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Photographer
1k-words-photograpy
Posts: 276
Leesburg, Virginia, US


ArtisticGlamour wrote:
.....

typical TF shoot:}

Model: "Love your work, can we shoot on Tuesday?"

Photographer: "Hey, I would love to shoot with you, do you have any concepts or do you want to work on my current tribal-primitive project?"

Model: "Yeah, sounds great...I'll see you Tuesday."[/quote wrote:


THIS!

Ladies there are lots of things you can do to help but the main idea is that you also bring ideas to the table for what you want in a session. I've spent the weekend trying to set up three TFCDs and have been frustrated beyond belief. I'd love to make a simple suggestion that helps me, I can not frankly tell you if it helps other photographers or not.

Ladies I'd love for more of you to be able to discuss what you want out of a TFCD. When I look at models for TF the ones I pick are the ones that I see and instantly get a picture (or two or three) in my head that I want to shoot with her.  If its TF then I want to express that vision to you and also have you talk to me about the shots that you've always wanted to do but haven't done. Because your ideas feed mine, mine feed yours and we go from a couple of planned pictures to a thousand possible images. We also have a session we are both excited about shooting because we shaped it to a shared vision. And that passion translates into excellent pictures.

I want you to bring something to the table more than your physical presence. I think most photographers want that. And you should want it for yourself because the ability to work with others to shape a vision not only helps you as a model, it helps you at any position in this field and pretty much in any field that doesn't involve asking customers if they want to supersize.

Feb 04 13 07:31 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,669
New York, New York, US


Hear! Hear!

Makes life so much more productive and so much more fun.  That's one of the many reasons for face-to-face meetings before the shoot.
Feb 04 13 10:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HO Photo
Posts: 392
Los Angeles, California, US


Ladies I'd love for more of you to be able to discuss what you want out of a TFCD. When I look at models for TF the ones I pick are the ones that I see and instantly get a picture (or two or three) in my head that I want to shoot with her.  If its TF then I want to express that vision to you and also have you talk to me about the shots that you've always wanted to do but haven't done. Because your ideas feed mine, mine feed yours and we go from a couple of planned pictures to a thousand possible images. We also have a session we are both excited about shooting because we shaped it to a shared vision. And that passion translates into excellent pictures.

I want you to bring something to the table more than your physical presence. I think most photographers want that. And you should want it for yourself because the ability to work with others to shape a vision not only helps you as a model, it helps you at any position in this field and pretty much in any field that doesn't involve asking customers if they want to supersize.

+ a zilly

Feb 04 13 12:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


wink LOL! +1

Having a good collaboration and communication is the KEY to a good TF shoot. How else can the model get what she wants, AND the model's "connection" is what shows FIRST in every image.

To me, it's more important than "perfect" lighting, or great Tits+Ass. It's the eyes that "connect" first. THEN all that other stuff.
Feb 04 13 12:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,618
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


1k-words-photograpy wrote:

It could be worse, maybe something like this ......

Model: "Love your work, can we shoot on Tuesday?"

Photographer: "Hey, I would love to shoot with you, do you have any concepts or do you want to work on my current tribal-primitive project?"

Model: "Yeah, I have this great idea where I'm wrapped in caution tape, holding a guitar and wearing a gas mask while I'm tied to some railroad tracks. What do ya think?"

Photographer: ummmmm, wait a minute! My wife just reminded me that we have to visit her mother in Albuquerque that day. I'll get back with ya.

Feb 04 13 01:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


ForeverFotos wrote:
Photographer: ummmmm, wait a minute! My wife just reminded me that we have to visit her mother in Albuquerque that day. I'll get back with ya.

LOL! I always have to vacuum the hairballs out from under my couch on "caution tape" days. LOL! +1

Feb 04 13 01:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jojo West
Posts: 969
Silver Spring, Maryland, US


ArtisticGlamour wrote:
wink LOL! +1

Having a good collaboration and communication is the KEY to a good TF shoot. How else can the model get what she wants, AND the model's "connection" is what shows FIRST in every image.

To me, it's more important than "perfect" lighting, or great Tits+Ass. It's the eyes that "connect" first. THEN all that other stuff.

Feb 04 13 02:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
1k-words-photograpy
Posts: 276
Leesburg, Virginia, US


ForeverFotos wrote:
It could be worse, maybe something like this ......

Model: "Love your work, can we shoot on Tuesday?"

Photographer: "Hey, I would love to shoot with you, do you have any concepts or do you want to work on my current tribal-primitive project?"

Model: "Yeah, I have this great idea where I'm wrapped in caution tape, holding a guitar and wearing a gas mask while I'm tied to some railroad tracks. What do ya think?"

Photographer: ummmmm, wait a minute! My wife just reminded me that we have to visit her mother in Albuquerque that day. I'll get back with ya.

Thats not so bad I suppose. I mean I have no interest in shooting it but its not the most horrible idea that could come up. Typically when I hear an idea I don't like for TF I try to figure out how we can shoot it in a way I like better "Thats edgy, I like the idea of the caution tape but can't we come up with a better way to show confinement and danger rather than on train tracks? And why did I hook up with such a beautiful model only to cover her face in a gas mask?" At the end of the day you meet some folks you just can't work with but you still give it that old college try.

Collaboration doesn't mean "hey I'm going to do whatever you ask" its more of a "let's find the things that we agree on" kind of approach.

It may be the architect in me but I try to figure out how much time we will have in the session and then I divide that into a number of achievable shots we want to walk out of the session with. If I'm footing the entire bill for studio time and such then I'll typically want my ideas to feature more prominently in our shoot, say 80%. If she is splitting the bill with me or contributing in other ways (bringing an MUA or an extensive wardrobe or set of props for example) then its a more 50/50 ratio.

Again this is just me. One of the most fantastic things about photography as a business is that your process only has to fit you, your customers and your models.

Feb 04 13 02:33 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,669
New York, New York, US


ForeverFotos wrote:

It could be worse, maybe something like this ......

Model: "Love your work, can we shoot on Tuesday?"

Photographer: "Hey, I would love to shoot with you, do you have any concepts or do you want to work on my current tribal-primitive project?"

Model: "Yeah, I have this great idea where I'm wrapped in caution tape, holding a guitar and wearing a gas mask while I'm tied to some railroad tracks. What do ya think?"

Photographer: ummmmm, wait a minute! My wife just reminded me that we have to visit her mother in Albuquerque that day. I'll get back with ya.

On the other hand you might consider it an opportunity to:
--Find ways to rework old ideas
--Combine them to create a Super-Cliche
--Gently educate a newbie
--Earn merit in Heaven as Sister Mary Elephant (my first frade teacher) used to say.

(Anything's better than visiting the mother-in-law!) sad

Feb 04 13 02:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Emily Hayworth
Posts: 848
Banning, California, US


For models, it's a fine line when it comes to sharing ideas.  Sometimes the photographer welcomes them, but you should recognize that many times they do not.  I've found this to be true just as often with trade shoots as I do with paid ones.
Feb 04 13 05:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,618
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


1k-words-photograpy wrote:
Thats not so bad I suppose. I mean I have no interest in shooting it but its not the most horrible idea that could come up. Typically when I hear an idea I don't like for TF I try to figure out how we can shoot it in a way I like better "Thats edgy, I like the idea of the caution tape but can't we come up with a better way to show confinement and danger rather than on train tracks? And why did I hook up with such a beautiful model only to cover her face in a gas mask?" At the end of the day you meet some folks you just can't work with but you still give it that old college try.

-----snip------

Again this is just me. One of the most fantastic things about photography as a business is that your process only has to fit you, your customers and your models.

I really think I need to clarify my earlier post, since it was more tongue in cheek than anything else. I did have an early actual experience in mind when I gave my example.

I agree with your methodology, and I always encourage models to present some of their own ideas for a TF shoot. But, like you stated, some typically have no ideas of their own. That's why I try to encourage a thought process that helps them create new ideas.

The typical scenario for my TF shoots includes about 3 totally independent concepts in a half day shoot; that way we get at least 3 totally different looks. That provides adequate time to get some usable photos for all involved. In fact, I did work with one particular model that came up with a theme (we called it "Nature Beauty") that took us two years and 8 working sessions to complete and represents several photos in my current portfolio that won major awards. So, yes, listening to the models can be a great idea!!

Feb 04 13 05:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mario Guarneros
Posts: 49
Dubai, Dubai, United Arab Emirates


We are all grown up's (or one would hope), brainstorming on an open project such as a TF non-commercial session is a great way for everyone to get what they need/want/would like from the session.

If an idea from a model/photographer/MUA is not your cup of tea be a grown up and just come out and say it: I am not comfortable shooting that. Period, I have never forced anyone shoot anything they don't want to shoot and instead I have ended up shooting some awesome material that was suggested entirely by the model.

Fine tune your people's skills, be a grown up and not a diva, open your mind and know your limits, respect each others ideas and make it clear without being rude when someone else's idea is just not for you.

I've convinced models to shoot something they haven't considered and vice versa, the key part is to be outspoken, honest and respectful.

Have fun shooting people, art only happens when everyone is having fun. smile
Feb 04 13 05:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeff Fiore
Posts: 9,096
Pelham, New York, US


ForeverFotos wrote:

It could be worse, maybe something like this ......

Model: "Love your work, can we shoot on Tuesday?"

Photographer: "Hey, I would love to shoot with you, do you have any concepts or do you want to work on my current tribal-primitive project?"

Model: "Yeah, I have this great idea where I'm wrapped in caution tape, holding a guitar and wearing a gas mask while I'm tied to some railroad tracks. What do ya think?"

Photographer: ummmmm, wait a minute! My wife just reminded me that we have to visit her mother in Albuquerque that day. I'll get back with ya.

I would definitely turn down a shoot like that. She forgot the angel wings and rose petals.... smile

Feb 04 13 06:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Red Sky Photography
Posts: 3,184
Germantown, Maryland, US


When the model arrives, we go look at what she brought and what I have and come up with what we will shoot. I've gotten some awesome shots from having a model's input.
Feb 04 13 06:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


It's simple.

1. I show model my 'inspirations' Tumblr and say we'll be shooting stuff like this.

2. Model agrees and turns up with various unsuitable stuff.

3. I discard model's stuff and apply my own 'styling' rules - ie. "remove clothes until it looks cool".

4. We shoot nudes.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
Feb 04 13 07:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ForeverFotos
Posts: 6,618
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
It's simple.

1. I show model my 'inspirations' Tumblr and say we'll be shooting stuff like this.

2. Model agrees and turns up with various unsuitable stuff.

3. I discard model's stuff and apply my own 'styling' rules - ie. "remove clothes until it looks cool".

4. We shoot nudes.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

my hero! http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-character-smileys-175.gif

Feb 04 13 07:44 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 21,438
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


You folks need to understand that "collaboration" is a potentially dangerous concept. Collaboration can give rise to a claim against your copyright. In some jurisdictions it automatically gives rise to joint authorship and joint copyright ownership.

Until and unless you understand the effect of using that word, and just use it but without also taking steps at avoidance of it's possible detrimental effects, it is not at all unlike greasing up, bending over and waiting for something bad to happen. You are living in the hope that it doesn't, believing that it can't, .............. but it could.

Studio36
Feb 04 13 08:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jojo West
Posts: 969
Silver Spring, Maryland, US


Emily Hayworth wrote:
For models, it's a fine line when it comes to sharing ideas.  Sometimes the photographer welcomes them, but you should recognize that many times they do not.  I've found this to be true just as often with trade shoots as I do with paid ones.

I'm finding that to be the case more and more. Even those that "welcome" input then reject it. There are some though, that truly appreciate and want the input so it's nice to come across them when you.

Then you have those that worry that collaboration means the model will later sue you because you used her idea...*sigh* it's just exhausting, lol.

Feb 04 13 09:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Jojo West wrote:
Then you have those that worry that collaboration means the model will later sue you because you used her idea...*sigh* it's just exhausting, lol.

Word.

Emily Hayworth wrote:
For models, it's a fine line when it comes to sharing ideas.  Sometimes the photographer welcomes them, but you should recognize that many times they do not.  I've found this to be true just as often with trade shoots as I do with paid ones.

How can you as a model even expect to get the "trade" images that you want if the photographer will not accept your input and ideas? If I was a model I wouldn't shoot a "trade" with a photographer that didn't include my input and gentle suggestions. The images would (and DO) SUCK without that positive "connection".

studio36uk wrote:
You folks need to understand that "collaboration" is a potentially dangerous concept. Collaboration can give rise to a claim against your copyright. In some jurisdictions it automatically gives rise to joint authorship and joint copyright ownership.

Until and unless you understand the effect of using that word, and just use it but without also taking steps at avoidance of it's possible detrimental effects, it is not at all unlike greasing up, bending over and waiting for something bad to happen. You are living in the hope that it doesn't, believing that it can't, .............. but it could.

I actually have no big problem with this "risk" on "trade" shoots, because we have BOTH agreed that the images are limited to both our portfolios and self-promotion use only. It's spelled out in the agreement the "usage" allowed by both parties.

I am not using "trade" shoots to build a "commercial" project for "commercial" use, and neither is the model. So, I encourage "collaboration". It's already covered in the limited usage agreement. And, if the model is nice, I'll often extend that usage to whatever she wants to use them for (calanders, etc)...so, I see no reason that she would even need to sue me, but would have a difficult case if she did. We BOTH have agreed that the images are for non-commercial self-promotional "portfolio" use only.

Feb 05 13 08:07 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jojo West
Posts: 969
Silver Spring, Maryland, US


I just don't get it, it's advertising for the photographer as well...seems like so many people are all about "this is MINE! you can't use it!" it makes them sound like petulant children. Perhaps that's why I'm so mindful of the photographers I do TF. If I'm getting paid I don't care, I'm there to do what they want (within reason of course). If I'm trading with you, it's all about making it worthwhile for BOTH of us.
Feb 05 13 08:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Jojo West wrote:
I just don't get it, it's advertising for the photographer as well...seems like so many people are all about "this is MINE! you can't use it!" it makes them sound like petulant children. Perhaps that's why I'm so mindful of the photographers I do TF. If I'm getting paid I don't care, I'm there to do what they want (within reason of course). If I'm trading with you, it's all about making it worthwhile for BOTH of us.

Exactly! I don't understand the whole issue on not wanting "trade" shoot "collaboration". Legally, we have already agreed on joint "usage" (kinda the whole point of the "trade" concept).

And, I get my BEST work when both of us are "enthused" to shoot, and both have contributed to the concept, and have clearly agreed upon ideas. (Well before the day of the shoot!)

How else can you get the concept communicated and get the "natural flow" of a good photoshoot? I do NOT want to "micro-manage" a photoshoot!

And good collaboration reduces the "flake" rate to almost ZERO!

Feb 05 13 10:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
1k-words-photograpy
Posts: 276
Leesburg, Virginia, US


I have 3 llamas in various stages of setting up TF sessions. I'm crazy excited for all of them based on our interaction and I believe the all are too. Who wouldn't want to work with talented and creative people to improve thier project?

Have I had llamas that took it too far? Sure. Have I been able to manage the situation, yes. I think having creative collaboration keeps things fresh in my opinion. Not just or me but for everyone involved.
Feb 05 13 11:00 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Jojo West
Posts: 969
Silver Spring, Maryland, US


I think many of us have interacted in other threads. So many people get offended, annoyed, or w/e about collaborating, input into each others areas of practice, and who can do what. In every aspect of my life I like to incorporate communication. Things work better when all parties involved not only FEEL valued, but ARE valued.

At the end of the day...I llama because I enjoy it, it's not going to make or break me. I will gladly work with all types of people as long as it benefits me, and that person in the end, except those who think they are better than me or doing me a favor. We all have something to gain from each other.

Every photographer I've worked will tell you I'm funny, nice, and polite. I always tell them, I like direction so if you want to give it please feel free, if you don't then don't. Works like a charm...most of the time wink
Feb 05 13 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HO Photo
Posts: 392
Los Angeles, California, US


When I find a model who will be understanding about my channeled-via-email pre-shoot OCD, will collaborate and brainstorm with me, and (gasp!) even style a shoot -- I don't let that model go. big_smile
Feb 05 13 04:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,726
London, England, United Kingdom


ArtisticGlamour wrote:
How can you as a model even expect to get the "trade" images that you want if the photographer will not accept your input and ideas? If I was a model I wouldn't shoot a "trade" with a photographer that didn't include my input and gentle suggestions. The images would (and DO) SUCK without that positive "connection".

Easy, just have ideas/projects that models want to get involved with. Too many people on MM lack any imagination and fault others for it.

My approach is that models are there to enhance my vision with their modelling abilities.

Likewise, when I'm working on someone else's (Hairstylist, MUA, etc) vision, I'm there to enhance their's.

Both seems to work so far and we all choose to work with each other based on our abilities.

Darren x
www.facebook.com/darrenbradephotography

Feb 06 13 03:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Darren Brade wrote:
My approach is that models are there to enhance my vision with their modelling abilities.

My approach is to layout a basic concept, but allow lots of model input and ideas.

I have found that (especially with wardrobe suggestions) a model will often know better what works or what might be an improvement. I love it when a model "buys into" an idea in the beginning stages of communication, and really throws some ideas (and enthusiasm) my way to improve the concept.

I look at a "trade" shoot as more than just "my" vision. I want collaboration and a synergy to take place. It shows in the images (connection) as REAL smiles and expression. I like enthusiasm...not just a hunk of "modelling clay" to be over-directed or micro-managed. It shows in the final images.

Feb 06 13 06:31 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,669
New York, New York, US


ArtisticGlamour wrote:

Jojo West wrote:
Then you have those that worry that collaboration means the model will later sue you because you used her idea...*sigh* it's just exhausting, lol.

Word.

Emily Hayworth wrote:
For models, it's a fine line when it comes to sharing ideas.  Sometimes the photographer welcomes them, but you should recognize that many times they do not.  I've found this to be true just as often with trade shoots as I do with paid ones.

How can you as a model even expect to get the "trade" images that you want if the photographer will not accept your input and ideas? If I was a model I wouldn't shoot a "trade" with a photographer that didn't include my input and gentle suggestions. The images would (and DO) SUCK without that positive "connection".


I actually have no big problem with this "risk" on "trade" shoots, because we have BOTH agreed that the images are limited to both our portfolios and self-promotion use only. It's spelled out in the agreement the "usage" allowed by both parties.

I am not using "trade" shoots to build a "commercial" project for "commercial" use, and neither is the model. So, I encourage "collaboration". It's already covered in the limited usage agreement. And, if the model is nice, I'll often extend that usage to whatever she wants to use them for (calanders, etc)...so, I see no reason that she would even need to sue me, but would have a difficult case if she did. We BOTH have agreed that the images are for non-commercial self-promotional "portfolio" use only.

In the U.S. at any rate, anyone can sue anyone at any time for anything whether or not the suit has merit.  While I agree that it is reasonable to take reasonable steps to protect oneself it is notreasonable or effective to take excessive steps.  This means walk on the sidewalk, cross at the green and look both ways.  It does not mean stay on your own block for the rest of your life.  The same principal applies to collaboration.

All IMHO as always, of course.

Feb 08 13 03:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Camerosity
Posts: 4,793
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


I like to do 3-5 genres/concepts/looks during a shoot. Most of my trade shoots are 4-6 hours, sometimes longer when the model is coming from out of state (about half do) and can’t easily come back for a second shoot. 

Most people on MM, when they decide to shoot, set a date and then figure out what to do. To me that’s backwards. I want to pre-plan the shoot with the model before I schedule it.

I’ve found that pre-planned shoots go smoother and are MUCH more productive. Everyone knows what we’re shooting, where, in what order, what wardrobe will be used, and what moods and looks we’re going for.

Before the shoot we've exchanged photos (or links to photos) to illustrate the looks we’re thinking of, and most of the time I’ve seen photos of the wardrobe we’ll be using – and in many cases I’ve participated in the selection of wardrobe from cell phone photos or clothing web sites. Words are subject to interpretation – and misinterpretation, especially where intangibles like concepts and looks are involved. With photos everyone sees the same thing. Then the model and I decide what to shoot.

That way everyone knows what's expected and what to expect. Any props or accessories that would complete a look should be on hand. (“Hey, anybody know where we can find a white dove on a Sunday evening?” You get the idea.) And because there’s time for everything to roll around in my head for a while, it’s likely that the best ideas will come before the shoot rather than when I’m driving home afterward - as they sometimes do when I have to wing it for a shoot.


(The above has been included in emails that I send to models to propose a trade shoot, or to respond to requests for trade shoots, for nearly a year. A side benefit is that, since I started doing this, I have had an very low flake rate. Presumably the models who would flake disqualify themselves by not finding time to participate in shoot planning.)
Feb 08 13 03:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jojo West
Posts: 969
Silver Spring, Maryland, US


Rays Fine Art wrote:
In the U.S. at any rate, anyone can sue anyone at any time for anything whether or not the suit has merit.  While I agree that it is reasonable to take reasonable steps to protect oneself it is notreasonable or effective to take excessive steps.  This means walk on the sidewalk, cross at the green and look both ways.  It does not mean stay on your own block for the rest of your life.  The same principal applies to collaboration.

All IMHO as always, of course.

I live in DC and work with attorneys (day job) I know what you're saying. I just think people need to start working together not against each other. Talk to each other, discuss, share ideas, and if you're scared there will be a legal issue do one of two things:

1. don't work with them, you can tell what a person's like if you talk to them
2. have your bases covered: contract, nda's, releases, usage rights, etc etc etc

You limit your potential when you constantly worry you'll be sued. Besides in this day and age, you rarely come across a 100% original idea.

Feb 08 13 03:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Something Guy
Posts: 14,854
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
It's simple.

1. I show model my 'inspirations' Tumblr and say we'll be shooting stuff like this.

2. Model agrees and turns up with various unsuitable stuff.

3. I discard model's stuff and apply my own 'styling' rules - ie. "remove clothes until it looks cool".

4. We shoot nudes.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Discard points 1 to 4 (sounds a bit GWC) just tell the model you're shooting her nude.

Feb 08 13 03:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
natural beauties of qld
Posts: 2,086
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


ArtisticGlamour wrote:
It's the eyes that "connect" first. THEN all that other stuff.

It is surprising how few models understand this when I point it out to them.

Feb 08 13 06:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
natural beauties of qld
Posts: 2,086
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


Rays Fine Art wrote:
(Anything's better than visiting the mother-in-law!) sad

That is pretty much true.  Ever wondered why the world is awash with mother-in-law jokes, but fathers-in-law get overlooked?

Feb 08 13 06:56 pm  Link  Quote 
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