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Model
Erika Muse
Posts: 284
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


A friend of mine who use to model told me that a model should NEVER be forced to do her own hair and makeup, or to buy the clothes for the photoshoot esp. if she's not getting paid. That everything the model needs should be there upon ARRIVAL because the model's only job is to sell the look and not create it. I've been modeling for only 6 months now, and although i enjoy it and would like to continue i dont see myself making any progress. At first i didn't mind it (because im particular about my hair and makeup), but now it seems to be an all the time thing, and as a broke and unemployed college student it gets frustrating. I keep reassuring myself that one day it will all be worth it, but am i not being assertive enough? Where do i draw the line ??
Jan 31 13 01:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ShotbyRon
Posts: 767
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Your friend USE to model. Why did she quit? That is a poor way of thinking IMO. Maybe that is why she doesn't do it anymore? Of course it depends on the type of shoot. But when you are first starting out. (Yes 6 months is still starting out) then you are going to do TF shoots more then anything. Buy clothing, doing your own make up. Why in the world would a photographer spend the expenses on all this extra stuff for a inexperienced model? It's a 50/50 on if the pictures will even be usable. Now an experienced model, we know what we are going to get. So the extra cost isn't an issue.
Jan 31 13 01:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Erika Muse
Posts: 284
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


ShotbyRon wrote:
Your friend USE to model. Why did she quit? That is a poor way of thinking IMO. Maybe that is why she doesn't do it anymore? Of course it depends on the type of shoot. But when you are first starting out. (Yes 6 months is still starting out) then you are going to do TF shoots more then anything. Buy clothing, doing your own make up. Why in the world would a photographer spend the expenses on all this extra stuff for a inexperienced model? It's a 50/50 on if the pictures will even be usable. Now an experienced model, we know what we are going to get. So the extra cost isn't an issue.

She does makeup now, but what you're saying is exactly what i was thinking. That i need to build a reputation FIRST, but i dont know how long being "new" is suppose to last

Jan 31 13 01:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ShotbyRon
Posts: 767
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Erika Muse wrote:
She does makeup now, but what you're saying is exactly what i was thinking. That i need to build a reputation FIRST, but i dont know how long being "new" is suppose to last

I think your always "new" there is always going to be someone better then you, always something you can learn. I've been doing photography for about 8 months. I'm just now getting paid work on a more regular basis. But I'm nowhere near where I want to be. I still dump money into shoots. I still look to hire professional models.

I get what you are saying though. It's frustrating at times. But if it's something you truly love, you'll keep digging and finding ways to make it work. If money is an issue, ask the photographer if you can bring clothes you already own. See if they are willing to cover your gas. (assuming they contact you) ask them to work with you a bit on cost. Just so it's not an outrageous request I think most people are open to work with each other. At least I am.

BTW I really like your port. I think it's ahead then most people who have only been doing this 6 months. But again this is just my opinion.

Jan 31 13 01:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Silver Mirage
Posts: 1,560
Plainview, Texas, US


Erika Muse wrote:
A friend of mine who use to model told me that a model should NEVER be forced to do her own hair and makeup, or to buy the clothes for the photoshoot esp. if she's not getting paid. That everything the model needs should be there upon ARRIVAL because the model's only job is to sell the look and not create it. I've been modeling for only 6 months now, and although i enjoy it and would like to continue i dont see myself making any progress. At first i didn't mind it (because im particular about my hair and makeup), but now it seems to be an all the time thing, and as a broke and unemployed college student it gets frustrating. I keep reassuring myself that one day it will all be worth it, but am i not being assertive enough? Where do i draw the line ??

You can follow your friend's advice, but it will knock you out of a lot of opportunities.

"What's in it for me?"

That basic, somewhat selfish, question is the first thing I ask myself about almost any offer to work - whether in photography or life in general. Even about whether to go to that party next week. Will I gain enough to justify my time, energy and (possibly) expense?

Of course the return does not have to be cash. It can be a learning experience, cool pictures, a chance to take on a creative challenge, or just something more fun than sitting at home. It could even be a chance to repay a favor or just the satisfaction of helping someone achieve their own goal.

The bottom line is I have to expect to break even or come out ahead in personal satisfaction (That can include money, but not always. I might turn down a paid job just because it seems like an annoying experience.)

As to how long are you "new," thats a hard one. Some people learn and develop much faster than others. Just to pick some numbers, I'd say 2 to 3 years in time. Or maybe working with 20 professional quality photographers. That would put most people up to intermediate level.

If you're looking to make money from modeling many people do that almost from the very beginning, while others take years. In general I'd say if you're not getting a regular flow of paid work within 2 years you're doing something wrong. Keep in mind that a big part of modeling is networking -- getting out and meeting the people in the business. Making the rounds and knocking on doors. An online presence is a big help - MM, Facebook, Twitter and the rest - but you still have to get yourself out there in person to have the best chance.

Coming back to your question, if you have not visited every legitimate agency within a hundred miles at least once you are still a beginnner. If you have been to all of them 3 times each in the last year and you're still not getting work maybe you need to try a different market - or a different career.

Good luck.

Jan 31 13 02:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Erika Muse
Posts: 284
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


Silver Mirage wrote:
You can follow your friend's advice, but it will knock you out of a lot of opportunities.

If you're looking to make money from modeling many people do that almost from the very beginning, while others take years. In general I'd say if you're not getting a regular flow of paid work within 2 years you're doing something wrong. Keep in mind that a big part of modeling is networking -- getting out and meeting the people in the business. Making the rounds and knocking on doors. An online presence is a big help - MM, Facebook, Twitter and the rest - but you still have to get yourself out there in person to have the best chance.

Coming back to your question, if you have not visited every legitimate agency within a hundred miles at least once you are still a beginnner. If you have been to all of them 3 times each in the last year and you're still not getting work maybe you need to try a different market - or a different career.

Good luck.

Thank you, and yes my more introverted nature may be my downfall because i dont go out as much as some of the other models i know, and because of my poor networking skills i miss out on some great opportunities in my city. 

Money wasn't a big deal until i realized i was making more sacrifices than some of the other models i knew (like getting my phone turned off), but i appreciate the advice, and again, thankyou both !!! smile

Jan 31 13 02:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24,315
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


Erika Muse wrote:
A friend of mine who use to model told me that a model should NEVER be forced to do her own hair and makeup, or to buy the clothes for the photoshoot esp. if she's not getting paid. That everything the model needs should be there upon ARRIVAL because the model's only job is to sell the look and not create it.

true stuff, if you are an agency rep'd model doing a commercial job..

Erika Muse wrote:
I've been modeling for only 6 months now, and although i enjoy it and would like to continue i dont see myself making any progress. At first i didn't mind it (because im particular about my hair and makeup), but now it seems to be an all the time thing, and as a broke and unemployed college student it gets frustrating. I keep reassuring myself that one day it will all be worth it, but am i not being assertive enough? Where do i draw the line ??

find a modeling agency that will rep you..if you can't, you may not be a viable commercial/fashion model.

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png

Jan 31 13 03:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
T-D-L
Posts: 10,303
Los Angeles, California, US


True story: even working, well-to-do (i.e. making six-figures annually) models with major agencies sometimes do their own hair, makeup, and bring their own clothes.  Just depends on the shoot and the concept/goals.
Jan 31 13 03:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Brianne L
Posts: 279
OTTSVILLE, Pennsylvania, US


I can understand if the photography is looking to advertise a certain company/clothes, then yeah, that would make sense that they provide you with the wardrobe and whatnot.
Most of my shoots, they were all my own clothes, my own makeup, etc. I do state though in my profile that my wardrobe is pretty limited. However, I'm still "new" so I don't expect to be done up by a makeup artist or to be provided a wardrobe to every photoshoot. Especially trade shoots.
Jan 31 13 03:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Capitol City Boudoir
Posts: 745
Sacramento, California, US


Erika Muse wrote:
A friend of mine who use to model told me that a model should NEVER be forced to do her own hair and makeup, or to buy the clothes for the photoshoot esp. if she's not getting paid. That everything the model needs should be there upon ARRIVAL because the model's only job is to sell the look and not create it. I've been modeling for only 6 months now, and although i enjoy it and would like to continue i dont see myself making any progress. At first i didn't mind it (because im particular about my hair and makeup), but now it seems to be an all the time thing, and as a broke and unemployed college student it gets frustrating. I keep reassuring myself that one day it will all be worth it, but am i not being assertive enough? Where do i draw the line ??

First, I'm a very experienced, seasoned full-time photographer.  I never provide hair, make up or wardrobe for my clients. When the president of a local bank needs new headshots, I don't provide his shirt and tie.  When the president of the local chamber of commerce needs new publicity shots, I don't provide her dress, her hair or her makeup.

I'm not sure where a newbie model gets the idea that the photographer is supposed to provide these things.

Jan 31 13 03:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,320
Salem, Oregon, US


i can't afford to pay MUAs and it's hard to get them on trade unless they're just starting out. and i won't get one for an untested model who might flake. so the model has to do it or has to find her own MUA.

regarding wardrobe i can't stock things people want so i let them bring their own. if i were wealthy i could see taking the model on a shopping trip but alas not rich.

just how it goes for some of us unless a customer is paying for everything.

back when i was getting started i spent freely on the shoots but now i'm just doing them for fun and focused on getting work that pays me.
Jan 31 13 03:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
EdwardKristopher
Posts: 3,375
Tempe, Arizona, US


Erika Muse wrote:
A friend of mine who use to model told me that a model should NEVER be forced to do her own hair and makeup, or to buy the clothes for the photoshoot esp. if she's not getting paid. That everything the model needs should be there upon ARRIVAL because the model's only job is to sell the look and not create it. I've been modeling for only 6 months now, and although i enjoy it and would like to continue i dont see myself making any progress. At first i didn't mind it (because im particular about my hair and makeup), but now it seems to be an all the time thing, and as a broke and unemployed college student it gets frustrating. I keep reassuring myself that one day it will all be worth it, but am i not being assertive enough? Where do i draw the line ??

In the end it's "Whatever the Market will Bear," so when someone is willing to invest in your look or want you to use certain clothing, that's when it will be there for you.  Until then you will usually be on your own to provide...

Jan 31 13 04:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Wardrobe Stylist
The Trousseau
Posts: 469
Alameda, California, US


I sell vintage wedding dresses.  I can do simple hair, but the models' got to be able to do her own make up.  I have a back up supply of dollar store goodies if she forgot something, but really if she can't do her own simple make up, what is she doing in the entertainment/fashion business? 

I often say, very, very few of us are getting rich in this business.  Those who can bring more than their share of talent will get more jobs than those who expect to just do one thing.
Jan 31 13 04:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
D Katz Photography
Posts: 19
Austin, Texas, US


If you're serious about this industry, participate and grow!  Go to flea markets, GoodWill, etc.  Acquire wardrobe and accessories.  Develop and produce looks that will get you noticed. 

If you shoot TFP, work with photographers who have a good style and presentation.  Get images.  Grow your portfolio; cull the weaker images out and add the stronger.  Stay current; evolve; work hard.

Learn how to negotiate.  Develop a business model (how to make money and provide a good product and customer service)

Have fun.

Search for paid gigs (but don't be demeaning or commanding).  Negotiate.  Be professional. Be reliable.  Be resourceful and savvy.   If you develop yourself and your business model, you will succeed.

In my humble opinion smile
D
Jan 31 13 04:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Top Gun Digital
Posts: 1,224
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Erika Muse wrote:
A friend of mine who use to model told me that a model should NEVER be forced to do her own hair and makeup, or to buy the clothes for the photoshoot esp. if she's not getting paid. That everything the model needs should be there upon ARRIVAL because the model's only job is to sell the look and not create it. I've been modeling for only 6 months now, and although i enjoy it and would like to continue i dont see myself making any progress. At first i didn't mind it (because im particular about my hair and makeup), but now it seems to be an all the time thing, and as a broke and unemployed college student it gets frustrating. I keep reassuring myself that one day it will all be worth it, but am i not being assertive enough? Where do i draw the line ??

This depends to a large extent as to where you are planning to position yourself in the modeling world.  The only way these things are likely to be provided is if you're working for an agency and they are dealing with a client with a nice budget.  If you're planning to work with Mr. Average Photographer it's not likely they are going to have the budget to supply a stylist, MUA and wardrobe.

Jan 31 13 04:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Raven-Lily
Posts: 77
Eastbourne, England, United Kingdom


If any model, experienced or not refuses to buy clothes, or refuses to do their own make up/hair, then they may as well give up now.

I have been very very lucky that my best friend is a professional hair stylist and trainee MUA, she cant always join me on shoots but she shows me how to achieve the same look, so i still have to do my own.

Only those who get picked up by the biggest agencies in the world can get away without doing it.

you need to invest time and money or you will fail before you even start.
Jan 31 13 04:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
EdwardKristopher
Posts: 3,375
Tempe, Arizona, US


D Katz Photography wrote:
If you're serious about this industry, participate and grow!  Go to flea markets, GoodWill, etc.  Acquire wardrobe and accessories.  Develop and produce looks that will get you noticed. 

If you shoot TFP, work with photographers who have a good style and presentation.  Get images.  Grow your portfolio; cull the weaker images out and add the stronger.  Stay current; evolve; work hard.

Learn how to negotiate.  Develop a business model (how to make money and provide a good product and customer service)

Have fun.

Search for paid gigs (but don't be demeaning or commanding).  Negotiate.  Be professional. Be reliable.  Be resourceful and savvy.   If you develop yourself and your business model, you will succeed.

In my humble opinion smile
D

+1  Great advice!

Jan 31 13 04:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Erika Muse wrote:
A friend of mine who used to model told me

And there we have it.

I'm (not really) guessing that the main reason she quit was because nobody would work with somebody with such a selfish, shitty attitude!!

I think for my next TF/test shoot, I'm going to insist that the model provides the camera, the studio, the computer for me to retouch on...

Unbelievable!! banghead




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jan 31 13 04:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DarrylPascoePhotography
Posts: 467
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Capitol City Boudoir wrote:

First, I'm a very experienced, seasoned full-time photographer.  I never provide hair, make up or wardrobe for my clients. When the president of a local bank needs new headshots, I don't provide his shirt and tie.  When the president of the local chamber of commerce needs new publicity shots, I don't provide her dress, her hair or her makeup.

I'm not sure where a newbie model gets the idea that the photographer is supposed to provide these things.

I certainly understand this however I will say there is a difference as I will not provide the "client" with any of those things either. They are paying you to do something you go and do what you are paid for, that being said...

If a photographer approaches her on a TF basis to do a shoot, it is not the same thing at all. The model is not your client in this case, it is now a collaboration where both parties are in it for the same reason and one is not paying the other as client and service.

It's the word "never" in the original post that is the problem with that statement. If I approach a model for a shoot I will most definitely have make up and hair for that model unless for some reason she wants to do her own. I prefer to have a team though.

A simple solution to the OP though..........if you are constantly being asked to get the make up hair yourself and you want a make up artist why not do a search for some of the great MUA's etc here on MM and try to find someone willing to do make up on a TF basis with you and the photographer for the shoot. I have mua and hair on TF basis all the time. There are other ways around having to do your own, you just have to put the effort in and if the photographer wont it doesn't leave you "stuck" without. Take the initiative and go and get what you need. smile

Jan 31 13 04:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Erika Muse
Posts: 284
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

And there we have it.

I'm (not really) guessing that the main reason she quit was because nobody would work with somebody with such a selfish, shitty attitude!!

I think for my next TF/test shoot, I'm going to insist that the model provides the camera, the studio, the computer for me to retouch on...

It would not be silly to believe that everyone play their own part:
Makeup Artist: does the makeup
Hair Stylist: does the hair
Wardrobe Stylist: styles the clothes
Model: sells the look
Photographer: captures the look

If a person is so talented that he or she can perforn more than one role, great !

So I would in no way call her statement "selfish and shitty" as you've put it, but maybe unrealistic considering the fact that ,yes, i am a new model who is still learning, and yes, have only been doing TF shoots.  As for her quitting, everyone doesnt fall in love with modeling when they try it.

Jan 31 13 05:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,652
Atlanta, Georgia, US


If a agency llama is doing a commercial fashion shoot then she is llamaing someone's product.

If a agency llama is doing a beauty shoot then again she is still llamaing someone's products.

If an agency llama is doing a test, then she is paying for the photographer/MUA/stylist unless she can do them well herself and save herself some money.

So obviously in some cases this is true, but not always in my expierence.
Jan 31 13 05:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,060
Chicago, Illinois, US


Erika Muse wrote:

It would not be silly to believe that everyone play their own part:
Makeup Artist: does the makeup
Hair Stylist: does the hair
Wardrobe Stylist: styles the clothes
Model: sells the look
Photographer: captures the look

If a person is so talented that he or she can perforn more than one role, great !

So I would in no way call her statement "selfish and shitty" as you've put it, but maybe unrealistic considering the fact that ,yes, i am a new model who is still learning, and yes, have only been doing TF shoots.  As for her quitting, everyone doesnt fall in love with modeling when they try it.

Erika the kinds of things she's talking about are found more with shooters with teams.   They are usually working with fashion agency or commercial agency signed models.   MM is more for hobby photographers.   They won't usually have the budget or desire to pay for MUA and stylists.   Many of the photographers here may expect models to do their own face and hair and too provide clothing.   Unless there is a client involved, models come in many different sizes and heights.   Most of us would go broke buying or having a really large wardrobe for models.

However if this is something you want to do then unless you become signed don't expect photographers with teams.   Try and find local MUA and hit vintage stores or Goodwill for things for shoots if money is limited.   Just so you know at some agency test shoots models do their own make-up and hair.

Jan 31 13 05:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SH PhotographyAndDesign
Posts: 170
Chester, Virginia, US


Erika Muse wrote:
A friend of mine who use to model told me that a model should NEVER be forced to do her own hair and makeup, or to buy the clothes for the photoshoot esp. if she's not getting paid. That everything the model needs should be there upon ARRIVAL because the model's only job is to sell the look and not create it. I've been modeling for only 6 months now, and although i enjoy it and would like to continue i dont see myself making any progress. At first i didn't mind it (because im particular about my hair and makeup), but now it seems to be an all the time thing, and as a broke and unemployed college student it gets frustrating. I keep reassuring myself that one day it will all be worth it, but am i not being assertive enough? Where do i draw the line ??

This kind of makes me laugh. We as photographers spend enough money on our own equipment. Why would we spend extra money for a model's clothing that will more than likely only be used by that ONE model.

As for hair and and MUA. It's usually done on a team basis. There are a lot of photographers that don't work in teams where they can provide this service. Now if a photographer asks you for a certain look, then yes, I can see them being able to provide all of the above.

And since you are just starting out you will be doing A LOT of TF work so don't allow yourself to get discouraged. It is frustrating, so I can see where you are coming from. Everyone goes through this phase be it Model, Photographer, MUA, etc. If this is something that you really want you have to go for it with all you can. It may not seem like you are making progress, but you are! Don't give up, keep your head up.

Jan 31 13 05:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MB JenB
Posts: 2,977
Clarksville, Tennessee, US


Erika Muse wrote:
A friend of mine who use to model told me that a model should NEVER be forced to do her own hair and makeup, or to buy the clothes for the photoshoot esp. if she's not getting paid. That everything the model needs should be there upon ARRIVAL because the model's only job is to sell the look and not create it. I've been modeling for only 6 months now, and although i enjoy it and would like to continue i dont see myself making any progress. At first i didn't mind it (because im particular about my hair and makeup), but now it seems to be an all the time thing, and as a broke and unemployed college student it gets frustrating. I keep reassuring myself that one day it will all be worth it, but am i not being assertive enough? Where do i draw the line ??

Hi,
I'm building my port and giving myself an education in modeling. In all but two shoots I've provided my own wardrobe, (and the other two hired a stylist.) In all but, a few shoots I've done my own make up, (and the other either went without or hired someone...) In all but a couple shoots I've done my own hair.

If I waited for someone else to offer I'd have zero portfolio pictures.

The line your friend is talking about would have drawn me right out of modeling.

Jen

Jan 31 13 05:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,230
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


You can follow your friends advice


OR

You can have a career as a model


You cant do both.
Jan 31 13 05:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images By Joseph
Posts: 885
Naperville, Illinois, US


Capitol City Boudoir wrote:

First, I'm a very experienced, seasoned full-time photographer.  I never provide hair, make up or wardrobe for my clients. When the president of a local bank needs new headshots, I don't provide his shirt and tie.  When the president of the local chamber of commerce needs new publicity shots, I don't provide her dress, her hair or her makeup.

I'm not sure where a newbie model gets the idea that the photographer is supposed to provide these things.

+ 1

Jan 31 13 06:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,984
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Providing Makeup and Wardrobe for the Model are Basics for most shoots however there are occassions where the model might wish to do their own makeup and or bring their own wardrobe
Jan 31 13 06:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Paige Morgan
Posts: 4,058
New York, New York, US


In general, no one is going to provide a team for an untested freelancer until she has paid her dues, built a solid book and proven her reliability. Even after you've done all of that, there will still be days where you will have to do your own styling, make up or whatever.

Such is life for a freelancer.



The situation your friend is describing generally only applies to well booking, agency signed models working for big money commercial clients.
Jan 31 13 06:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Erika Muse wrote:
It would not be silly to believe that everyone play their own part:
Makeup Artist: does the makeup
Hair Stylist: does the hair
Wardrobe Stylist: styles the clothes

Model: sells the look
Photographer: captures the look

And if we don't have a MUA, hair or wardrobe stylist, presumably because neither the model nor the photographer can (or wants to) afford to pay them, then where does that leave the shoot?

Do you shoot art nudes?  wink



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Jan 31 13 06:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Erika Muse
Posts: 284
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


Capitol City Boudoir wrote:
First, I'm a very experienced, seasoned full-time photographer.  I never provide hair, make up or wardrobe for my clients. When the president of a local bank needs new headshots, I don't provide his shirt and tie.  When the president of the local chamber of commerce needs new publicity shots, I don't provide her dress, her hair or her makeup.

I'm not sure where a newbie model gets the idea that the photographer is supposed to provide these things.

Im not exactly sure what you are saying....if you are saying that you have never come out of your pocket to pay for a model's wardrobe (which in the examples you have provided i would assume these president's would have that sort of attire and would not need a stylist), in which case you have misunderstood what i am saying.

It also seems as if you are accusing me for a statement my friend has made out of pure concern for me and the work i've been putting into modeling thus far. I am here to ask questions, to grow and to learn, not to insult anyone or to be insulted.

Jan 31 13 06:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Erika Muse
Posts: 284
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
And if we don't have a MUA, hair or wardrobe stylist, presumably because neither the model nor the photographer can (or wants to) afford to pay them, then where does that leave the shoot?

Do you shoot art nudes?  wink



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Lol at some point yes, i want to shoot artistic and anonymous nudes (i think its obvious that i'm leaning towards that genre) smile

& Luckily any photographer who shoots with me has a model who does her own hair and makeup, my friend's comment just made me believe that i was doing something wrong.

Jan 31 13 06:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,863
Olivet, Michigan, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
And if we don't have a MUA, hair or wardrobe stylist, presumably because neither the model nor the photographer can (or wants to) afford to pay them, then where does that leave the shoot?

Do you shoot art nudes?  wink



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Art nude shoot (with an "agency stats" model).  (18+) She did hair and makeup.  Maybe not a professional level, but she came with a really nice kit and did a good job.

http://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/25760489

Jan 31 13 06:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
NicoleNudes
Posts: 3,815
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Well are you trying to do this professionally or as a hobby?

If its professionally then go to an agency and see of they like you.

If its a hobby then, no, everything isn't going to be laid out on a silver platter for you. 99% of the time I use my own clothes for a shoot. (When I don't shoot nudes). And a large majority of the time I also do my own hair and makeup.

One thing you need to learn is that the majority of people on here are hobbyists. I'd learn how to do your own makeup and hair, because if you want to get hired off of here being able to do both are going to be a HUGE asset. If you look at any of the very popular models on here they ALL can do their own makeup and hair.

Something to think about.
Jan 31 13 06:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8,251
Tucson, Arizona, US


Well, yeah, no one should be FORCED to do anything at all...
Jan 31 13 06:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 2,943
Royal Oak, Michigan, US


That is only true when you are modeling for a client.  Any time you are creating photos that may be featured in your portfolio, you better be 100% invested in making the best images or its not worth it at all.  If you are not ready to bring your A game and assist in decisions and invest or provide the elements that make your photos professional-then quit now.  You have to compete everyday with models that are giving it their all.
Jan 31 13 06:54 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,064
New York, New York, US


It really depends to a large degree on the nature of the shoot.

If you (and the photographer) are working as an employee, where a third party (the client) will receive all the financial risk and benefit and therefore makes all the decisions then that third party will provide everything, although that providing may be in the form of renting clothing or props that you or the photographer have from you and reflecting the value of that rental in the final agreed upon price.  This approach might also be the case when you are working as an entrepreneur, competitively bidding for the job and agreeing to bring certain elements to the project as part of the bid.

If the shoot is speculative, such as in order to produce a book or a gallery showing, where there may or may not be any income developed, or in the case of a TF* shoot, who provides what is a matter of negotiation.  There is no right way or wrong way or "standard" way; there is only the way that the parties involved agree on.

As a model, you are ultimately an entrepreneur.  You have a business (you) and you decide how you want to run it and that includes what and when you will charge, how much and for what.  The person who patronizes your business, be that a photographer, painter or other client, will decide what they will pay and for what.

There is no right way and no wrong way.  There is no right time and no wrong time.  It's all up to you and the marketplace.
Jan 31 13 07:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jordan L Duncan
Posts: 207
Jacksonville, Florida, US


Erika Muse wrote:
A friend of mine who use to model told me that a model should NEVER be forced to do her own hair and makeup, or to buy the clothes for the photoshoot esp. if she's not getting paid. That everything the model needs should be there upon ARRIVAL because the model's only job is to sell the look and not create it. I've been modeling for only 6 months now, and although i enjoy it and would like to continue i dont see myself making any progress. At first i didn't mind it (because im particular about my hair and makeup), but now it seems to be an all the time thing, and as a broke and unemployed college student it gets frustrating. I keep reassuring myself that one day it will all be worth it, but am i not being assertive enough? Where do i draw the line ??

Was she an agency model? If so, then yes, an agency model can expect that. But many times an agency model will probably still have to sometimes do her own makeup and also provide shoes. Shoes are something wardrobe people don't always provide since its a PITA to bring a million pairs of shoes in a million sizes.

BUT after reading an excerpt from Grace Coddington's book (a very successful model during the 60's-70's who now works for Vogue) she, and MANY other models were required on almost all of their shoots to provide all styling, and they practically lived out of rolling suitcases with shoes and clothes and makeup all stashed inside. Even Twiggy did her own makeup. It was just something you had to know how to do back then, and you simply couldn't model without that knowledge. Period.

Nowadays with Internet modeling its different. You have to expect different things if you expect to get work.

A model who can do her own hair and makeup can ask for more money and market herself better because the photographer will save money and not have to pay for a makeup artist and hair stylist. I respect stylists and I definitely prefer to have them at my shoots, but a photographer will not always be willing to spend the money.

When a photographer contacts me for a shoot, I tell him what clothes I have, and sometimes send pics. If they are not satisfactory, he can either buy the clothes he wants me to wear himself (I provide measurements for him) OR he can tell me exactly what he wants me to purchase and I'll buy it. BUT if its for a TF shoot, then I ask to be compensated for what I had to spend on wardrobe. I can't wear the same outfit for multiple shoots, because then I'll have ton of pictures from different photographers of me wearing the exact same thing. That doesn't exactly show versatility. So its not like I'd get to keep the clothes and wear them again, especially if its something I don't like or couldn't wear out on the street such as lingerie or fetish wear or whatever. I show him the receipts for what I had to purchase and then we work out a method of compensation. It might be to pay the full amount and then I let him have it so he can let a different model wear it, or he might pay half the amount and then I keep it myself and sell it or something. It depends. If its something I would wear myself then I don't worry about it because then all it means to me is that I had an excuse to go shopping.

If you are a new model, then expect to work with new photographers unless you can pay. Photographers will pay a model who has more experience than they do, but will only TF with models who have the same skill level or less. I TF with amazing photographers all the time but right now the only ones paying me are new people who need a decent model to help them get their ports off on the right foot, and people who have me in mind for specific projects. 

6 months is not a long time in the grand scheme. It takes YEARS to build up a strong base of contacts and a reputation for quality work. Keep working at it and building your networks.

Jan 31 13 08:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Frozen Instant Imagery
Posts: 3,684
Dublin, Dublin, Ireland


I have found something different. I found that I needed to hire an MUA for the less experienced models, because they weren't all that good with photographic makeup; I don't need to hire an MUA for the most experienced models, because they were fully capable of doing their own...

Can't comment on wardrobe - I mostly shoot nudes, which kinda avoids the issue smile
Jan 31 13 09:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Nelson Photograph
Posts: 348
Eau Claire, Wisconsin, US


Capitol City Boudoir wrote:

Erika Muse wrote:
A friend of mine who use to model told me that a model should NEVER be forced to do her own hair and makeup, or to buy the clothes for the photoshoot esp. if she's not getting paid. That everything the model needs should be there upon ARRIVAL because the model's only job is to sell the look and not create it. I've been modeling for only 6 months now, and although i enjoy it and would like to continue i dont see myself making any progress. At first i didn't mind it (because im particular about my hair and makeup), but now it seems to be an all the time thing, and as a broke and unemployed college student it gets frustrating. I keep reassuring myself that one day it will all be worth it, but am i not being assertive enough? Where do i draw the line ??

First, I'm a very experienced, seasoned full-time photographer.  I never provide hair, make up or wardrobe for my clients. When the president of a local bank needs new headshots, I don't provide his shirt and tie.  When the president of the local chamber of commerce needs new publicity shots, I don't provide her dress, her hair or her makeup.

I'm not sure where a newbie model gets the idea that the photographer is supposed to provide these things. [/quo

Jan 31 13 09:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DavidCoward Photography
Posts: 629
Sandy Springs, Georgia, US


NicoleNudes wrote:
Well are you trying to do this professionally or as a hobby?

If its professionally then go to an agency and see of they like you.

If its a hobby then, no, everything isn't going to be laid out on a silver platter for you. 99% of the time I use my own clothes for a shoot. (When I don't shoot nudes). And a large majority of the time I also do my own hair and makeup.

One thing you need to learn is that the majority of people on here are hobbyists. I'd learn how to do your own makeup and hair, because if you want to get hired off of here being able to do both are going to be a HUGE asset. If you look at any of the very popular models on here they ALL can do their own makeup and hair.

Something to think about.

And that's the key question.

I'm a hobbyist, working alone unless I can find someone to hold a reflector for me. Although I've had a few small paid gigs, I primarily do this as a creative outlet. I can't afford to pay for a MUA and for a wardrobe that will be used once. The models I work with have to come ready to shoot. For this reason, I also mostly work with models with little experience who are trying to grow their portfolios.

As you build your experience and your port, you should be in a better position to expect to work with teams and have less out-of-pocket expenses.

Best of luck!

Jan 31 13 10:06 pm  Link  Quote 
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