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Model
Caitin Bre
Posts: 1,798
Naperville, Illinois, US


What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?
Feb 08 13 11:53 am  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
Chain Reaction
Posts: 514
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

I think whatever the people involved agree to is fine. It's getting everyone to agree that's the real trick! I don't think it's taking advantage. We all have to start somewhere.

Feb 08 13 11:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DraganSutic
Posts: 304
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Would you be ok signing a commercial release so the photographer could also use the images from the shoot?
Feb 08 13 11:56 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Caitin Bre
Posts: 1,798
Naperville, Illinois, US


DraganSutic wrote:
Would you be ok signing a commercial release so the photographer could also use the images from the shoot?

No problem there! If for trade for some raw images in return with releases of equal value. Its like splitting the deal. It would have to be with someone that can give you that quality as well. And something I need.
Like there are a few things I am looking for right now that I need to complete a gallery for Art exhibitions. (for profit)

I'm also working on a book. If there is something that would contribute to the value.

Feb 08 13 12:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Caitin Bre
Posts: 1,798
Naperville, Illinois, US


Chain Reaction wrote:

I think whatever the people involved agree to is fine. It's getting everyone to agree that's the real trick! I don't think it's taking advantage. We all have to start somewhere.

What if the person you can clearly see isn't that educated in business? Would you educate them and then negotiate? Protect them from there ignorance?

Feb 08 13 12:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17,897
Los Angeles, California, US


Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

I think a lot of models do not understand the worth of a great commercial image and instead consider themselves as "done" with portfolio building once they get  a few, not so bad I want to scream, images up and do a few paid gigs.

The fact is to hire me to shoot for your portfolio you costs a lot of money. If I ever do TF I am not going to make as much money from a session, even in fine art print sales, as I would have if i charged you. Hell if you want images for anything other than your portfolio and you are hiring me it is at least $2000 (about twice the portfolio rate). So in a test you aren't going to even get as much as you would if you hired me, because the worth of the image is not above my normal price for shooting.

Since the majority of models do not want to pay photographers for the rights to images they might want to first really evaluate just how important they are in the scheme of things.

The best thing to do when contemplating a TF offer is to have a realistic sense of just how good you and your portfolio are (and how good the photographer is). If you are an international recognized name in the modeling community you have different options open to you then if you are just some girl who likes taking pretty photos. However, even the girl who likes taking pretty photos can get more rights if she is working with Mr. My Mom got me this camera last week and i want to take pretty pictures of girls with it.

Ask in the serious critique section if you need help figuring out just where you are in the pecking order.

Feb 08 13 12:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 31,679
Lodi, California, US


Caitin   wrote:
You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

If you can find a photographer so stupid and inexperienced that he'll give away the RAWs and all rights to them, go for it.

Feb 08 13 12:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Alternative Image
Posts: 4,125
London, England, United Kingdom


I think you answered your own question in your first post.
Yes all parties have to get what they want out of TF, to be agreed upon before the shoot, or decline.

I only do TF on my personal projects and have had whole teams, always worked because we all know what were getting out of it.
Feb 08 13 12:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,113
Tampa, Florida, US


Caitin   wrote:
One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

But the reason it drives you crazy is part of the answer too.

If Mario Testino was offering you 5 edited photos only to be used for self-promotion would you not book the next flight at your expense and recreate a scene from Planes, Trains and Automobiles to get there?

While 5 photos with full unlimited commercial usage or even shared copyright might be absolutely worthless if the deal is made with a photographer who doesn't have anything of value to offer.

Perceived value is just that. And only you can answer whether the Trade terms are favorable for you.

Feb 08 13 12:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DraganSutic
Posts: 304
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Caitin   wrote:

No problem there! If for trade for some raw images in return with releases of equal value. Its like splitting the deal. It would have to be with someone that can give you that quality as well. And something I need.
Like there are a few things I am looking for right now that I need to complete a gallery for Art exhibitions. (for profit)

I'm also working on a book. If there is something that would contribute to the value.

Then it seems like a fair deal to me. If everyone get's equal value and treatment and  agrees beforehand that's the definition of good business.

Feb 08 13 12:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPV Photo
Posts: 737
San Diego, California, US


You should negotiate better trades. I give full-res pics.
Feb 08 13 12:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 23,354
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:
Perceived value is just that. And only you can answer whether the Trade terms are favorable for you.

And anyone can always just say no.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Feb 08 13 12:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Erlinda
Posts: 6,969
London, England, United Kingdom


You don't get it... TF can mean/be anything you want it to be. It just depends on how well you can negotiate.

If you aren't happy, you are doing something wrong hmm
Feb 08 13 12:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 41,673
Salinas, California, US


Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

This "Trade For" something stuff really didn't become as popular of a thing until digital photography became popular.  I used to do some variations of it, shooting in trade for some prints ... for example.  Often times I would do "testing" where the model got nothing.  I'd even get a "film fee" for many of those shoots.  It helped that I also worked at photo labs part time so I could get discounts. 

What do I think of the practice of trading?  I believe it can be very useful for people starting out on both sides of the camera!  Shooting in trade is useful for me in "testing" the working relationship I may have with new models.  I also use "trade" in working with more advanced models who are willing to forgo their fee in a mutual exchange of having use of a selection of the images that we split for use on both our websites.  It's a choice that is negotiated. Simple as that!

Feb 08 13 12:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
angel emily
Posts: 1,020
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Caitin   wrote:
One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

1) People get "pounded left and right for TF" here because that's mainly what this site is. 

2) Pick your photographers carefully.  Five edited photos from an amazing photographer and team will pay off much more than 100 shoddy ones taken with a shoddy photographer. 

3) llamas need great and up to date photos for their portfolios.  Those images ideally lead a llama to paid work.  That is the benefit and worth.   Every good llama trades.  Some trade more selectively than others.

IMO, llamas never need RAWs.  Only a fool photographer or amateur who doesn't value his work or understand the value of his work will give these away AND the copyright.  llamas never have permission to sell or publish the photographer's work, unless given permission by the photographer.

If you want to sell photos, become a photographer.

Feb 08 13 12:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Kirk
Posts: 4,309
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada


Caitin   wrote:
What if the person you can clearly see isn't that educated in business? Would you educate them and then negotiate? Protect them from there ignorance?

Educate them and then negotiate?  What is to educate them about?  Either they think what I am offering is worthwhile to them or they don't.  I cannot determine what value my photos have to someone else - only they can know that.  I am here to shoot with those that find my terms acceptable.  They accept and we shoot or they decline and I move on.  I don't try to "educate" others as to what I think my photos ought to be worth to them.

Feb 08 13 12:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Woodson Photography
Posts: 2,644
Savannah, Georgia, US


Any MM model who shoots with me knows clearly what they will take away from a *TF* shoot.  It is spelled out clearly in my profile.

If you want something different, it must be agreed upon prior to the shoot.   

If you want equal copyright, or a CD with the complete shoot, it won't happen with me.
Feb 08 13 12:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,125
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?

Trade for or time for. - (Usually for images.)


Caitin   wrote:
One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

If that drives you crazy, then don't accept shoot offers where that's the compensation offered.  Different people have different needs.  Don't accept offers that do not meet your needs.


Caitin   wrote:
Really how much is that worth?

That can vary.  I've worked with a few musicians for example, that needed some promo shots and felt getting images for their promotional use they didn't have to pay for was a great deal indeed.  More experienced models may place little value on such images.  Again, Only accept offers you feel are worth your time.



Caitin   wrote:
You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

I think most photographers will never provide models with RAW images and for good reason.  They also are unlikely to give unlimited usage of images for a trade shoot.

I think models who demand RAW images and exclusive rights from trade shoots, will have a difficult time booking trade shoots.

Caitin   wrote:
Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

Sort of, but not in a negative way.   Newbie models who have crappy portfolios will benefit more from TF work, so it makes sense to hit them up while TF still benefits and interests them.  It also makes sense for them to accept TF as a way to gain experience and improve their portfolio without having to spend money.

Feb 08 13 12:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,748
Olivet, Michigan, US


Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

There are photographers who can produce ONE finished image that is worth more, even at web resolution, than 500 raw images from most of us.

And, there are models who are, actually, getting a steal with one retouched web image from a decent photographer, and others who I'd be delighted to give as many as I could make time to finish off, in whatever format they asked.

We are NOT interchangeable, on either side of the camera.

Feb 08 13 12:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jackson frontier photos
Posts: 531
Joplin, Missouri, US


I agree with the op, which is why I provide almost all images in full resolution. I don't press the shutter button unless I have a decent shot to begin with.
Feb 08 13 12:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,486
Santa Ana, California, US


TF has no standard meaning except its acronym 'Trade For'. It's not any kind of industry term. It appears to have its derivation with Internet hobbyists.
That's why I don't use it. If I'm testing, then I use the correct street-level term 'test'. 99% of the models or other team members that are at the level I'm interested in collaborating with, understand the term and its standard meaning.

Of course the Internet and these forums just love to redefine long standing terms to fit individual whims or what they think it should mean.

There will certainly be a contribution from someone(s) in this thread stating that since TF has no standard meaning, that you have to surround it with all these formal agreements of specifics. This is exactly why the professional world defines and subsequently uses specific words which have a standard meaning, which everyone knows what it means operating in the professional environment. Those who are new and don't yet, get a quick primer. Then no need for a lengthy 'what does the term mean to you - what is our agreement' discussion.
But of course that's too straight-forward for the tens of thousand of MM members who insist on the latitude to use their own personal terminology
Feb 08 13 12:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Paige Morgan
Posts: 4,058
New York, New York, US


I don't need raw images.

I don't need all the images.

If I don't anticipate getting any port quality images from a shoot, or in in some bizarro universe I can't make arrangements for any physical portfolio pieces I might need (either by purchasing a 9x12 from the shooter, or being given permission to have one printed), I politely decline and move on with my day.

I don't see it as a personal affront to be offered a shoot. I love getting new offers in my inbox. Not all of them will result in agreeable terms for both parties all of the time....such is life.
Feb 08 13 12:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Karl Philip Duarte
Posts: 133
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


When and If I dpo shoot TFCD, I always have The Model sign a release,and I give her Final finished retouched images, I choose them and I usually give at least 10 images at printable rez , as well as the same files in web rez with Logo so she can use the images on any websites. My philosophy is that we are working together to creat the image, with out the model there is no Image, just like without the photographer, there is no image. if there is a team Makeup, hair , I also give them inages that show off there work. You nevr know when you wil get work from someone who looks at there work. TFCD is a part of my self promotion as well of networking.

Always remmebr it is ateam effort...

Have agreat weekend

K
Feb 08 13 01:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kyle T Edwards
Posts: 409
St Catharines, Ontario, Canada


Here's a related TF question for you:

A new model who has, by her own admission, only done iphone in the mirror shots, but is willing (to the point of eager) to do nudity, is asked to do a three-part TF shoot on location, against three different backgrounds.  The first one will have zero nudity and will be very casual.  The second one might have one or two breast shots, and will also be casual.  The third will have nudity and will be much classier.  Here's what was offered in trade:

She gets to keep the dress that's being used for the shoot (I'm buying it.  It won't be a $300 dress, but still).
She gets her choice of hi-rez shots, within reason (I'm thinking 5-10 per location), all edited for her.
Any extra shots she wants done ( non-iphone head shots, etc.) to improve her portfolio, also edited.
Since it is a late shoot, but she'll need to leave just before dinner to get makeup, I'll buy her dinner after.

For a brand new, untested model, would this be considered fair?
Feb 08 13 01:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 17,564
Downers Grove, Illinois, US


Caitin   wrote:

No problem there! If for trade for some raw images in return with releases of equal value.

You do realize you need software to process raw images, right? If you don't have the software you can't even open them.

Feb 08 13 01:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,083
San Diego, California, US


http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg
Feb 08 13 01:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,125
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


"Real Meaning of TF vs What You get!"

Commenting on your title here:

What you should get is whatever you and the photographer agree to.  There is no universal number, or resolution inherent in TF shoots.

In TF you are trading for something, exactly what it is you are trading for is something you need to discuss.  Don't make assumptions.  If the terms have not been made clear, then ask.
Feb 08 13 01:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Strangekitty
Posts: 12,857
New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada


http://cdn1.joshuakennon.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/simpsons.gif

Not even gonna TRY to start with how silly this is.
Feb 08 13 01:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Sarah Lynn Modeling
Posts: 93
Asheville, North Carolina, US


I've gotten burned so many times by TF shoots over the years that I've had to set guidelines.  I got tired of having to bug photographers for months on end about sending me photos, and then when they do it's like 3 very low resolution photos that aren't even all that good (or at least wouldn't have been my choices out of all the photos).  So from now on I have a written agreement for TF shoots that:
1) I receive proofs of the photos to review within 2 weeks of the shoot.
2) From the photos, I get to choose 6 which can either be edited by the photographer or just sent to me as-is
3) The photographer sends me those 6 photos 2 weeks from the time I give him or her my choices. 
4)  The 6 images I receive are high resolution
5) I sign a release form basically saying that the photos won't be abused.

Now, many of you will probably say my above guidelines are ridiculous and that no photographer would agree to that.  But the thing is, photographers do agree to it.  I've been modeling for a decade now, I don't need to do TF.  However, if there happens to be a really good photographer, or the photographer is a personal friend of mine, and I feel I can benefit from just having low res images or only being give a few photos, then I waive these guidelines.
Feb 08 13 01:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 4,786
Detroit, Michigan, US


For me, TF is about more than just the photos, though great pictures are always the #1 goal. But aside from the pictures there are other things I see that I gain from TF:
- another good reference (hopefully ^_~)
- word of mouth recommendations to other photographers or creatives
- practice in posing, maybe in make-up and wardrobe styling too
- doing something I enjoy, and for me the act of modeling is a very enjoyable experience

But I do also hope and perhaps expect to get good photos (or at least one good photo) from the shoot, which is why I am selective in who I shoot TF with. I have only rarely been disappointed.

I think for newer models maybe the non-photo related things I mentioned above are just as important as the photos. Yes, they do need good photos, but as a new model you need as much practice and good word as you can get. Once you are established people begin to assume you know what you are doing and that you must be decent at it otherwise maybe you would not still be shooting, not always, but often true.
Feb 08 13 01:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 17,331
Orlando, Florida, US


I only offer 2-3 photos  so say what you want. But my clients would pay a lot for those same 3 pics with same rights so if I offer TF than  it's value is the same as if I had charged a client.
Feb 08 13 01:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,294
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Sarah Lynn Modeling wrote:
I've gotten burned so many times by TF shoots over the years that I've had to set guidelines.  I got tired of having to bug photographers for months on end about sending me photos, and then when they do it's like 3 very low resolution photos that aren't even all that good (or at least wouldn't have been my choices out of all the photos).  So from now on I have a written agreement for TF shoots that:
1) I receive proofs of the photos to review within 2 weeks of the shoot.
2) From the photos, I get to choose 6 which can either be edited by the photographer or just sent to me as-is
3) The photographer sends me those 6 photos 2 weeks from the time I give him or her my choices. 
4)  The 6 images I receive are high resolution
5) I sign a release form basically saying that the photos won't be abused.

Now, many of you will probably say my above guidelines are ridiculous and that no photographer would agree to that.  But the thing is, photographers do agree to it.  I've been modeling for a decade now, I don't need to do TF.  However, if there happens to be a really good photographer, or the photographer is a personal friend of mine, and I feel I can benefit from just having low res images or only being give a few photos, then I waive these guidelines.

I think your guidelines are ridiculous & I would never agree to them.

Just my thoughts ~ MR

Feb 08 13 01:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Saadiq Photography
Posts: 1,283
New York, New York, US


Caitin   wrote:
What does TF mean?
I see it as Trade For something, anything, everything.

For sure the trade should be something worth your time.

One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

Well if your a new model needing port pics and the photographer isn't keeping 500 nude erotic images of you for it then its worth getting you started.

But if you have plenty of self promotion pics its worthless.

You have to see the value in the time. If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Certainly I think it is why when you 1st sign up on a site why you get pounded left and right for TF until you figure it out.

Do you think its taking advantage of a persons lack of experience?

OP, "assuming" you've already taken a "realistic" view of your own "imagery" value.  Then I'm sure you have an idea of your expected so called "tfp" value realistic or not.  So, regardless of the number of edits, image size and or release said photographer may have provided... just be thankful you got something without paying $ for them.  Also, expecting trade for "raw" files is simply foolish!

edit: quality 20yr old, sexy, 5'9+, playboy, maxim, SI type model... maybe worthy of trade for "raw" files to some. lol  But, what do I know.


Good luck

Feb 08 13 01:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David Kirk
Posts: 4,309
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada


A-M-P wrote:
I only offer 2-3 photos  so say what you want. But my clients would pay a lot for those same 3 pics with same rights so if I offer TF than  it's value is the same as if I had charged a client.

The value of the photo to a commercial client may be based on how much money they can make using that photo to promote their goods and services.  The same can be said if that client is a model if they are using the photo to seek paid work.  However, I don't think you can assume that your work has the same value to a hobby model (for example) as it may to a commercial client.

If someone agrees to do a TF* shoot then you can only conclude that they believe the results (whether that be the resulting photos, the learning, the experience, the networking) will be worth their time and effort - that does not mean they would pay what a commercial client may for the same photo.

Feb 08 13 01:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
Chain Reaction
Posts: 514
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US


Caitin   wrote:
What if the person you can clearly see isn't that educated in business? Would you educate them and then negotiate? Protect them from there ignorance?

The probelm there is how should I educate them? Should I mentor them on what I think is best for them? Probably not. I would offer them what I believe would be a fair deal and let them decide for themselves. We aren't all cut from the same mold. What might be right for one is not always best for all.

Feb 08 13 01:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Modstudios
Posts: 1,135
Dayton, Ohio, US


I understand that this is a touchy subject. What you get should be discussed prior to the acceptance of working with the photographer. As a photographer I don't hand out unedited images "RAW" as this is my brand "product" being displayed and would like to keep Quality vs Quantity. My personal choice.

We both have setup time ie.. shopping /getting wardrobe / equipment setup / Location scouting / theme ideas / etc.. There is additional time that is not always accounted for which is the editing / retouch process. Quality work takes time!

If you and the photographer agree to 5 images then turn around and ask for an additional 5 images you will more then likely going to get a big fat no. You are asking the photographer to essentially double his time.

Would you work a double shift for the pay of a single shift?
Feb 08 13 01:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Caitin Bre
Posts: 1,798
Naperville, Illinois, US


John Allan wrote:
TF has no standard meaning except its acronym 'Trade For'. It's not any kind of industry term. It appears to have its derivation with Internet hobbyists.
That's why I don't use it. If I'm testing, then I use the correct street-level term 'test'. 99% of the llamas or other team members that are at the level I'm interested in collaborating with, understand the term and its standard meaning.

Of course the Internet and these forums just love to redefine long standing terms to fit individual whims or what they think it should mean.

There will certainly be a contribution from someone(s) in this thread stating that since TF has no standard meaning, that you have to surround it with all these formal agreements of specifics. This is exactly why the professional world defines and subsequently uses specific words which have a standard meaning, which everyone knows what it means operating in the professional environment. Those who are new and don't yet, get a quick primer. Then no need for a lengthy 'what does the term mean to you - what is our agreement' discussion.
But of course that's too straight-forward for the tens of thousand of MM members who insist on the latitude to use their own personal terminology

That's very interesting you brought that up. I didn't hear the term until I starting venture into MM and CL. There are several other terms as well. And it seems that there is many definitions based on who you talk to.

Feb 08 13 01:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
angel emily
Posts: 1,020
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Caitin   wrote:
That's very interesting you brought that up. I didn't hear the term until I starting venture into MM and CL. There are several other terms as well. And it seems that there is many definitions based on who you talk to.

Test and trade are two different terms.

Test is an industry term.

Trade is primarily an internet term.

Feb 08 13 01:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 20,451
Portland, Oregon, US


Caitin   wrote:
One thing that drives me crazy is when I get an offer for 5 edited photos with only rights for self promotion. So you get 5 picked and edited by photographer, 800x 533p 72dpi.

Really how much is that worth?

You can always decline these kinds of TF* offers.


Caitin   wrote:
If the offer is 10 raw images from the shoot of your choice and all rights to those ten, then you might have something. For sure if they are of value on the market.

What do you think about this practice?

Any deal between two consenting adults is none of my business.  If you can find people willing to agree to such terms, more power to you.

But "all rights" deals are a nightmare...

...  Since the copyright is assigned to the photographer by default, such an
     arrangement would have to be documented with a contract that both parties
     will sign.

...  I won't sign any legal document that wasn't written by a legal professional
     and that wasn't reviewed by my lawyer, making this arrangement
     very expensive.

...  Such a contract would have to cover lots of stuff, including (but not limited to):
     >>>  Who gets to write usage licenses?
     >>>  How are revenues shared between the parties?
     >>>  What if one party wants to write a license but the other party wants
            to veto it?
     >>>  What happens if one party doesn't like the way the other party edited
             or watermarked the pictures?
     >>>  How are other disputes resolved?
     >>>  What happens if one party dies?
     >>>  What happens if one party moves without informing the other?
     >>>  Who does the accounting?
     >>>  If someones sues over the image, which party handles it?
     >>>  If the image is used without permission, which party handles it?
     >>>  Can one party sell their interest in the image to a third party?
     >>>  What prevents a 3rd party from negotiating with both image owners,
            creating a situation where the partners are bidding against each other?
     >>>  Should the partnership be incorporated (e.g. an LLC), and if so, who
            pays the business license fee and pays the taxes?
   
So, bottom line:  I would never, never, never enter into a "shared rights" arrangement with a third party for any of my photos.

Feb 08 13 01:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darryl Varner
Posts: 661
Lexington, Kentucky, US


From your post I'm not sure whether this is a general question or whether it pertains to you. Based on the images in your MM portfolio, you don't appear to be a newbie and you certainly seem to have more than enough photos to display your ability/interests. In my opinion, the easiest way to solve the issue would be simply to negotiate terms prior to shooting.
Feb 08 13 01:54 pm  Link  Quote 
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