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Forums > Photography Talk > Nikon - Don't tell me it'll sync at 250 if it wont Search   Reply
first123
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,727
Santa Ana, California, US


Fred Greissing wrote:

Your problem is that you probably have the balcar on slave and that is causing a delay.

I have no problem syncing at 1/250tn with Elinchrom micro flash packs and both slow and fast heads.

Nope, I can see that, that would cause a slight delay if I were. But both the Balcar and the Profoto, each are using their own respective PWs.

Feb 11 13 11:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,727
Santa Ana, California, US


Sekkides wrote:

Wow... how bright are your overhead lights??? smile

Ha ha. - They're normal corporate room light level. But honestly, it's been so long since I tested this - just used as high a sync as I could for years and years - so it's kind of ingrained. But when the flash doesn't fire for some reason at 250 it's dead black. I honestly think if I tested it would be dead black at 200. Not sure I'd want to do 60.

P.S. The D800's native ISO is 100. It goes down to 50.
My D300 as well as my previous D70 had a native of 200.
One of the multiple reasons I wanted to upgrade from the D300.

Feb 11 13 11:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Studio_1953
Posts: 64
Hyattsville, Maryland, US


Along the lines of what Fred Greissing says, the Promaster D400R is a 400w/s monolight that has a FP mode the lengthens the flash duration to allow sync speeds up to 1/8000 with the hack that I use. It's similar to Mr. Greissing's method but I use a SB800 in the hot shoe that's connected to a PWII. It works consistently.
     There's also a radio remote system, for Nikon DSLRs, manufactured by a British company, that claims to be able to work with any studio strobes and obtain sync speed up to 1/8000s regardless of the strobe manufacturer. If it works, this is an extremely interesting development. Not available in the US market though. Link is below. 

http://www.lencarta.com/lighting-store/ … nikon-dslr
Feb 11 13 11:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,727
Santa Ana, California, US


The Studio_1953 wrote:
Along the lines of what Fred Greissing says, the Promaster D400R is a 400w/s monolight that has a FP mode the lengthens the flash duration to allow sync speeds up to 1/8000 with the hack that I use.

Interesting. So, it sounds like you're suggesting that the pack is too fast (too short of duration) to sync, as opposed to the flash duration being too long.

Feb 11 13 11:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Justin Foto
Posts: 3,587
Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland


Sekkides wrote:
Oh.. Nikon's don't go below 200ISO do they? I use 100 or 50 in the studio.

Why shoot at ISO 50? Most cameras native ISO's are 100 or 200. Shooting below the native ISO doesn't gain you anything. yikes

Feb 11 13 11:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
The Studio_1953
Posts: 64
Hyattsville, Maryland, US


Interesting. So, it sounds like you're suggesting that the pack is too fast (too short of duration) to sync, as opposed to the flash duration being too long.

I would not say that. A friend of mine has Profoto D1 Air monolights and the D800E and ran into a problem with his initial setup. The D1 Airs had to be setup IR off along with the builtin radio receiver being off in order to sync with Pocket Wizards. Some sort of interference was taking place. You might want to look into that.

Feb 11 13 11:51 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,397
San Francisco, California, US


Sekkides wrote:
Oh.. Nikon's don't go below 200ISO do they? I use 100 or 50 in the studio.
Justin Foto wrote:
Why shoot at ISO 50? Most cameras native ISO's are 100 or 200. Shooting below the native ISO doesn't gain you anything. yikes

That would depend on the camera, wouldn't it?  On the D700, if you go to Low 1, rather than ISO 200, image quality declines.  According to DXOmark (which is subjective in itself), with the D300s, if you go to Low 1, dynamic range and color depth improves.  It has to do with the way the amplifier is used and the multiplier to get the high range on the other end.

On the D3X, ISO 50 gets you an additional stop at essentially the same image quality as ISO 100.  There is a very slight decline, which on balance, may be acceptable to get the extra stop.

These are all creative decisions, and there is no single right answer.

Feb 11 13 11:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GeorgeMann
Posts: 1,048
Orange, California, US


Hero Foto wrote:
nikon d600 & d7000 will NOT sync above 1/160th with Interfit (Elinchrom knock-offs) heads ... not with sync cord ... not with yn603n triggers ... not using the built-in flash to trigger slave cell ... I do miss my D70 sometimes ...

I shoot with Bowen lights and the D600 @ 1/250 will not sync with Power Wizards or sync cord. I am shooting at 200 ISO at F 8
However both my D2X and D700 had no problem @ 1/250
I tried all three at 1/250  1/160  1/125
I had to take the D600 down to 1/125 to get no curtain shadow at all.
I used all three in the same environment.
The D600, due to no sync plug was connected via the Nikon AS-15 terminal adapter.

Feb 11 13 12:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Justin Foto
Posts: 3,587
Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland


GPS Studio Services wrote:

That would depend on the camera, wouldn't it? On the D700, if you go to Low 1, rather than ISO 200, image quality declines.  According to DXOmark (which is subjective in itself), with the D300s, if you go to Low 1, dynamic range and color depth improves.  It has to do with the way the amplifier is used and the multiplier to get the high range on the other end.

On the D3X, ISO 50 gets you an additional stop at essentially the same image quality as ISO 100.  There is a very slight decline, which on balance, may be acceptable to get the extra stop.

These are all creative decisions, and there is no single right answer.

No. It depends on physics. If if you go to Low 1, dynamic range and color depth degenerates. It's just been attenuated. Attenuation will also add noise.

Extra stop? By reducing ISO?

Feb 11 13 12:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rob Walker
Posts: 458
Loveland, Colorado, US


rfordphotos wrote:
For whatever it might be worth, my D300 seems to synch at 1/250th with PWII's and my Speedotrons with no issue. Would NOT do 1/320th, had a definite curtain in the image. Pretty much the same results with my D3s. I only tested the D800 at 1/200th, so I cant be of any use there at all...

I love my D300, but the one thing I HATE is no shutter speed lock. I have a habit of handing the camera to the model to chimp while I adjust lights etc... I am forever spinning the shutter speed to 1/320th and not noticing until I chimp....I've had to reshoot a lot of stuff.....

D3s is smarter than I am smile D800 too !!!

I still use the D200 and I sync @ 1/250  both in studio and outside. I too wish there was a lock for the shutter speed as I seem to always move the dial and not notice for a few shots. A lot of reshoots...

Feb 11 13 01:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,727
Santa Ana, California, US


Rob Walker wrote:

I still use the D200 and I sync @ 1/250  both in studio and outside. I too wish there was a lock for the shutter speed as I seem to always move the dial and not notice for a few shots. A lot of reshoots...

I was periodically bumping the shutter speed on my D300 to 320 and ruining the shot also - sometimes I'd bump the aperture but that's not quite as devastating. SO Glad Nikon finally put shutter speed, as well as aperture locks on the D800.

Feb 11 13 01:55 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,397
San Francisco, California, US


GPS Studio Services wrote:
That would depend on the camera, wouldn't it? On the D700, if you go to Low 1, rather than ISO 200, image quality declines.  According to DXOmark (which is subjective in itself), with the D300s, if you go to Low 1, dynamic range and color depth improves.  It has to do with the way the amplifier is used and the multiplier to get the high range on the other end.

On the D3X, ISO 50 gets you an additional stop at essentially the same image quality as ISO 100.  There is a very slight decline, which on balance, may be acceptable to get the extra stop.

These are all creative decisions, and there is no single right answer.
Justin Foto wrote:
No. It depends on physics. If if you go to Low 1, dynamic range and color depth degenerates. It's just been attenuated. Attenuation will also add noise.

Extra stop? By reducing ISO?

Don't argue with me, argue with DXOmark.  They are the ones that did the testing and it is their conclusions I am basing my opinion on.

Feb 11 13 01:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Justin Foto
Posts: 3,587
Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland


GPS Studio Services wrote:

GPS Studio Services wrote:
That would depend on the camera, wouldn't it? On the D700, if you go to Low 1, rather than ISO 200, image quality declines.  According to DXOmark (which is subjective in itself), with the D300s, if you go to Low 1, dynamic range and color depth improves.  It has to do with the way the amplifier is used and the multiplier to get the high range on the other end.

On the D3X, ISO 50 gets you an additional stop at essentially the same image quality as ISO 100.  There is a very slight decline, which on balance, may be acceptable to get the extra stop.

These are all creative decisions, and there is no single right answer.

Don't argue with me, argue with DXOmark.  They are the ones that did the testing and it is their conclusions I am basing my opinion on.

I'm basing my opinions on the optical sensors I've designed for a living.

Feb 11 13 02:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,727
Santa Ana, California, US


GPS Studio Services wrote:

Don't argue with me, argue with DXOmark.  They are the ones that did the testing and it is their conclusions I am basing my opinion on.

Yeah, the low ISO (iso equiv) definitely takes an IQ hit. Even if it's minimal. It's not like film where ISO 25 would give the best IQ for instance over even 64.

Feb 11 13 02:04 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,397
San Francisco, California, US


GPS Studio Services wrote:
Don't argue with me, argue with DXOmark.  They are the ones that did the testing and it is their conclusions I am basing my opinion on.
Justin Foto wrote:
I'm basing my opinions on the optical sensors I've designed for a living.
John Allan wrote:
Yeah, the low ISO (iso equiv) definitely takes an IQ hit. Even if it's minimal. It's not like film where ISO 25 would give the best IQ for instance over even 64.

Fair enough, I don't want to argue with either one of you.  There is no doubt that the IQ of the D3X is slightly lower at ISO 50 than it is at ISO 100.   It is pretty insignificant though.

As for the D300s, as I have said, don't argue with me, argue with DXOmark.  I have a lot of issues with some of their conclusions, but their testing is their testing.  They claim that the IQ on the D300s improved at Lo.1 -vs- ISO 200 and that is what their testing has shown.

I don't care either way, but if you think DXOmark is wrong, show me something that contradicts their numbers.  I have no dog in this fight, I really don't care.  I looked at the numbers for the D700 and the D300s, the results were the results.

To be frank, I believed exactly the same thing as you until I saw their testing on the D300s.   I have an open mind so I would love to learn that they have made a mistake and my prior belief was correct.

Feb 11 13 02:13 pm  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,397
San Francisco, California, US


Justin Foto wrote:
Extra stop? By reducing ISO?

BTW, I don't understand this comment.  ISO 50 is exactly one stop slower than ISO 100.  So if you are trying to reduce depth of field, for example, you can open your aperture by one stop by going to ISO 50 -vs ISO 100.

If you want motion blur, for example, you can go to ISO 50 and increase your exposure time by one stop.  Etc, etc, etc.

Are you thinking that I meant that it allowed you to pick up one stop at the high end?  If so, then I didn't articulate my comment clearly.

Feb 11 13 02:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Justin Foto
Posts: 3,587
Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland


GPS Studio Services wrote:
BTW, I don't understand this comment.  ISO 50 is exactly one stop slower than ISO 100.  So if you are trying to reduce depth of field, for example, you can open your aperture by one stop by going to ISO 50 -vs ISO 100.

If you want motion blur, for example, you can go to ISO 50 and increase your exposure time by one stop.  Etc, etc, etc.

Are you thinking that I meant that it allowed you to pick up one stop at the high end?  If so, then I didn't articulate my comment clearly.

Ah, I see. I get your point now.

Feb 11 13 02:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Justin Foto
Posts: 3,587
Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland


On the subject of DxO. I keep seeing data there where they talk about a camera with say a 12 bit data converter yet they measure 13 bits of resolution. This seems to not set alarms off and they publish the data anyway - errr.....
Feb 11 13 02:37 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,397
San Francisco, California, US


Justin Foto wrote:
On the subject of DxO. I keep seeing data there where they talk about a camera with say a 12 bit data converter yet they measure 13 bits of resolution. This seems to not set alarms off and they publish the data anyway - errr.....

I dunno.  I don't work for them.

Feb 11 13 03:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leonard Gee Photography
Posts: 16,022
Sacramento, California, US


Slight point of order, the 1/250th sec figure is defined as the maximum sync speed; not the absolute for everything sync speed. The PWII is not as good as they claim under certain conditions.

For my Canon 5DII, the PWII with Norman and Elinchrom units, 1/200th (maximum sync) will produce a slight dark shaded portion at the edge of the frame. So I use 1/160th sec. A sync cord at 1/200 is fine. For the Nikon D3x, 1/250th sec works great.

However, using a PW TT5 with the same setup, I can use the Canon 5DII at 1/320th sec clean. And the Nikon D3x will sync at 1/400th sec fine.

A leaf shutter is a completely different animal from a focal plane shutter. As soon as a leaf shutter opens til it closes, it will expose the entire frame.

The flash duration has nothing to do with the focal plane shutter sync, it only affects the exposure across the direction of travel relative to the slit of the curtain. If the trigger of the flash doesn't happen til after the second curtain starts into the film opening, you are screwed no matter what the duration of the flash.
Feb 11 13 05:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,520
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


John Allan wrote:

Can't, my sync cord has lost conductivity and I've been procrastinating purchasing a replacement.

did you end your procrastination yet?

Feb 11 13 05:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Woodson Photography
Posts: 2,644
Savannah, Georgia, US


Speedlight87 wrote:
RF is much slower than the speed of light.

You might want to rethink that.

Radio waves travel at the speed of light in a vacuum.   Outside a Vacuum, radio waves travel slightly slower.

However, unless your receiver is about 140,000 miles from the transmitter, there won't be any difference.

Feb 11 13 05:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,520
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Ed Woodson Photography wrote:

You might want to rethink that.

Radio waves travel at the speed of light in a vacuum.   Outside a Vacuum, radio waves travel slightly slower.

However, unless your receiver is about 140,000 miles from the transmitter, there won't be any difference.

outside a vacuum, light also slows down.  both are electromagnetic energy.  either way the statement "RF is much slower..." fails HS physics.  Possibly grade 9 science depending on where you are.

Feb 11 13 08:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
IMAfoto
Posts: 59
Riverside, California, US


John Allan wrote:
Nikon specs say that the D800 (and the D300 for that matter), will sync at 250. Well, it won't. 200 is the highest mine will sync at cleanly (both my D800E and my D300), in the studio (Profoto and Balcar strobes w/PWIIplus). The curtain is relatively thin and resembles more of a vertical slight vignette on the right side. But it's the curtain. And it's obnoxious!

Why can't they just be honest and say that the highest sync speed is 200?

I get 100% perfect 1/250 on D800, D3, and D700 with PW FLEX/MC2 Einsteins and maybe up to 1/2000 with SB speed lights with FlexTT5. Can't blame Nikon because some manufactures cannot get there stuff up to par.  My Olympus OMD on the other hand is around 1/180.

Feb 11 13 11:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WMcK
Posts: 5,227
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom


Justin Foto wrote:
On the subject of DxO. I keep seeing data there where they talk about a camera with say a 12 bit data converter yet they measure 13 bits of resolution. This seems to not set alarms off and they publish the data anyway - errr.....

That's non linear quantizing which can give you at lest an apparent gain at the lower end, but at the cost of lower headroom in your pseudo low speeds. When I used to do these tests as part of my job on broadcast video cameras we always used to get in with an oscilloscope at the analogue stage before any digital trickery by the manufacturers (of which there was plenty) and get the real measurements. But with more integration and on-chip digital conversion DxO are subject to a lot of smoke and mirrors from manufacturers, and often accept preposterous claims.

Feb 12 13 12:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ChanStudio - OtherSide
Posts: 5,311
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


My D800 sync at 1/250th fine without any issue.

If I use hyper sync with triggers, I have tried it up to 1/8000th (using Hensel Strobes) and that works fine too.  I have used hyper sync mostly from 1/500 to 1/2000th with Hensel studio lights and haven't encounter any issue.
Feb 12 13 07:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hero Foto
Posts: 878
Phoenix, Arizona, US


ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
My D800 sync at 1/250th fine without any issue.

If I use hyper sync with triggers, I have tried it up to 1/8000th (using Hensel Strobes) and that works fine too.  I have used hyper sync mostly from 1/500 to 1/2000th with Hensel studio lights and haven't encounter any issue.

what triggers?

Feb 12 13 07:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DCS Photography
Posts: 788
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US


Paul Dempsey wrote:
I have shot Nikon D300, Nikon D700 with ABs at 250/sec with out any problem for years using the AB mono lights and Paul Buff triggers.

I'm using the D300 and D3 with ABs and their triggers and no issues at 1/250th either.

Feb 12 13 06:21 pm  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
Robb Mann
Posts: 9,981
Baltimore, Maryland, US


ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
My D800 sync at 1/250th fine without any issue.

If I use hyper sync with triggers, I have tried it up to 1/8000th (using Hensel Strobes) and that works fine too.  I have used hyper sync mostly from 1/500 to 1/2000th with Hensel studio lights and haven't encounter any issue.

I find this amazingly hard to believe. Only way to get sync like that is with a CCD on an electronic shutter, where the entire image dumps in a milisecond. With hypersync, the best Id believe without huge proof is youre pre-firing the flash and losing a lot of it pre-exposure.

I woukd love for the D800 to sync at 1/8000, but there is so much wrong with it being able to do so.

Feb 12 13 06:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Matt Duke
Posts: 121
Cypress, California, US


This photo was with a D7000 at 1/8000s with an off camera hot shoe flash and pocket wizards. It does decrease the power of the flash to have it above 1/200s.

http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/120805/22/501f5bcc23c42_m.jpg
Feb 12 13 10:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Edward Shaw Photography
Posts: 316
Birmingham, England, United Kingdom


Robb Mann wrote:

I find this amazingly hard to believe. Only way to get sync like that is with a CCD on an electronic shutter, where the entire image dumps in a milisecond. With hypersync, the best Id believe without huge proof is youre pre-firing the flash and losing a lot of it pre-exposure.

I woukd love for the D800 to sync at 1/8000, but there is so much wrong with it being able to do so.

If the flash duration is significantly longer than the shutter speed theres' no reason why it shouldn't be possible to synch for the shutter to fire during the flash exposure, although you will be losing a lot of power compared to conventional synch speeds.

Feb 13 13 07:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
E Thompson Photography
Posts: 164
Hyattsville, Maryland, US


Robb Mann wrote:

I find this amazingly hard to believe. Only way to get sync like that is with a CCD on an electronic shutter, where the entire image dumps in a milisecond. With hypersync, the best Id believe without huge proof is youre pre-firing the flash and losing a lot of it pre-exposure.

I woukd love for the D800 to sync at 1/8000, but there is so much wrong with it being able to do so.

I do it all the time with studio strobes, PWIIs and a SB800. Up to 1/8000s. Do a goggle search. There's plenty of information on the process.

Feb 13 13 02:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,520
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Robb Mann wrote:

I find this amazingly hard to believe. Only way to get sync like that is with a CCD on an electronic shutter, where the entire image dumps in a milisecond. With hypersync, the best Id believe without huge proof is youre pre-firing the flash and losing a lot of it pre-exposure.

I woukd love for the D800 to sync at 1/8000, but there is so much wrong with it being able to do so.

what is wrong with High Speed Sync?  everyone implements it on their branded speedlights.  Would they all do it if it didn't work?  Some people manage to do it with studio strobes as well.  I have not tried those tricks simply because when I'm outside with the noonday sun I'd rather be carrying speedlights than strobes.  simply a matter of my high metabolism and not wanting to sweat like a pig getting to a shoot.  Here's a simple demonstration using Sony (not even the exalted Nikon).  no prefiring, no electronic shutter, no special CCD (actually they are all CCDs but thats another story).  just a speedlight syncing at 1/2000 (if my memory is correct) in the noonday sun (real noon corrected for DST so the sun doesnt get any higher or brighter)

http://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/22993038

Feb 13 13 02:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ChanStudio - OtherSide
Posts: 5,311
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


Hero Foto wrote:
what triggers?

There are several brand out there.. Pixel King, Pocket Wizard, etc.  But I use Pixel King and it works fine for me.  There is another brand (I forgot the name) and it looks very similar to Pixel King but it is cheaper.  Pixel king has other functions/features that I don't really care about so I can't comments on those features.  I am only interested in hyper sync and I know it works on my D800 with Hensel strobes up to 1/8000th.

Feb 13 13 05:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ChanStudio - OtherSide
Posts: 5,311
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


Robb Mann wrote:
I find this amazingly hard to believe. Only way to get sync like that is with a CCD on an electronic shutter, where the entire image dumps in a milisecond. With hypersync, the best Id believe without huge proof is youre pre-firing the flash and losing a lot of it pre-exposure.

I woukd love for the D800 to sync at 1/8000, but there is so much wrong with it being able to do so.

No, no wrong.  It works fine for me.
 

Another photographer from here used the same  camera (D800) and same trigger that I have but he uses different strobes and he was able to get 1/4000th.  I think he had issue at 1/8000th.

Feb 13 13 05:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ChanStudio - OtherSide
Posts: 5,311
Alpharetta, Georgia, US


--
Feb 13 13 05:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,520
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

did you end your procrastination yet?

bump

Feb 13 13 06:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 37,468
Portland, Oregon, US


I was using my D800 yesterday with PWIII's and AB1600 (don't recall which power setting) and seemed to get some curtain intrusion at 1/250 also.

Unfortunately, I was beyond rushed/on major time crunch, so I just changed to 1/200, it looked clean, so I clicked through it.
Feb 21 13 08:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,727
Santa Ana, California, US


Update:

It seems to be tied to battery charge level.
I went into the studio a few days ago to just test some new equipment, so I didn't bother to charge the batteries.
With the batteries at like 10% the camera wouldn't sync faster than at 1/60. At 1/80 the curtain took up 6/8s of the frame. So, I took the camera outside and snapped a couple shots and everything was fine. WTF.

So, today I went in with fully charged batteries overnight and it was syncing at 250.

Not sure at what point it starts degrading the sync speed, but this is troubling, as doing a 4-8 hours shoot, the batteries aren't going to stay at full charge. I can't have the sync constantly degrading through the shoot down to 1/60.
Feb 23 13 06:07 pm  Link  Quote 
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