As a photographer you currently have two options: pay or trade

Models need to eat and keep a roof over there head: so do photographers

Models need to be compensated for their time, experience and travel expenses: so do photographers

Photographers also have thousands of dollars worth of equipment and spend a lot of time in post editing images. I believe that models should be paying photographers on this site just as much as photographers are paying models. It should be a two way street.

Who's on board?

What are your intentions?

You are right, Models deserve pay, Photographers too.... Well, not all of them, not in every case. You pay when YOU want to work with the other person (be a Photographer or Model) and THEY pay you when they want to work with you.

The perceived 'best' (be a Model or Photographer) is the one who deserves pay.

You get paid (or not) based on your work's perceived value.

Of course they should get paid.
However, this is an open profession without regulations so beginners will work for trade offs.

Professionals should get paid though, both models and photographers. But that's true for every profession.

I agree.....being a photographer is expensive.  And the beauty of it is that lots of cameras come with a remote control, so you don't even NEED a model, just photograph yourself.  That's always FREE 

The model should pay you around $40/hr and you should pay him/her back around $40/hr. 

It's a value thing.....if you want to use somebody to bring your idea to life, then you should pay them.  If they want to use you cause you're that awesome, then they should pay you.  If you are both pretending to be pro, but really just trying to make your portfolio more awesome, then you both gain and nobody should get paid.

Everyone has different goals.  If your goal is to get paid go out there and do what it takes to get paid.  If you are just doing this for fun then either do a trade shoot or pay a model.  As a photographer seek out models/clients/whatever that sync up with your goals.

I made $3000 last month.

Of course, that was for remodeling someone's bathroom...

O_o

Point is, it ain't a perfect world. Otherwise, Gwyneth Paltrow would be living with me instead of that guy from Coldplay...

Here is a case study.....

I'm not really into boxing.  But from a portrait standpoint, it would make a very interesting subject, a challenge for me, so if a boxer wanted me to photograph them, I would do it for FREE. 




HEre is a famous model.  Heidi Klum wouldn't give two shits about me or Model Mayhem.  So why would she want to photograph with me?   I'd have to PAY her....a lot. 




And finally.....a family sweater pet portrait is not really something I'm seeking to make my portfolio super awesome.  So....would I do it anyway?  Yeah....for MONEY.

It's basic economics, supply and demand.

If  photographer can offer something of value significantly better than what the model can get for free there is a good chance the photographer can find models willing to pay for it. Works the same way for models.

If a photographer can't get paid either they don't offer the right product or they are not selling in the right market.

all i seem to find here are models who want the photographer to pay them and provide photos for their portfolio.....seems to me if there is port building going on there should be a LOT more trading time and effort.....from now on, when i pay "full price"....i keep the photos,rights etc.....

Photographers with crappy portfolios will likely have to pay genuinely talented models in order to improve their portfolio. Models with crappy portfolios will likely have to pay genuinely talented photographers in order to improve their portfolio. Crappy models will do trade with crappy photographers. Talented models will do trade with talented photographers. Look honestly at your portfolio and you will see where you fit in this little puzzle. Expenses are irrelevant, because costly equipment or makeup or wardrobe without knowledge or talent is meaningless. Experience is irrelevant, because experience without quality or improvement is meaningless.

Sould Photographers Get Paid?

No they souldn't... but they definitely SHOULD...

I think they should be paid according to their ability to spell . . . .

As with Everything it's "Whatever the Market will Bear!"

What made my House worth over $400k, in Phoenix, at the peak and now worth Less than $100k today?  The Market!  The Market and the Press screaming all of the Crazy Crap they do these days...

So..., if a Photographer is worth it, they are going to be sought out by Models and Clients and Get Paid!  How much will they get paid?  Whatever the Market will Bear!  The Photographers that haven't hit that point in their shooting that aren't being sought after will either Shoot for Trade, Pay the Model(s) or Not Shoot at all.  Who determines whether a Photographer is worth it or not?  Again, The Market!

Love these threads!

Kindest regards,
Edward

You deserve to get paid when you've got something to offer that someone's willing to pay for. No sooner or later or for any other reason than that.

Just like everyone else.

This is a pointless question here on MM. Photographers want to be paid for their talent and to off set expenses, you can say the same thing about models.
Commercial work pays and so do weddings but trying to get a regular paying job on this site - FOR GET IT.
Now I know some models, who are willing to do nude work, can do well on this site and they have wonderful modeling skills and are in demand.

The models, photographers, art directors, agents, managers, hair stylists, makeup artists, set dressers, gaffers, assistants, catering, entourage, et al. are paid for by...

...the client.

Failing that, whatever.
Just keep shooting.

TFP is like riding a cab. Get on and get off quickly. It could get very expensive.

compelling argument, this is a groundbreaking theory.

I think photographers should get gold stickers whenever we come up with breakthroughs like this.



FTW 7000 posts. ohhh yeah.

Sure we should be paid, clients do it all the time.  The failure I see is in the assumption that model portfolio work is a business model.

the market decides. if you can get paid by models then more power to you. so far i haven't achieved that directly although working with models has led to paying work.

In macroeconomics class they taught us about this little detail called supply and demand.

Nowhere in that textbook did it say anything about pay being based on how much someone spends on equipment.

Here's how it works: If you are able to create a product that other people want, they will pay you for it. If you produce a quality product reliably they might keep paying you for it. If you have customers and any business sense, you may stay in business and maybe even make a profit (by the way, profit is defined as return on risk).

Now let's take a look at the online model site business model.

Some models get paid because they are willing to get naked, and some men will pay for that. A few get paid because they work for a client that pays both them and the photographer, say for fashion or commercial. This is simple supply and demand. While there are lots of models, only some will get naked, and many fewer than that meet the narrow criteria to sign with agencies and get paid to keep their clothes on... if they do, these sites become distinctly secondary for them.

Now for photographers, there are several problems with this approach. One is that there are lots of photographers willing to pay models, and a whole bunch more who would be thrilled to shoot for trade. That means the only real incentive for a model to pay a photographer is if 1) they are very, very good, as in OMG level good; 2) they are fairly well known and shooting with them brings credibility that would help the model land future paid jobs; or 3) an agency they've just signed with tells them they need to shoot with a certain photographer.

Needless to say, most of the photographers posting online saying they should be paid don't meet any of those criteria. Usually, not even close (not speaking of anyone in particular here, it is meant as a generic statement based on past experience).

Are there photographers who get paid by models? Yes, there are. A long time ago I was one of those guys referred by agencies. I know photographers who do that today. For me, it was never more than 10% of my income in any given year, rather it was a fun break from doing much more lucrative product photography.

But if I were going to write a business plan, it probably wouldn't target models. Why? They're usually young, which means with rare exceptions they have limited spending power at the individual level. And, there's no real incentive for them to pay the same photographer twice, if anything the pressure would be to work with multiple people. Thus after each shoot the marketing would need to begin again, and we all know how many hours of marketing it typically takes to bring in every hour of paid work.

So I'd prefer to target clients with real money and who would bring repeat business.

Finally, in my opinion models and photographers obsessing about the vicious circle of who pays who are in a race to the bottom. Far better to work together and convince someone with real money to pay both of you.

The photographer holds the copyright. It is up the photographer to turn a profit on that copyright if that is the desire.

The model pays the photographer when the model is looking for images to use.

If you're worth it, you will get paid.  Or get offers to be paid anyway.

I'm no where near as talented as many photographers on here, but I get offers for paid work quite frequently.

If we go back and forth about who ought to get paid, we're all losing.

I'll shoot trade when both the model and I have a use for the pictures. If I don't, she'll have to pay. But that seldom happens. If she has no use for what I do, then I may have to pay. Luckily, that seldom happens.

Money needs to come from outside the model/photographer loop.

Sure, I'm on board.

I've paid models to shoot them with their clothes on.

I've had models pay me to shoot them nude.

Yes, many photographers spend a lot of money on equipment and lots of time doing post-work.

Yes, many models spend a lot of money on hair, nails, makeup, clothes and lots of time in the gym or otherwise keeping themselves in shape and looking good.

I'm glad we got that settled.

You forgot about the client.

Though I don't see any problem with fair trade shoots after a while some people go too far wanting everything for free.
Have seen models putting out TF casts for photographer,videographer, hair & makeup for their actual weddings. Commercial businesses and companies placing casts for a whole production team on "volunteer" basis.
It does take a lot of time and money developing skills to work in this industry and if they can't get a decent income then soon there won't be many professionals at all.

I get paid by customers... Who come to me because of my particular skill-set.

In order to maintain those skills, I practice in my spare time with models... if I cannot get the model I need to practice a particular skill with for TF, then I'll pay her.
Some models pay me, others do not - it all depends on their requirements.