Just sharing creative philosophy. Don't be so closed minded.
Your philosophy should also apply to you. Can I do my own styling? Yes.
Do I need to listen to the decrees of an unknown photographer who seems to enjoy telling models what to do so as to spare himself having to be specific in casting, coordinate his own teams and produce work that makes styling personnel remotely interested?
Jim McSmith
Posts: 515
Aldershot, England, United Kingdom
Paige Morgan wrote:
Your philosophy should also apply to you. Can I do my own styling? Yes.
Do I need to listen to the decrees of an unknown photographer who seems to enjoy telling models what to do so as to spare himself having to be specific in casting, coordinate his own teams and produce work that makes styling personnel remotely interested?
Jim McSmith wrote: Over the years I've met models who were great with make up and others completely hopeless. Now, providing a make up artist raises costs and so wouldn't it be great if models took beauty courses in order to improve make up skills. This would improve versatility greatly I think. Any thought on this matter are very welcome. Thank you.
I'm sure models will get right on that...
right after you finish taking a course to teach you that the world does not revolved around you and this apparent belief that you need to show up here and tell other people what you're convinced they should do.
I'm finding the question of whether photographers should shoot their own portfolio images more fascinating than make-up questions; or maybe it's related and a play on the terms made up and make-up. What an amusing diversion.
If we're looking at this from a career perspective I have to agree with those who believe that being well rounded in the industry would be helpful.
It may not be that the model is doing his/her own make-up but it can't hurt to understand and be aware of how it's working. When taking pictures your taking a 3D situation into a 2D imagine. I feel it would be good for a model to know how they look both from behind the Camera and in front of it.
It could be very beneficial for, male and female, models to know a little bit about foundations, powers, high lighters, and contours. That way they know the "why and how" of the make-up. They can understand what is being enhanced, what they're hiding, why certain make-ups are applied on certain places.
Take that into a combination of general knowledge of lighting, film, shooting styles, etc... and you have a well rounded and very (important thing here) SELF AWARE model.
Decay of Memory wrote: I'm finding the question of whether photographers should shoot their own portfolio images more fascinating than make-up questions; or maybe it's related and a play on the terms made up and make-up. What an amusing diversion.
I am not sure if the OP is aware of this, but it was only in the late 70's and early 80's that make-up artists were employed in the majority of commercial photo shoots.
Prior to that, models were in fact given classes to help with their careers by their agencies, and make-up application was one of those classes. It was make-up artists like Way Bandy, who when he broke through, established professional make-up and hair at photoshoots to be the norm rather than an exception.
Still, make-up being done by the model is not uncommon even today when it comes to testing. For commercial photoshoots, it's pretty rare.
Jojo West
Posts: 929
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Jim McSmith wrote:
Just sharing creative philosophy. Don't be so closed minded.
You fail to understand that 1. your "creative philosophy" isn't creative 2. most models are well aware of the benefits of knowing make-up 3. the constant ramblings of a photographer who obviously has some sort of superiority complex, which he perhaps developed in order to disguise his own feelings of inadequacy don't really provide us with groundbreaking insight.
You can continue trolling the model forum and you shall continue to be trolled by photographers and models alike in return.
Jim McSmith
Posts: 515
Aldershot, England, United Kingdom
Jojo West wrote:
You fail to understand that 1. your "creative philosophy" isn't creative 2. most models are well aware of the benefits of knowing make-up 3. the constant ramblings of a photographer who obviously has some sort of superiority complex, which he perhaps developed in order to disguise his own feelings of inadequacy don't really provide us with groundbreaking insight.
You can continue trolling the model forum and you shall continue to be trolled by photographers and models alike in return.
Jim McSmith wrote: Then why are you here?????????????????????????/
That's what I was talking about earlier. You seem to have this narcissistic mentality that models exist only to satisfy your efforts and that they should be thanksful for your paternalistic rants.
Are you under the impression that ANY model is here to be told how they should behave? What professional avenues they embark? How they approach their portfolio? And what surgical procedures you deem acceptable?
Are you going through a bitter breakup? Because every single one of your posts within every thread for the past week has been incredibly condescending and sexist. And each post displays a sense of entitlement that is not remotely deserved.
Jim McSmith
Posts: 515
Aldershot, England, United Kingdom
Michael Pandolfo wrote:
That's what I was talking about earlier. You seem to have this narcissistic mentality that models exist only to satisfy your efforts and that they should be thanksful for your paternalistic rants.
Are you under the impression that ANY model is here to be told how they should behave? What professional avenues they embark? How they approach their portfolio? And what surgical procedures you deem acceptable?
Are you going through a bitter breakup? Because every single one of your posts within every thread for the past week has been incredibly condescending and sexist. And each post displays a sense of entitlement that is not remotely deserved.
This site is full of trolls. I'm talking about make up and he's going on about relationships and breaking up. Whatever next!
And really, if you look in my port and no one is credited for make-up, I did the make-up in that photo if I am wearing any. A lot of times for art nudes I do not wear make-up, often by the request of the photographer.
Make-up has become a hobby of mine, as has self portrait photography and they kind of go together. I follow a few beauty forums and pages and a lot of people who do tutorials on YouTube. I tend to go pretty soft or really dark for photoshoots (mostly self portraits) because those are the two looks that I think look best on me, but I would be willing to try other looks if I was given examples. Obviously the more artistic looks are something I would rather leave to an MUA, and I still think a good MUA will do better make-up than me every time.
Something else to consider is that make-up for shoots can get expensive. I have only a few palettes of eyeshadow, but they tend to run any where from $20 to $80 a piece. There are some cheaper versions out there, but they can be limited in shades and sometimes the quality is questionable and not consistent. Good quality foundation that provides that full coverage runs $35+ a bottle. Most good brushes are $20 each and up and it often takes 3 or more brushes to do an eye look alone. There are cheaper alternatives, but not many and good brushes are pretty vital to getting good make-up results.
Also, if you are considering doing make-up as a photographer (and this may have already been said), you really, really need to make sure you learn how to keep a sanitary make-up kit. Using make-up on yourself is one thing as you do not have to be super careful about contamination, but using the same make-up on multiple people means keeping those brushes clean and never dipping a contaminated brush into the product. A lot of MUAs actually have totally separate kits for themselves, or they use proper sanitation procedures when applying it themselves as well.
I think a model who can do at least some basic looks definitely has an advantage in some styles. But demanding that models be able to do all their own make-up is a pretty tall and expensive order. So please be sure you compensate those models properly ^_~
Kevin Connery
Posts: 15,385
Fullerton, California, US
Jim McSmith wrote:
Michael Pandolfo wrote: That's what I was talking about earlier. You seem to have this narcissistic mentality that models exist only to satisfy your efforts and that they should be thanksful for your paternalistic rants
....
Because every single one of your posts within every thread for the past week has been incredibly condescending and sexist. And each post displays a sense of entitlement that is not remotely deserved.
This site is full of trolls. I'm talking about make up and he's going on about relationships and breaking up. Whatever next!
No. He's referencing other posts which are right on the edge of being trolling if taken alone, but which clearly cross the line into trolling when taken together.
Jim McSmith wrote: Unfortunately where I live it would raise eyebrows unless you're noticeably gay. All the courses are filled with teenage girls and it would make people suspicious. It's more liberal minded in the US than here in the UK.
Bah excuses!
There is a massive amount of tutorials on you tube and the internet in general. Repeat after me, Google is god.
Jim McSmith wrote: Over the years I've met models who were great with make up and others completely hopeless. Now, providing a make up artist raises costs and so wouldn't it be great if models took beauty courses in order to improve make up skills. This would improve versatility greatly I think. Any thought on this matter are very welcome. Thank you.
Next thread: Models, I think you need to learn massage classes. My neck gets sore, and my expenses of a masseuse are too high. Which means I can't lift my head to shoot you well through this camera. And it's your fault. How inconsiderate. Thanks!
But seriously, models only need to worry about their expenses. They are not responsible for keeping your costs low. Models are expected to know a basic make up look, but shouldn't have to be a trained MUA to do every concept you demand.
Jim McSmith
Posts: 515
Aldershot, England, United Kingdom
Samantha Emme wrote:
Next thread: Models, I think you need to learn massage classes. My neck gets sore, and my expenses of a masseuse are too high. Which means I can't lift my head to shoot you well through this camera. And it's your fault. How inconsiderate. Thanks!
But seriously, models only need to worry about their expenses. They are not responsible for keeping your costs low. Models are expected to know a basic make up look, but shouldn't have to be a trained MUA to do every concept you demand.
I feel like a lot of the time, unless you're going for a high fashion or glamour look (or something very exaggerated) then all makeup is doing is covering up problem areas and accentuating some positives, all of which can probably be done in post if you're only going to pull a couple of images from a set (and a lot can be done with actions). Hair is tougher.
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