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Model
Reverend White Rabbit
Posts: 8
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Hey guys, I know this topic has been dragged through the mud and then some, but I have a question that I can't really find an answer to, as all the Suicide Girls thread are outdated by a few years.
I know that before, SG had an exclusive contract where you couldn't model for anything else for two years or else all these notorious legal issues would ensue, but now, as a model for Zivity, I see all these girls like RazorCandi, Porphyria and OkiDokiOkami and other smaller names who are modeling for both AND some other companies as well!  I do believe RazorCandi just now became an SG.
So anyway, I'm just wondering, did SG change their contract?  I thought about modeling for them once but after doing my research, I ran away like a scared little kid, but I mean, if their terms have changed then it's something that I'd be willing to consider again, pending research.  Anyone know anything at all?
Thanks!
Feb 04 13 10:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,236
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


You could message those girls specifically and ask them, since they would have first hand knowledge, rather than the unwashed masses just taking guesses and regurgitating what they think they heard from someone somewhere at some point.
Feb 04 13 10:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Reverend White Rabbit
Posts: 8
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Fair enough, I'm just not sure if that would come across as rude. Like, "Hey, tell me about this contract you've got." I just feel like that would seem nosey. Maybe I'm over thinking it.
Feb 05 13 01:41 am  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 21,689
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


SG was sued in the California courts over those restrictive agreements they were making with the MODELS [but not the photographer's agreements]

About Feb 2008 the court entered a judgement against SG and voided all previous model agreements and told SG they could not use them, or anything like them, any longer.

So they were changed but not out of the kindness of SG themselves. SG was forced to do it.

Studio36
Feb 05 13 05:17 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Reverend White Rabbit
Posts: 8
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Oh! Thank you very much for that information. It's interesting to watch what happens to SG as time goes on.
Feb 05 13 05:25 am  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 21,689
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


Reverend White Rabbit wrote:
Oh! Thank you very much for that information. It's interesting to watch what happens to SG as time goes on.

Here's the relevant part of the court ruling

"The Court finds that, in any matters determined at trial. Plaintiff God's Girls LCC is entitled to judgment as a matter of law that each and every version of SG Services, Inc's model release, including but not limited to those attached as Exhibits to the operative Complaint on file in this exaction, are void and invalid as a matter of law, at least to the extent that the releases are intended to provide that a model is "exclusive" to SG Services, Inc. and/or to prohibit a model from modeling or otherwise providing services for God's Girls LLC."

It is fair to say that even this leaves some questions unanswered, but for the casual model it resulted in a far more free position vis a vis modelling elsewhere.

SG can and will still retaliate within the scope of their current agreements, but at least they can no longer actually sue a model for breach of contract on these grounds.

Studio36

Feb 05 13 05:35 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Reverend White Rabbit
Posts: 8
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Hm okay.  Thanks for the direct reference.  It just really confused me when I saw all these successful girls starting up with them.  You've been super helpful!
Feb 05 13 10:12 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 4,883
Detroit, Michigan, US


I know that Vivid Vivka is on CosplayDeviants, SuicudeGirls, and Zivity as she tends to talk about all three on her FB page and on Zivity. I know she is very successful on Zivity and listed as on of the top CosplayDeviants models in the CD FAQ. I do not know about SG.

RazorCandi is a really nice one to ask questions as she has always responded back to me quite quickly.

I would guess that Oki Doki Okami is good at getting back as well, though I have never asked her anything personally. Not sure what range of sites she is on however.
Feb 05 13 11:08 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Reverend White Rabbit
Posts: 8
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Yeah, RazorCandi can be super helpful sometimes.  Like, I said, I'm just not sure if asking about someone's contract would be a bit too nosey, ya know?

That said, I went ahead and submitted the application and got accepted, as excepted, since they seem to accept everyone, simply 'cause I'm interested in reading the contracts and seeing what they send me.  And as previously mentioned, they still have the non-competition portion of their contract for the photographer release.  With that information, if I were to submit my first set as self-shot, does that mean if I wanted to submit a different self-shot set to Zivity, that I would be breaching contract?  Or if I did do a self-shot set, then would I be allowed to work for other sites?  Here's the text in the release.

"Photographer agrees that for two (2) years after the full execution of this Assignment, Photographer will not directly or indirectly: (i) sell or otherwise provide Internet, photographic, video, film, audio, text, design, artistic or other creative content to any “SG Competitor”; or (ii) own, manage, operate, join, control, finance or participate in the ownership, management, operation, control or financing of, or be connected as an officer, director, employee, partner, member, principal, agent, representative, consultant or otherwise, to any “SG Competitor”. “SG Competitor” means any person, entity or organization other than SG that competes with SG, including but not limited to any person, entity or organization that creates, develops, manufactures, produces, distributes, markets, licenses or sells events, products or services that compete with SG."

As per usual, SG is being pretty vague on their contracts.  I just want to make sure I'm not screwing myself over here.  If it is possible to model for SG, as well as other sites, then I would definitely like to, but I'm not about to sign my career away for the next two years.
Feb 05 13 05:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael DBA Expressions
Posts: 3,163
Lynchburg, Virginia, US


Reverend White Rabbit wrote:
If it is possible to model for SG, as well as other sites, then I would definitely like to, but I'm not about to sign my career away for the next two years.

I think that is the heart of the matter, isn't it?

I also expect you can count on pretty much anybody who puts crap like that in their contracts, whether enforceable in court or not, to be a pain in the keister trying to bully folks into obeying. I'm just guessing on that one, but that's been my experience over the years, although not with SG. I've never been tempted to work for them. For that very reason.

I'm hoping you get your questions answered, and best of luck with your modeling career.

Feb 05 13 06:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 7,755
Imperial, California, US


Why even consider those F'n schmucks, they can go pound sand with their contract!!
Feb 05 13 06:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sans Cloth
Posts: 146
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Reverend White Rabbit wrote:
With that information, if I were to submit my first set as self-shot, does that mean if I wanted to submit a different self-shot set to Zivity, that I would be breaching contract?

You need to talk to a lawyer for legal advice (which I am not)…but I would say you would be breaching the photography contract you signed with SG.  However I would think you safe to do a self-shot series for SG but always use a photographer (not yourself) for other avenues.

Personally I would work with you for Zivity shoots (hint, hint) but never SG.

Feb 05 13 06:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Reverend White Rabbit
Posts: 8
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


Thanks guys, your answers are definitely helpful.
I know, I know.  I seriously didn't even want to bother with them until I saw some of my favorite models starting to gravitate towards them.  My thought process is, if this many veteran models are starting to work for them then there has to be something good happening there.  Like I said, I'm just asking questions.  Nothing has been submitted yet, I'm just getting a hold of their releases to figure out what's going on here.  *shrug*  I guess I'll get over my fear of seeming nosey and get in contact with RazorCandi, see what she has to say.
Feb 05 13 06:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Reverend White Rabbit
Posts: 8
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


And Sans, if you want to shoot, that would be awesome.  I sent you a message with my number.  There's new prizes on Zivity I wanna go for.
Feb 05 13 06:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,236
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


I'm curious about your idea of "veteran" models and that they're "starting to work" for SG


I've seen quite the opposite. Newbies getting into sg and veteran models staying in but branching out everywhere else possible, or just getting out.

The sg market is flooded, if you weren't there years ago its going to be far more difficult to get yourself up to "insert name of popular sg girl here" status.

By all means if its something you want to do and are comfortable with the contracts, do it, but as per your earlier comment that it will be "be interesting to see where sg goes in the future".... It's going to be going the way of irrelevant, it's the only way it can go. Sg had their heyday when most the girls applying now weren't even legal.
Feb 05 13 11:30 pm  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
studio36uk
Posts: 21,689
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna


NM
Feb 06 13 02:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Barbosa Photo
Posts: 44
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


The terms as currently written make most halfway decent photographers VERY leery of assisting a prospective model in submitting photos. There is still a non-competition clause in place that prevents photographers from not working with other similarly themed sites for a period of two years *after* their vetting process which itself can happen any time up to a year after submission.

And these are for the 'free' Hopefuls. So yes, Suicide Girls is asking photographers not to work with any other sites that may include goth or punk girls ... without any guaranteed compensation whatsoever.

Oh yeah, almost forgot ... you're also not allowed to announce your availability to do SG shoots, or solicit for such. Ever. So basically, you're screwed.

And then people wonder why serious photographers and models have such contempt for them.
Feb 06 13 09:35 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Reverend White Rabbit
Posts: 8
Salt Lake City, Utah, US


As far as my idea for "veteran" models, the one that I'm specifically thinking of is RazorCandi.  There's a few others but I don't care as much.

Yeah, everything about the photography contract is sketchy.  Like I said, I'm just asking questions out and I'm not planning on signing anything.  I'm really just curious as to why these relatively experienced models are signing up with them.

That said, I did get in contact with a "model coordinator" from SG in regards to Zivity and CosplayDeviants being competitors and she said that they ARE NOT considered SG competition.  So I asked for a list of all the sites that are, and I'm waiting to hear back.  Just thought I would share.
Feb 06 13 12:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
FireBeyond
Posts: 9
Olympia, Washington, US


Karl Barbosa wrote:
Oh yeah, almost forgot ... you're also not allowed to announce your availability to do SG shoots, or solicit for such. Ever. So basically, you're screwed.

And then people wonder why serious photographers and models have such contempt for them.

The real intent of which is, of course, that you "can" choose your own photographer. But they really want you to use them/theirs (and pay nicely for the privilege).

Feb 06 13 05:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Broughton
Posts: 2,218
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


rule #1: don't work with scumbags.

sg is run by scumbags.
Feb 07 13 06:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Bennett
Posts: 2,216
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


If SG were the only outlet for my photography I'd give up and quit rather than work for them....
Feb 09 13 02:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,864
Olivet, Michigan, US


Dekilah wrote:
I would guess that Oki Doki Okami is good at getting back as well, though I have never asked her anything personally. Not sure what range of sites she is on however.

I talked to her briefly about something else and she was really nice.

Feb 09 13 03:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Amelia G
Posts: 554
Los Angeles, California, US


I can only speak for BlueBlood.com and I've certainly heard that some sites have run into headaches with SG, so of course you should always do your own due diligence. Only one person who worked for SG has ever turned down work from BlueBlood.com because of it and that was Zak Sabbath, who is a painter and not a model, so I would guess that is a different situation.

SG has worked with models after BlueBlood.com already had (not surprising as Blue Blood has been around almost a decade longer) and there are models who work with both BlueBlood.com and SG simultaneously. FWIW, someone I believe to be a member of SG ownership directly contacted me saying they don't consider our sites to be competing, but I think the fact that talent overlap has never been an issue is the more relevant thing.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I think sweating competition is a silly pastime for insecure children. BlueBlood.com directly promotes GodsGirls and BA when we have talent overlap and used to promote DeviantNation when they were around and is actually partnered with EBPM for affiliate stuff.
Feb 11 13 06:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Alexandra Mac
Posts: 2
Nashville, Tennessee, US


RazorCandi is NOT an SG. She's still a hopeful. The contract that we sign says that we cannot model for paid members-only nude sites. Basically, no competition sites like GodsGirls [I don't know why a girl would choose to be on both at the same time anyway]. A ton of SG girls are doing Zivity and other projects. The contract isn't as cutthroat as everyone makes it seem. It's very reasonable. :]
Feb 11 13 11:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura BrokenDoll
Posts: 3,550
Modena, Emilia-Romagna, Italy


I'm a SuicideGirl myself smile - look for Lauretta on the site, I'm not posting direct link as I don't think it's allowed on this forum.

I was modeling before becoming a SuicideGirl and I'm still modeling a lot after, never had issues of any kind with photographers or publications.
But yes, if you are interested in modeling for other sites, keep in mind we can't work with competitors - basically, "sites featuring tattooed and alternative models", which means nothing: best way is always email Missy about it and see what she answer.
Zivity and Front Army, for sample, are totally okay. But obviously, God'sGirls and Deviant Nation (is it still up?!) are not.

Vivid Vivka is the living proof that you can be a popular alt model AND a SuicideGirl at the same time! smile
Feb 13 13 10:39 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Dani-Mae
Posts: 59
Bladenboro, North Carolina, US


You are allowed to model for publications but not competing websites...when in doubt just email them and ask if whatever website you are considering is competition.
Feb 17 13 02:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kimberly Tattoo
Posts: 5
Toledo, Ohio, US


I just signed my SG contracts, at least as hopeful status, and what I had to sign and what my photographer had to sign were both only about a paragraph long, and there is no hidden fine print, and everything is laid out in very simple terms... Sign up look over the contracts and until you sign them it means nothing..

But I was pleasantly surprised as to the changes they have made since I first considered them when I was 18 years old.. I found nothing that scared me away this time
Apr 30 13 04:46 pm  Link  Quote 
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