much easier to organize.

Everyone has to start somewhere and as we get more experienced it's easy to forget that newbies need a break too.

On the other hand, I understand a model's need for caution (as with any situation), and Laura pretty much covers everything needed for a background check.

Something to bear in mind, is that most newbies won't have a problem with being checked (as long as it's done without drama), they are general keen to please because someone is giving them a break.
Jan 24 13 04:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nicole L Grant
Posts: 77
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:

Question for you ... are you speaking with him on the phone?   I mean actually "talking" with him?  Now what I am writing is not meant to belittle you or anyone else but it bothers me how many people in the younger generation depend solely on texting and messaging for their method of communication.

In the old days before people put so much faith in emails and text messages, we used to actually talk on the phone.  I've been in business 30 years, so when someone messages me, I let them know that I simply must speak with them on the phone before I would consider booking a shoot.  Even a hearing impaired model was able to call me with assistance.  I don't book based only on emails or text messages.

Besides using the form of communication called "speaking on the phone" that has been a traditional method for many decades previous to the computer or digital age, we would meet in person at a public place like a coffee shop for example.  This way I could actually confirm what the "model" looks like much the same way I used to run my casting calls for local fashion shows and theater productions. 

So what I am saying is if you've actually met the person, or at least spoke with him on the phone, then you are going to have a better chance of evaluating him.  If you still have your doubts, then don't shoot with him.  Simple as that!  wink

No we were actually talking via email. Things seemed a little "off" from the beginning which is what brought me to come ask. He stated in his bio about 4 or 5 times that he does not pay models but his first message to me was what are your rates. It's not entirely the not have pictures issue for me. I've shoot with photographers from MM who have had very few pics but there was other things going on from their profile (comments from people, references etc). This is only the 2nd time in awhile that I have actually felt the need to question anything as far as a photographer.

Jan 24 13 04:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nicole L Grant
Posts: 77
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Rays Fine Art wrote:

No, but I might CAM you for trying to use the forums to post the entire Library of Congress, piece by piece!  smile

The CAM suggestion was as a result of this post

by the OP.
Nothing wrong with having two profiles, but if so, why did he not migrate pictures from the earlier profile?  Or, if the newer profile was just lifted from someone else, that'd certainly worth a check to try to find out if there was a rule violation (at minimum it's a copyright violation)  and/or the outside possibility of an actual predator.  In any case, worth checking.

The other profile is not connected to his.

Jan 24 13 04:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nicole L Grant
Posts: 77
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Laura UnBound wrote:

So...what have you decided?

I am going to decline.

Jan 24 13 04:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,746
London, England, United Kingdom


... OP, on this particular thread, from what you've provided

1.  The "newbie" can be linked to an older profile, would be interested to hear what he says about that one.

2. "No escort" tends to be associated with more seasoned photographers, again doesn't sound like a "newbie"

I can see why you have questions about this particular photographer. Go with your gut. It's one thing to have one or two things iffy but you have.

No credible references, few photos (are they as old as his profile?), plus the two other points above.
Jan 24 13 04:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 26,985
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Nicole L Grant wrote:

I am going to decline.

borat

Jan 24 13 04:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 3,887
Los Angeles, California, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:

No, I do get your point.  The number of years one has been on this website should not be used as the only indicating factor in working with someone.  Too many things can be manipulated and fabricated online.  You are also correct that some photographers that you consider to be unsafe might still be on this site.  The opinion of those who are moderators might differ from yours, and that would explain why they are still here. 

I'm with you on reporting inappropriate behavior!  We are discussing CAM'ing because that is the method of making these reports.

Where are you thinking I've made some sort of "assumptions" about your relationships?  I have no idea where that came from.  Please tell me what I wrote that made you think I assume anything about you?  I honestly don't even really know you, and know nothing of your "relationships" at all.

My bad if you meant no harm. Thanks for clarifying. Your original wording came off somewhat questionable to me, but it's been a long day, so I could be reading under a little bit of stress! smile

Jan 24 13 04:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nicole L Grant
Posts: 77
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Darren Brade wrote:
... OP, on this particular thread, from what you've provided

1.  The "newbie" can be linked to an older profile, would be interested to hear what he says about that one.

2. "No escort" tends to be associated with more seasoned photographers, again doesn't sound like a "newbie"

I can see why you have questions about this particular photographer. Go with your gut. It's one thing to have one or two things iffy but you have.

No credible references, few photos (are they as old as his profile?), plus the two other points above.

The 4 photos that were on the page were from the day the profile was created. More were added today but honestly they look like pictures someone took themselves.

Jan 24 13 05:01 pm  Link  Quote 
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