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Model
Erika Muse
Posts: 284
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


I signed a model release after a photoshoot some months back and i have yet to see the photos.

I know i have no right to what the photos will be used for after i sign, but does that also mean the photographer can keep them from me as long as he wants?
Jan 31 13 06:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,620
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


Whether or not you receive photos depends entirely on the agreement you had with your photographer. For example, if you were paid, the photographer would probably have no obligation to send you photos at all. If you had a TFP (trade for photos) arrangement, you have a right to expect some photos within a reasonable time. Contact your photographer again and ask (nicely) when you can expect a return for your work.

EDIT:
You should usually check with models who have worked with a photographer you are planning on working with to find out what their experience has been. Receiving pictures back from TFP arrangements can sometimes be a problem, so check references before you agree to anything.

A guideline? I usually send models anywhere from 20 to 30 finished photos for a half day TFP shoot and they always receive them within two weeks of the shoot.
Jan 31 13 07:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,781
Olivet, Michigan, US


Erika Muse wrote:
I signed a model release after a photoshoot some months back and i have yet to see the photos.

I know i have no right to what the photos will be used for after i sign, but does that also mean the photographer can keep them from me as long as he wants?

The model release has nothing to do with you getting, or not getting, photos.  Except that some people won't do the shoot without one.

Whether you should get pictures depends on the agreement you made; whether you DO get them depends on the photographer.  Sadly, some don't honor their commitments.

Jan 31 13 07:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Did you read the release?
Jan 31 13 07:19 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,712
San Francisco, California, US


Art of the nude wrote:
The model release has nothing to do with you getting, or not getting, photos.  Except that some people won't do the shoot without one.

Whether you should get pictures depends on the agreement you made; whether you DO get them depends on the photographer.  Sadly, some don't honor their commitments.

QFT
/end thread

Jan 31 13 07:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Erika Muse
Posts: 284
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


GPS Studio Services wrote:

QFT
/end thread

sad

Jan 31 13 07:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Erika Muse
Posts: 284
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


*deep sigh
Jan 31 13 07:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Zack Zoll
Posts: 2,272
Glens Falls, New York, US


Have you tried writing the photographer?  I know I always put TF stuff on the back burner, and if I'm really busy I might totally forget about it.  There have been times when I've let TF stuff go for a couple months before the model wrote me, and I remembered that I had to put the disc in the mail.
Jan 31 13 07:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Erika Muse
Posts: 284
Raleigh, North Carolina, US


Zack Zoll wrote:
Have you tried writing the photographer?  I know I always put TF stuff on the back burner, and if I'm really busy I might totally forget about it.  There have been times when I've let TF stuff go for a couple months before the model wrote me, and I remembered that I had to put the disc in the mail.

We've talked about it....over and over again. We've hung out many times outside of the studio and he "allowed" me to see the photos on the computer but I have not gotten a chance to add them to my portfolio.

Jan 31 13 07:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,620
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


Erika Muse wrote:
We've talked about it....over and over again. We've hung out many times outside of the studio and he "allowed" me to see the photos on the computer but I have not gotten a chance to add them to my portfolio.

Sounds like this photographers is using your pics as bait. Decide whether you want to continue seeing him socially or whether you actually want the photos.

Jan 31 13 08:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jojo West
Posts: 972
Silver Spring, Maryland, US


Since she asked...I feel the need to confirm something.

If the photographer does not have a signed model release from you, they can't use their images, well at least not legally, right?
Feb 01 13 07:30 am  Link  Quote 
Model
angel emily
Posts: 1,020
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Jojo West wrote:
Since she asked...I feel the need to confirm something.

If the photographer does not have a signed model release from you, they can't use their images, well at least not legally, right?

They can use them for some things.

They cannot be used for commercial advertising.

Laws vary, but this is in general.

I only sign a release if I'm paid (for commercial ad) or shooting for publication submission (unpaid). smile    And I hardly ever see the final results, unless someone points it out to me or I make an effort to find it (commercial/ad); the production team and client is busy, they often don't have time to track down the talent they used months ago to tell them 'hey, the ad ran - take a look!' ...

Feb 01 13 07:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
D-Light
Posts: 551
Newcastle, Limerick, Ireland


In my case, if I paid you, I don't supply any prints. I will sometimes provide copies for your portfolio but that will be agreed on the day.

In the case of TFP, I always supply images, prints or electronic, depending on the agreement. Sometimes it can take a while, my paying clients must get priority.

The model release has no bearing on the supply of prints, if it's a paid shoot, unless the prints are in part payment for the shoot.
Feb 01 13 08:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,215
Salem, Oregon, US


there are different kinds of llama releases. some are just for self-promotion only. always get a copy.

if they haven't delivered the images in a few months then send them an invoice for your time. they can either pay you in cash or images. their choice.
Feb 01 13 09:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Harold Rose
Posts: 2,925
Calhoun, Georgia, US


Erika Muse wrote:
I signed a model release after a photoshoot some months back and i have yet to see the photos.

I know i have no right to what the photos will be used for after i sign, but does that also mean the photographer can keep them from me as long as he wants?

Totally up to the agreement on the release...

Feb 01 13 09:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Yan Tan Tethera
Posts: 4,155
Biggleswade, England, United Kingdom


twoharts wrote:
if they haven't delivered the images in a few months then send them an invoice for your time. they can either pay you in cash or images. their choice.

Make sure you're registered with the right authorities ( tax etc ) before you start writing invoices out .....................

Feb 01 13 09:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 20,883
Portland, Oregon, US


Art of the nude wrote:
The model release has nothing to do with you getting, or not getting, photos.  Except that some people won't do the shoot without one.

Whether you should get pictures depends on the agreement you made; whether you DO get them depends on the photographer.  Sadly, some don't honor their commitments.

Mostly true.

But in a "typical" TF* arrangement, the model is compensated with images and an implied limited usage license regulating how the model may use the image.

Most model releases I've seen start with verbiage that says something like... "In return for valuable consideration of my engagement as a model, I hereby grant the photographer..."  I suspect that it could be argued that if the photographer fails to deliver the compensation that is agreed upon, the model release could be considered invalid (or at least incomplete).  That might mean that the photographer does not have the right to use the model's likeness until he fulfills the terms of his agreement with the model.

But in practice,
...  All of us should take steps to ensure that we work with reliable people, and
...  The best way to ensure reliability is to check references.
...  The best way to check references is to form relationships with your local
     photographic community and ask them for references.
...  If a photographer fails to deliver promised photos, there's not a lot a model
     can do about it.
...  It is always a good idea to document your agreement in detail in some form.

Feb 01 13 09:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marc Damon
Posts: 6,562
Biloxi, Mississippi, US


Read this.
http://www.newmodels.com/Releases.html

and this.
http://www.newmodels.com/Usage.html

In the US, this is the world in which we live, regardless of whether you're signed with an agency or not, regardless of your agreement with the photographer for images you will get, regardless of TF* or any other type of compensation offered. The basics of copyright law don't change. He clicked it therefore he owns it. You own your likeness and the right to use it.
Feb 01 13 11:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MN camera
Posts: 1,860
Saint Paul, Minnesota, US


The shoot proceeds.
Feb 01 13 11:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RacerXPhoto
Posts: 2,460
Brooklyn, New York, US


Did the OP state the terms for this shoot ??
If it was a commercial job that she was paid for
She should not expect to get images
Feb 01 13 11:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,425
Belmont, California, US


Erika Muse wrote:
We've talked about it....over and over again. We've hung out many times outside of the studio and he "allowed" me to see the photos on the computer but I have not gotten a chance to add them to my portfolio.

I'm trying to envision this: you're both standing next to his computer looking at the photos. You are ewwwing and awwwing and emphatically ask, "These look great! When can you send me some?"

What happens next? He doesn't respond? If not, lean in a little closer next time.

Feb 01 13 11:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Jojo West wrote:
Since she asked...I feel the need to confirm something.

If the photographer does not have a signed model release from you, they can't use their images, well at least not legally, right?

In Canada the photographer automatically owns the copyrite, even if the work is commissioned. A release is not needed, but I still have a contract that covers all details anyways.

Feb 01 13 11:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


A time for prints is basic you have an agreement with photographer to shoot for TRADE his photography time for your modeling time. If the agreement is virble then you have to wait and expect he or her to stand by that agreement. If you have a model release form which states he or she will give you images a set time or day for your modeling time and you do not get any images as such you can take them to small claims other than that your screwed.
Feb 01 13 12:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SG-4 Photography
Posts: 119
Washington, District of Columbia, US


ForeverFotos wrote:

Sounds like this photographers is using your pics as bait. Decide whether you want to continue seeing him socially or whether you actually want the photos.

Sorry MUSE,

It sounds to me like you're getting handled, played, deceived, conned....

Business is business and personal is personal.  It is a tangled weave when the line between the two becomes blurred. 

The photographer is either dealing with you out of integrity or he is not.  It sounds like he is not.

It sounds like this one needs to be filed under "Lessons Learned".

-B

Feb 25 13 12:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Melodye Joy
Posts: 542
Rancho Cucamonga, California, US


M U S E wrote:
I signed a llama release after a photoshoot some months back and i have yet to see the photos.

I know i have no right to what the photos will be used for after i sign, but does that also mean the photographer can keep them from me as long as he wants?

Did your read the agreement before you signed? Or did you assume it to be as basic, "I X confirm that photographer Y can use my likeness for promotion, publication or any other photographic/art form they choose."

Some llama releases will state the photographer has a turn around time of 48hrs/1 week/2 weeks/3 months...

Some releases state that your involvement under TF status was agreed upon, but no images HAVE to be distributed, edited or otherwise.

I personally scan each release because I have come across similar situations, in TF and PAID (for) shoots. Most photographers are good about giving images, edited or unedited wither its in the "release" or not. Especially for TF work, because we all took our personal time out to get the concept accomplished.

Perhaps at this point, you may want to consider letting this be a learning curve, not expect a thing back and if photos show up..great. If not, it's been over and done with. Notes taken and next time, you will be all the more savvy.

Good luck to ya!

Feb 25 13 12:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
PhotographybyT
Posts: 7,604
Monterey, California, US


Toto Photo wrote:

I'm trying to envision this: you're both standing next to his computer looking at the photos. You are ewwwing and awwwing and emphatically ask, "These look great! When can you send me some?"

What happens next? He doesn't respond? If not, lean in a little closer next time.

Works for me...every time! tongue

Feb 25 13 12:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Caitin Bre
Posts: 1,798
Naperville, Illinois, US


Yan Tan Tethera wrote:
Make sure you're registered with the right authorities ( tax etc ) before you start writing invoices out .....................

In the U.S. you can invoice anyone for anything from your own name.
You can start a business simply by a DBA publication for a couple of weeks. And you can use your SSN as your tax ID number.

Remember the Boston Tea Party? lol

Feb 25 13 03:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Virtual Studio
Posts: 5,504
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Art of the nude wrote:
The model release has nothing to do with you getting, or not getting, photos.  Except that some people won't do the shoot without one.

Whether you should get pictures depends on the agreement you made; whether you DO get them depends on the photographer.  Sadly, some don't honor their commitments.

kinda right.

Most model releases talk about "consideration" and in a TFP shoot this is clearly the prints.

So - the model probably has grounds to sue depending on the exact release.

Feb 25 13 07:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,122
Orlando, Florida, US


DAN CRUIKSHANK wrote:
Did you read the release?

I'm surprised that anything happened after this post.

The answers to your question are within the release that you signed.  Had you read it, you'd know.  If you didn't read it, drink twice for being stupid.

Some people here are giving you real answers, but not the actual right answers relevant to the release you signed.

In the future, it's perfectly reasonable for you to ask for a copy of the release.  You can even ask for a copy of THIS release in question that you signed.  The photographer should still have it in their possession.

Feb 25 13 07:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,286
Atlanta, Georgia, US


The two are unrelated.  A release allows the photographer certain specific usage regarding some commercial situations that can differ by state.

Your agreement regarding the trade is another thing completely
Feb 25 13 07:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Virtual Studio
Posts: 5,504
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


AJScalzitti wrote:
The two are unrelated.  A release allows the photographer certain specific usage regarding some commercial situations that can differ by state.

Your agreement regarding the trade is another thing completely

Maybe, maybe not.

Most releases specify consideration - they are contracts swapping something for the rights to use the photos. In a TFP shoot then the TF* part could well be contractual provision of the release.

She needs to read the release contract.

Feb 25 13 08:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,286
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Virtual Studio wrote:

Mayne, maybe not.

Most releases specify consideration - they are contracts swapping something for the rights to use the photos. In a TFP shoot then the TF* part could well be contractual provision of the release.

She needs to read the release contract.

Hence my comment differ  by state, my lawyer recommend keeping them as two documents.  After all a commercial client will need a copy of the release but has no need to know your intimate business practices and arrangements.

Feb 25 13 08:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mark
Posts: 2,889
New York, New York, US


It means that what ever terms stated in the contract will be in effect.
Feb 25 13 08:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,263
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


Caitin   wrote:
Remember the Boston Tea Party? lol

Yes - thousands of innocent people died as a result, we lost a valuable Colony, you lost valuable trade agreements and the best Monarch you'd ever had, even though he was bonkers; the rich people who wrote the Declaration of Independence got richer and the ordinary folk who did the fighting and dying got the same bucket of shit with a different flag on it.

Handy Hint - next time you want to make tea, don't use sea-water... big_smile

To the OP - as others are saying, the Release does nothing to guarantee you get images - it only serves to protect the photographer. Only the terms of the Usage Agreement (which ought be a separate document for the sake of clarity, though often it's folded into the Release for convenience) can do that - assuming those terms are included - and even then if the photographer's a dick, he still may not come through...

But as Caitin quite rightly points out, you don't need to be tax-registered to issue an invoice - you don't even need to be paying tax at all: if you're a self-employed person earning below the tax-threshold you can still issue invoices - in fact you should get some kind of paperwork trail organised for any shoot you do...

Feb 26 13 10:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Virtual Studio
Posts: 5,504
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


AJScalzitti wrote:

Hence my comment differ  by state, my lawyer recommend keeping them as two documents.  After all a commercial client will need a copy of the release but has no need to know your intimate business practices and arrangements.

Exactly right. Almost always better to have two separate documents if you are trying to accomplish two things. Even on TFP shoot I know people who pay the model $1 just to satisfy the consideration clause - then have a separate agreement on the isage rights for the images.

Feb 26 13 06:16 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,712
San Francisco, California, US


AJScalzitti wrote:
Hence my comment differ  by state, my lawyer recommend keeping them as two documents.  After all a commercial client will need a copy of the release but has no need to know your intimate business practices and arrangements.
Virtual Studio wrote:
Exactly right. Almost always better to have two separate documents if you are trying to accomplish two things. Even on TFP shoot I know people who pay the model $1 just to satisfy the consideration clause - then have a separate agreement on the isage rights for the images.

Actually, you will get different lawyers recommending different things in different situations.  Lawyers often prefer to have a single document whenever possible.  It minimizes the possibility of a conflict of terms or conditions.  Even though they are separate documents with separate purposes, they arise from the same transaction.  Ambiguity could apply across documents depending on the situation.

On the other hand, for a matter of convenience, the client will generally only need to see the release and not the license (unless you are granting them an exclusive license, in which case it would be relevant).  So, as a practical matter, it is better to have them in two separate documents.

We have one attorney here that does a lot of TF and swears by his single document.  He doesn't want to deal with multiple agreements.

So, to me the bottom line is that separate documents are more convenient.  They are only better if they are properly drafted by someone competent to avoid conflicts and ambiguity.  Then again, no single document is good if it is badly written either.

In the end, whatever you do, it needs to be drafted by someone competent to do so.

Feb 26 13 07:57 pm  Link  Quote 
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