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Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,903
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Cuica Cafezinho wrote:

My nation was not founded on revolution. My nation is more complicated than that. But, you won't get that in the Cliffs Notes. You didn't even manage Cliffs Notes, did you?

what nation you living in then ?

Feb 08 13 10:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Kerrek
Posts: 1,393
Orlando, Florida, US


Caradoc wrote:
Given that the LAPD has shot two little old ladies delivering newspapers, and rammed another man's truck before opening fire on him without so much as a warning, it has become quite clear that for whatever reasons the LAPD has decided that they do not want Dorner to be able to tell anyone else what his motives might be.

Their dangerously overzealous tactics notwithstanding, the only thing these events prove is that killing innocents and cops will result in swift and (sometimes) overzealous application of tactics to stop an active murderer who had declared his desire to kill many more people, at least forty of them by name.

The resolute behavior of the police in this matter need not require any measure of conspiracy to be met with this magnitude of force.

In the aftermath, all parties involved will be judged for their actions. The ends do not justify the means, no matter what side of the law you work from.

Feb 08 13 10:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Anthony
Posts: 2,231
Glendale, California, US


double post
Feb 08 13 10:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Anthony
Posts: 2,231
Glendale, California, US


in regards to the newspaper ladies, in the two L.A. county neighborhoods i have lived in, for some reason, the newspaper delivery pickup trucks drive around with their headlights off... not sure why...

the one in our current neighborhood does it too and the first time i drove past him, i freaked out cuz i thought he was drunk with all the swerving from one side of the street to the other without headlights in the dark...

you get one of those trucks cruising by in the dark throwing an object at you, it can be a bit alarming...

it was a bad shooting and im sure those women will get a sizeable settlement from the city...

as for Dorner, anyone who handles rejection like that is nuts in my book...

but for all that support him, i hope i never encounter any of them when they lose it...
Feb 08 13 10:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Al Lock Photography
Posts: 15,832
Bangkok, Bangkok, Thailand


Andialu wrote:

Stay focused, Al. He's not founding a country. I'm talking about the situation at hand. Stop trying to obfuscate. I'm saying that the crimes he has allegedly confessed to are heinous and unjustified. Nothing more. Nothing less.

So where is the line? When DOES it become justifiable to kill innocents?

Feb 08 13 10:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,016
Chicago, Illinois, US


Al Lock Photography wrote:

I'm curious as to your opinion of the men and women who rebelled against the crown and founded the United States of America. You know, those men who turned out at Lexington and Concord, who fought in Boston and New York and Yorktown...

Not defending Dorner - because I don't know if the facts justify his response... but I am not going to automatically assume that an institution should not be opposed by force in any circumstance.

There are those who believe that the real reason the revolution happened was rich land owners didn't want to pay taxes to England.   So they conned poor people to fight for them.   Violence as a tactic is a poor one.   Gandhi and King knew it.   Had Black people here used it during our fight for civil rights we might have been slaughtered.   Yes some of us were but it might have been much worse.   Non violent protests, sit-ins, strikes and  boycotts were more effective.   Men like  Thurgood Marshall used the law to change things.   Violence doesn't work long term.   Mr. Dorner may have had a legit claim about racism and how he was treated but he lost any moral high ground he might have had by killing people.   The ends never justify the means.   

This kind of madness is what drove a man like Tim Mcveigh to kill.   Its what drives terrorists.   It just doesn't work.   Did we change our polices after 911?   Yep we invaded Iraq and killed millions of Muslims including some terrorists.   Did those terrorist attacks accomplish anything, no.   Now Mr. Dorner will be hunted down like a rabid dog.   I'm not seeing any sense in what he did nor how his actions accomplished anything.

Feb 08 13 10:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Al Lock Photography
Posts: 15,832
Bangkok, Bangkok, Thailand


Tony Lawrence wrote:
There are those who believe that the real reason the revolution happened was rich land owners didn't want to pay taxes to England.   So they conned poor people to fight for them.   Violence as a tactic is a poor one.   Gandhi and King knew it.   Had Black people here used it during our fight for civil rights we might have been slaughtered.   Yes some of us were but it might have been much worse.   Non violent protests, sit-ins, strikes and  boycotts were more effective.   Men like  Thurgood Marshall used the law to change things.   Violence doesn't work long term.   Mr. Dorner may have had a legit claim about racism and how he was treated but he lost any moral high ground he might have had by killing people.   The ends never justify the means.   

This kind of madness is what drove a man like Tim Mcveigh to kill.   Its what drives terrorists.   It just doesn't work.   Did we change our polices after 911?   Yep we invaded Iraq and killed millions of Muslims including some terrorists.   Did those terrorist attacks accomplish anything, no.   Now Mr. Dorner will be hunted down like a rabid dog.   I'm not seeing any sense in what he did nor how his actions accomplished anything.

And yet Gandhi himself said the opposite of what you claim. Gandhi only chose non-violence because of the enemy he faced and the fact that the population had been disarmed. You should read Gandhi, instead of make assumptions.

As for the bit about the American revolution, I've heard that propaganda before. Problem with it is that it doesn't actually fit with the timeline, events or publications of the day. As a matter of fact, it is entirely a fabrication of the modern day with no significant evidence to support it.

As for violence not working long-term?

Well, it sure worked at getting rid of the National Socialists, didn't it? At putting the American Indians on reservations? At allowing Britain to plunder a significant part of the world? At allowing China to maintain its hold on Tibet?

Do I really need to go on?

EVERY Nation on Earth exists and was founded by violence. EVERY ONE.

Your claims aren't factual. They are fantasy. The fact is that man is a violent animal. The most evolved and dangerous predator on the Earth. To pretend otherwise? Is no different than believing in pink unicorns.

Feb 08 13 10:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,016
Chicago, Illinois, US


Al Lock Photography wrote:

And yet Gandhi himself said the opposite of what you claim. Gandhi only chose non-violence because of the enemy he faced and the fact that the population had been disarmed. You should read Gandhi, instead of make assumptions.

As for the bit about the American revolution, I've heard that propaganda before. Problem with it is that it doesn't actually fit with the timeline, events or publications of the day. As a matter of fact, it is entirely a fabrication of the modern day with no significant evidence to support it.

As for violence not working long-term?

Well, it sure worked at getting rid of the National Socialists, didn't it? At putting the American Indians on reservations? At allowing Britain to plunder a significant part of the world? At allowing China to maintain its hold on Tibet?

Do I really need to go on?

EVERY Nation on Earth exists and was founded by violence. EVERY ONE.

Your claims aren't factual. They are fantasy. The fact is that man is a violent animal. The most evolved and dangerous predator on the Earth. To pretend otherwise? Is no different than believing in pink unicorns.

Violence has no place in a civilized society.   Again I point to Dr. King.   There were two different views Malcolm X and NOI and his vision.   Had we used violence what would have happened?   Not every nation was founded on violence.   If violence is acceptable then I'm guessing you have no problem with innocent people killed by terrorists.   Violence and intimidation only work short time.   So what did Mr. Dorner's violence accomplish?   Nothing expect getting himself killed.   Will violence deter Iran from building atomic weapons?   It seems that other non violent methods are working.   Real change doesn't come at the end of a gun or with bombs.   Are we violent, sure.   Is violence a engine for positive change, no.   

So lets talk about nations where other methods worked.   South Africa and Apartheid for example.   Did social and laws change because of terrorist attacks and violence?   Or was that change because of outside and internal pressure?   Violence is the first choice of non thinking people.

Feb 08 13 11:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25,351
Portland, Oregon, US


Michael Anthony wrote:
in regards to the newspaper ladies, in the two L.A. county neighborhoods i have lived in, for some reason, the newspaper delivery pickup trucks drive around with their headlights off... not sure why...

because they are driving relatively slowly, they deliver at 3-4am and bright lights in windows at night can often disturb sleeping people.

Feb 08 13 11:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25,351
Portland, Oregon, US


Al Lock Photography wrote:

And yet, if this gets people to look at LAPD and to do a real house-cleaning, he may very well have accomplished something.

uh yeah.

that will happen when pigs fly out of sarah palin's butt.

Feb 08 13 11:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SAND DIAL
Posts: 5,965
Santa Monica, California, US


Connor Photography wrote:

It is easy for you to say, you were not in his shoes.

Nor were the 3 he killed in his shoes!

Feb 08 13 11:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Anthony
Posts: 2,231
Glendale, California, US


Patchouli Nyx wrote:

because they are driving relatively slowly, they deliver at 3-4am and bright lights in windows at night can often disturb sleeping people.

makes sense... hadn't thought about that...

Feb 09 13 12:19 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Robb Mann
Posts: 10,121
Baltimore, Maryland, US


At this point, if the LAPD continues to act like the professional force described in the manifesto, all the ex-cop needs to do is hide and let the media be the judge and jury.
Feb 09 13 03:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Al Lock Photography
Posts: 15,832
Bangkok, Bangkok, Thailand


Tony Lawrence wrote:
Not every nation was founded on violence.

Name one that wasn't. Good luck. I'll dig up the history to prove you wrong.

Feb 09 13 07:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andialu
Posts: 14,029
San Pedro, California, US


Al Lock Photography wrote:

Name one that wasn't. Good luck. I'll dig up the history to prove you wrong.

You guys are going off on a tangent. This thread isn't about the founding countries. It's about a guy who was fired and is exacting his revenge by unjustifiably killing innocent people.

Feb 09 13 08:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,016
Chicago, Illinois, US


Al Lock Photography wrote:

Name one that wasn't. Good luck. I'll dig up the history to prove you wrong.

I'll take your word for it.   However this isn't about world history.   Violence isn't a acceptable way to address your
grievances.   killing people isn't either.

Feb 09 13 08:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shon D.- Homme
Posts: 3,193
Virginia Beach, Virginia, US


Andialu wrote:

You guys are going off on a tangent. This thread isn't about the founding countries. It's about a guy who was fired and is exacting his revenge by unjustifiably killing innocent people.

If you read his manifesto, it's... actually not really about that either.

Feb 09 13 09:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Caradoc
Posts: 19,569
Scottsdale, Arizona, US


Shon D.- Homme wrote:

If you read his manifesto, it's... actually not really about that either.

There you go, trying to bring logic into it...

Feb 09 13 10:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Select Models
Posts: 35,568
Upland, California, US


Here's the link for the latest updates.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02 … d-day?lite
Feb 09 13 10:17 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
T
Posts: 53,557
Washington, District of Columbia, US


Andialu wrote:

You guys are going off on a tangent. This thread isn't about the founding countries. It's about a guy who was fired and is exacting his revenge by unjustifiably killing innocent people.

OMG!! He's not the only one on a tangent.

http://www.dailynews.com/ci_22550408/ch … ost_viewed

Feb 09 13 10:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Bots
Posts: 5,598
Kingston, Ontario, Canada


Fear Factor     (and CNN wonders why their ratings are in free-fall)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjJCEMAqJiI
Feb 09 13 10:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andialu
Posts: 14,029
San Pedro, California, US


T wrote:

OMG!! He's not the only one on a tangent.

http://www.dailynews.com/ci_22550408/ch … ost_viewed

Some sick twisted fucks are coming out of the woodwork. Don't get me wrong. I can't support the LAPD at all in this case. They are increasingly looking like they are what he has stated in his manifesto. It just makes me sick when I see people supporting the actions he has taken.

Feb 09 13 10:49 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
T
Posts: 53,557
Washington, District of Columbia, US


Michael Bots wrote:
Fear Factor     (and CNN wonders why their ratings are in free-fall)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjJCEMAqJiI

I was watching CNN last night and it was like they were painting the guy to be incredible hulk, as if he has super powers. It's silly. Police are already shooting black men 20 to 40 times as if they have super human strength. Enough already.

Feb 09 13 10:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,115
Maricopa, Arizona, US


Andialu wrote:

Some sick twisted fucks are coming out of the woodwork. Don't get me wrong. I can't support the LAPD at all in this case. They are increasingly looking like they are what he has stated in his manifesto. It just makes me sick when I see people supporting the actions he has taken.

+1

Feb 09 13 10:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Caradoc
Posts: 19,569
Scottsdale, Arizona, US


Michael Kerrek wrote:
The resolute behavior of the police in this matter need not require any measure of conspiracy to be met with this magnitude of force.

You misspelled "irresponsible." HTH. HAND.

Feb 09 13 02:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,115
Maricopa, Arizona, US


LAPD to reopen investigation into firing. Interesting turn of events.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/09/us/lapd-a … ?hpt=hp_t1
Feb 09 13 07:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,923
Buena Park, California, US


Cuica Cafezinho wrote:

and this makes me want to report you to the local authorities. This man may have been screwed and his life destroyed (I don't know) but for anybody to suggest his actions may be justifiable? I hope you are just internet crazy and don't really think this.

Report him for what?

Stupidity?  Who exactly do you report that to?

Feb 09 13 07:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,923
Buena Park, California, US


Cuica Cafezinho wrote:

My nation was not founded on revolution. My nation is more complicated than that. But, you won't get that in the Cliffs Notes. You didn't even manage Cliffs Notes, did you?

Can we get back to the man that is killing innocent people?

Cheers on your accomplishments by the way. Amazing.

Chanel
Revlon
Land's End (catalog)
Biolage
Clifford Michael Fashions
Body Fashion Intimate Apparel Magazine
GUTS Magazine
On The Beach Swimwear (catalog)
Tik & Tan (catalog)
Grateful Don's (catalog)
Home Run Restaurant (food)
Larry's Restaurant (food)
Zorba's Ouzo Greek Restaurant (food)
After Dark Asia Magazine
The Greenery Resort
Alpha Automotive
GEM City Engineering
Ball in Hand
Right Angle Design Thailand
Johny Live
Strikers Sports Pub
Strikers 2013 Swimsuit Calendar
Asia Expat Pool Challenge

What are you doing?

Feb 09 13 07:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,923
Buena Park, California, US


Al Lock Photography wrote:

So where is the line? When DOES it become justifiable to kill innocents?

Al, there is a different in killing and murder.

As it relates to the American Revolution, can you provide a single citation for the murder of any non-military/government personnel that would be viewed as a means that justifies the end?

Feb 09 13 07:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,923
Buena Park, California, US


Patchouli Nyx wrote:

because they are driving relatively slowly, they deliver at 3-4am and bright lights in windows at night can often disturb sleeping people.

If that is their reason, LE should crack down on it.  It's more dangerous to drive without your lights on.  For the few people that have windows facing oncoming traffic and it happens to be a bedroom window is pretty damn rare.  They'll just have to deal with it.

Feb 09 13 07:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,923
Buena Park, California, US


Andialu wrote:

You guys are going off on a tangent. This thread isn't about the founding countries. It's about a guy who was fired and is exacting his revenge by unjustifiably killing murder innocent people.

I really think we should be calling these murders and not killings.

Feb 09 13 07:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shon D.- Homme
Posts: 3,193
Virginia Beach, Virginia, US


Cuica Cafezinho wrote:
My nation was not founded on revolution. My nation is more complicated than that. But, you won't get that in the Cliffs Notes. You didn't even manage Cliffs Notes, did you?

Can we get back to the man that is killing innocent people?

Cheers on your accomplishments by the way. Amazing.

Chanel
Revlon
Land's End (catalog)
Biolage
Clifford Michael Fashions
Body Fashion Intimate Apparel Magazine
GUTS Magazine
On The Beach Swimwear (catalog)
Tik & Tan (catalog)
Grateful Don's (catalog)
Home Run Restaurant (food)
Larry's Restaurant (food)
Zorba's Ouzo Greek Restaurant (food)
After Dark Asia Magazine
The Greenery Resort
Alpha Automotive
GEM City Engineering
Ball in Hand
Right Angle Design Thailand
Johny Live
Strikers Sports Pub
Strikers 2013 Swimsuit Calendar
Asia Expat Pool Challenge
Christopher Hartman wrote:
What are you doing?

LMFAO

Feb 09 13 07:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,923
Buena Park, California, US


Shon D.- Homme wrote:

If you read his manifesto, it's... actually not really about that either.

He's talking about the thread, not the manifesto.

Feb 09 13 07:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,923
Buena Park, California, US


T wrote:

OMG!! He's not the only one on a tangent.

http://www.dailynews.com/ci_22550408/ch … ost_viewed

LE is having more and more scandals exposed nationwide. From murders, evidence planting, abuse, stealing, general corruption.  It's natural I believe to see people seeing someone as fighting against the department as a potential hero for the common folks.

Feb 09 13 08:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GK photo
Posts: 27,531
Laguna Beach, California, US


Lohkee wrote:
LAPD to reopen investigation into firing. Interesting turn of events.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/09/us/lapd-a … ?hpt=hp_t1

of course they have to. now they have to (thanks to every conspiracy nut out there claiming this guy was somehow wronged) show that they gave him a fair hearing, weighed all the facts, and decided how they did after doing so.

it's not just the lapd that ruled against him in his complaint. and basing his whole story on the testimony of the person's father (someone who wasn't an eye witness to the event) is ludicrous. plenty of eye witnesses testified that what the to says actually happened.

look, i hate playing monday morning psychologist, but this dude is a narcissist run amok. i know (and i'm sure some of you also know) the type. the guy or gal who is always being wronged. he has pushed it to another level altogether. again, i hope he is captured alive. i want him to tell a jury of his peers why he was justified in murdering three innocent people, wounding another, and firing on at least two others.

i'd like that to happen, so that everyone with the "bonnie and clyde" syndrome can hear exactly how heinous and cowardly these acts were.

Feb 09 13 08:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lohkee
Posts: 12,115
Maricopa, Arizona, US


GK photo wrote:
of course they have to. now they have to (thanks to every conspiracy nut out there claiming this guy was somehow wronged) show that they gave him a fair hearing, weighed all the facts, and decided how they did after doing so.

it's not just the lapd that ruled against him in his complaint. and basing his whole story on the testimony of the person's father (someone who wasn't an eye witness to the event) is ludicrous. plenty of eye witnesses testified that what the to says actually happened.

look, i hate playing monday morning psychologist, but this dude is a narcissist run amok. i know (and i'm sure some of you also know) the type. the guy or gal who is always being wronged. he has pushed it to another level altogether. again, i hope he is captured alive. i want him to tell a jury of his peers why he was justified in murdering three innocent people, wound another, and fire on at least two others.

i'd like that to happen, so that everyone with the "bonnie and clyde" syndrome can hear exactly how heinous and cowardly these acts were.

If you're looking for an argument, you won't find it here. This man's actions are just plain wrong. Given the immense pressure the Internet can bring to bear when something gains traction, he probably could have accomplished much more by publishing all of the relevant documentation and writing a blog instead of throwing his life away. At this point, his actions will overshadow the very cause he is fighting for.

Feb 09 13 08:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GK photo
Posts: 27,531
Laguna Beach, California, US


Lohkee wrote:
If you're looking for an argument, you won't find it here. This man's actions are just plain wrong. Given the immense pressure the Internet can bring to bear when something gains traction, he probably could have accomplished much more by publishing all of the relevant documentation and writing a blog instead of throwing his life away. At this point, his actions will overshadow the very cause he is fighting for.

bing fucking oh. great point. like i said, narcissist run amok. a homicidal narcissist.

Feb 09 13 08:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shon D.- Homme
Posts: 3,193
Virginia Beach, Virginia, US


Shon D.- Homme wrote:
If you read his manifesto, it's... actually not really about that either.
Christopher Hartman wrote:
He's talking about the thread, not the manifesto.

The thread is about the guy who wrote the manifesto, not some guy who is simply mad about being fired.

Feb 09 13 08:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,520
Salinas, California, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:
I'll take your word for it.   However this isn't about world history.   Violence isn't a acceptable way to address your
grievances.   killing people isn't either.

I found his writing to be a mix of intelligence, justifications for his actions, mixed with paranoia and some rambling.  He very well could have had a strong case.  However, he feels alone, with no wife, kids or seemingly a friend he trusts to confide in.  So rather than keep trying to fight the decision to fire him through legal means, he reverted back to what he is trained to do and knows best ... and that is to use killing people as a way to make his point.  It's very unfortunate because I believe him for the most part.  I've suspected that corruption and racism in the LAPD still exists.  His way of taking "control" of the situation is only going to make things worse.

Feb 09 13 08:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Al Lock Photography
Posts: 15,832
Bangkok, Bangkok, Thailand


Christopher Hartman wrote:

Al, there is a different in killing and murder.

As it relates to the American Revolution, can you provide a single citation for the murder of any non-military/government personnel that would be viewed as a means that justifies the end?

First, Dorner is accused of killing government personnel - police.

Second:

http://www.netplaces.com/american-revol … ndence.htm - note "Certainly the total of civilian deaths numbered in the thousands".

And more to the point:

http://hnn.us/articles/915.html

Feb 09 13 08:55 pm  Link  Quote 
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