Sorry, that was an off topic compliment to Nicolette.

Old photographers never die,

They just get a new body    (for their lenses)

Exactly.
My attitude, my tattoos, my [at the time] partially shaved head... while in some genres they helped me quite a bit, in others... not so much. I had to decide between doing what I want and doing what would make others "want" me.
The shaving of my head was the beginning of the end, in a way.

JOEL McDONALD wrote:

An English person living in Wales. It's rubbed off on you. But then the English do come in 4th in the stubbornness race.

And where is this stubborness league table? And is it applicable to women as well as men

It feels really nice. I've given away most of my latex and my shoot heels.
I have a few pieces left that I like. I'm buying lingerie because I want/like it. Not because "someone would shoot me in it." My closet is filled with plain, beat up jeans, white tanks, and band tees. Just the way I like it.

Eliza C wrote:
And where is this stubborness league table? And is it applicable to women as well as men

No. Women in the UK have the edge in the stubbornness thing.

Rankings:
#1 - Welsh
#2 - Scots
#3 - Irish
#4 - English

While this is not that bad, it's the kind of shit we put up with, as models, DAILY. We get asked out. Hit on. We're not taken seriously because they "desire" us sometimes. Then people wonder why we have "do not fucking hit on me" on our profiles. I've gotten many like this, many far more vulgar. One went so far as to go into great detail about how badly he wants to dry fuck my ass while his best friend watches. And we are expected to take it all in stride, smile about it, and be polite back. When we are rude back and tell them to shut the fuck up, rumors about us get spread. THAT is part of the reason so many of us quit.



Obviously not every photographer does this, but it is still a point to be made.

Citation?

Or is it just another stereotype?

Oh, I don't think you're that grouchy or bitter. You seem like a happy enough person.

Nicolette wrote:
To further prove another point others have made... I got this today.


While this is not that bad, it's the kind of shit we put up with, as models, DAILY. We get asked out. Hit on. We're not taken seriously because they "desire" us sometimes. Then people wonder why we have "do not fucking hit on me" on our profiles. I've gotten many like this, many far more vulgar. One went so far as to go into great detail about how badly he wants to dry fuck my ass while his best friend watches. And we are expected to take it all in stride, smile about it, and be polite back. When we are rude back and tell them to shut the fuck up, rumors about us get spread. THAT is part of the reason so many of us quit.



Obviously not every photographer does this, but it is still a point to be made.

Your vulgarity aside, if you can't handle the suggestion of coffee from a co-worker, you're unprepared for life, not just modeling.

So, I should be okay with someone asking me out for coffee because they're attracted to me while I'm trying to work? NO. Just fucking NO.

This person never asked me to shoot. Never acted like they wanted to work. They just wanted a date and NO. I'm not gonna fucking be polite to that. I  can handle it and I was not rude to him, at all. But you telling me that I'm "unprepared for life" because I don't want to be asked on a date in what is supposed to be my working environment makes you part of the problem.

I can be when it comes to work. You didn't do anything to trigger it and I had a great time working with you

But, I have become a bit burnt out on the job in general, and have a tendency to be a bit bitter.

At least he was polite and straight forward about it and not using the "I want to photograph you" as a ruse to get to meet you. But then, MM isn't a dating site true.

Besides, dating a Model? Eeewwww! ;-)

I was very into it. It was my job for 4 years.
I was definitely very dedicated.
Sometimes it just gets killed for you. The end.

No, it's not worthless. Apparently, it's only worthless to you because answering a specific question, as asked, wouldn't afford you the opportunity launch into a lengthy monologue.

If I ask you why BMW's often have transmission problems, it's not relevant to talk about the transmission issues of other manufacturers.

You still really don't get the question. Or you do get the question and just like to blather on endlessly about unrelated things that only you find enlightening.

It wasn't "Why do people give up modeling?" It wasn't "Why do females models give up modeling earlier than male counterparts?" There need not be a control group to discuss why female models give it up.

Hey, let's talk about Fit Modeling now.

Yes, he was polite. I was polite back to him. But at the same time, I don't appreciate someone messaging me to ask me out when I'm not here to date. If I wanted dates or sex, I'd join OKCupid.
But I don't want that. I am here to work. I wouldn't appreciate a coworker in another job asking me out when I'm trying to work either. This is no different.

Yes, I've dated people in industry. But they are people I was friends with first.

No, you travelled around the country doing nothing but modelling because you're kind of flip flopping on this whole thing.

OBVIOUSLY. This was totes just a hobby for me. I was never super cereal about it.

If an agency already has a 5'10" blonde that is not retiring any time soon, and you're a 5'10" blonde, you're probably shit outta luck unless you find another agency, that model does end up retiring, or ???profit.

If you're an art model and there's nothing that really sets you apart physically, you can probably find some work and maybe get "in" with local schools, but it's still a very hard world to work in, especially in NYC. To even get into many art schools and art groups you have to audition; if you can't "wow" someone in 2 minutes, you're not working.

I can be as dedicated as I want, sometimes things just don't work out.

To be a successful (and profitable) at anything, especially in the creative fields, it helps to read and learn how those before you successfully did it. Few are successful JUST being on sites like MM and almost none are just "discovered".

Modeling is a Profession, and like any other profession there are things that work and things that don't. Many models (girls & guys) aren't seeing it that way.Too much of the ANTM and not enough of the "paying ones dues".

I gotta say very naïve of you to not grasp what she is getting at, that was not simply a suggestion of coffee from a co-worker........there is a big difference......that was a photographer attempting to ask her out on a date of sorts. In fact the photographer himself makes mention of how this is against mm rules but I'm going to ask anyway sort of thing because I would regret not doing so. Models should not have to put up with constantly being hit on in a "work environment" especially if done rudely but not at all. I could see how that could be frustrating.   

I was just talking to a model friend recently with her fiancée and she was telling me about a common occurrence at shoots where directors, photographers, assistants some guy on set etc will eventually go to the extent of looking at her engagement ring, making a comment about oh your getting married huh, and she says the most said line to her after that is "I will buy you a bigger diamond". Like cmon really? Never seen a pretty girl before or something? blows my mind how some people act.

Thank you. I admit, this one was not rude. I gave a very polite, "no thank you, have a boyfriend and not here to date" response back. But I'm glad someone can understand how frustrating it is to get those messages regularly. I've had people ask me out. Tell me in detail how they'd like to fuck me. Ask me to be their sugar baby. Ask me to be their sub. And just no. I'm not going to tolerate that in a work environment. That's akin to my boss asking me out at work because why the fuck not. It's not acceptable in any other job. Why would it be here?

Coffee to discuss shoot ideas? Acceptable. I may decline because I am busy with school and it's easier to talk about there where I have a record of the ideas discussed, but I won't be upset about that.
Coffee because "you'd regret not asking me?" No. Never. Not happening. Unacceptable.

Not only would be not acceptable just in general in any work environment but in most cases possibly a sexual harassment issue with the guy losing his job specifically if its the boss. In fact many large companies have a no dating other employee policy. Coffee with a co-worker during break whatever happens often, its all in context. His context was obvious you have a right to be upset despite how polite he asked.

I would tend to agree here: i've lost 7 models now because of jealous/insecure b'friends.  On the other side of the coin, as a widow, i've had some lady friends say "if we ever got serious about our relationship. you'd HAVE to give up your photography" Yeah, right: NOT going to happen.  There's also truth in the fact that when the model stops getting the responses they expected, their "passion" drops significantly.  Just my opinion of what i've personally experienced from various "models" ~ m

To be clear, I wasn't so much upset as I was just annoyed. It's tiring to get messages like that and I get them a few times a month.  But yes, that is unacceptable.

I've made friends with photographers I've worked with. We've hung out outside shoots. We've gone for a few beers, for hookah, for movie nights, and the like. But it was done outside the work environment. Totally different scenario.

"widow" or "widower"?

It is entirely relevant if the same transmission problems are a result of factors that also affect the transmission problems of other cars eg cold or hot weather. Of course if someone wants to believe a held prejudice against a BMW when it doesn't start that is up to them . But the truth is when it's minus 25 outside it may not be a BMW issue as other cars won't start either because the transmission fluid gets thick. Many people will want to know the real answers to questions by considering such things.

So my point is ENTIRELY relevant and it is YOU who have hijacked the thread to attack me personally. If you have issues with me someone elses thread is not the place to discuss them. By contrast I have kept on topic.

So IF the same reasons that 'girls'  give it up are the same as the reasons some boys give it up then it is ABSOLUTELY relevant to point that out or you have a sexist assumption. The reason given is that newbie girls do it to brag on facebook etc . when they possibly don't realise what it entails so drop out after a while. Well that could be said about new male models too. So it is NOT the reason why 'girls' give up on it if it is also possibly just as applicable to new male models. Just as likely for a 'boy' to come to MM with a shoot under their belt never get any work and lose interest but later can brag they were once a model. There is no evidence that newbie female models here percentage wise drop out any quicker than male counterparts.

And even professional models of both sexes can usually only stay in a modelling career for a short time too.



There may be however reasons in addition why girls do give it up that male models do not. Intimidation, being hit on, etc have been cited by several models for example. I doubt these are so applicable to male models though there may well be cases where that happens.

Thank you very much, Tony. 

I have said this many times, but when I started modeling at age 44 and immediately getting paid work, a lot of people just couldn't believe it.  Many people asked (and still ask) "how do you do it?"  My answer has always been the same:  answer your emails promptly and pick up the phone when someone calls.  This puts you ahead of all the other models who may have been "first choice." Return voicemail quickly. 

There are photographers all over the country waving hundred dollar bills, but you have to show up to get them.

Just to repeat myself for those hard at hearing.

I packed up one whole closet when I retired. Sold everything to an escort for $200. She was really grateful, loved the stuff, and I needed $200, so...

It was a win-win.

I was a professional model for almost two decades. I retired at 40 because I wanted to retire at the top of my game - and there are few models who can say that at 40. That and because I've made the money that was to be made with it.

Then I moved on to bigger and better things.

There is no expiration date on being a photographer like there is with models or athletes.

Just from my personal point of view, if at any time a boyfriend of mine expressed displeasure with my modeling I pretty much told him to f&*k off. I started out doing only genres up to lingerie, no implied and no nude. When I told a boyfriend of mine that I was very serious about that I was thinking of doing nudes and he told me that we'd never move in together or get married if I did, I immediately had real doubts about him. I tried to convince him but I realized that he didn't have a problem with me being naked in front of a camera. He had a problem with trust issues, and selfishness. He felt that if he married me then my body would belong to him, and would cease to be my property. We broke up.

I chose a husband who admires and respects what I do. He admires me and respects me. Anything I choose to do as a hobby or career is an extension of myself. Plus who's going to argue with having hot pics of wifey?

Any "model" who allows her significant other (male or female) to dictate what they do is not cut out for it for several reasons.

Some of the people I've known who modeled in the past did give it up because of people they dated or married. Some gave it up for health reasons (gained weight and didn't want to be photographed unless they were skinny), had a bad experience with a creepo, moved on to a different career, or just lost interest. It is EXHAUSTING work on both the body and the mind (much like any kind of work that doesn't involve sitting at a desk) but you also have to keep up a near impossible standard of beauty and deal with people with super sensitive egos and things like that. Ugh. I get really "over" it sometimes but then right when I get really fed up to here with one person I have a really AMAZING shoot and then I say, "THIS is why I keep doing it."

One day I'll be old and wrinkly and saggy and tired and no one will want to pay to take pictures of me. When it becomes more expensive for me to model than it would be to stop, then I'll stop.

Totally agree with this one. You start up because you love it, but after a while, no one wants you. And you have to face facts that you can't do it forever.

Totally agree with this one. You start up because you love it, but after a while, no one wants you. And you have to face facts that you can't do it forever.