Tim Stuart wrote: all i seem to find here are models who want the photographer to pay them and provide photos for their portfolio.....seems to me if there is port building going on there should be a LOT more trading time and effort.....from now on, when i pay "full price"....i keep the photos,rights etc.....
Keep looking because there are just as many photographers that want models to pay them.
Lost Coast Photo wrote: In macroeconomics class they taught us about this little detail called supply and demand.
Nowhere in that textbook did it say anything about pay being based on how much someone spends on equipment.
Here's how it works: If you are able to create a product that other people want, they will pay you for it. If you produce a quality product reliably they might keep paying you for it. If you have customers and any business sense, you may stay in business and maybe even make a profit (by the way, profit is defined as return on risk).
Now let's take a look at the online model site business model.
Some models get paid because they are willing to get naked, and some men will pay for that. A few get paid because they work for a client that pays both them and the photographer, say for fashion or commercial. This is simple supply and demand. While there are lots of models, only some will get naked, and many fewer than that meet the narrow criteria to sign with agencies and get paid to keep their clothes on... if they do, these sites become distinctly secondary for them.
Now for photographers, there are several problems with this approach. One is that there are lots of photographers willing to pay models, and a whole bunch more who would be thrilled to shoot for trade. That means the only real incentive for a model to pay a photographer is if 1) they are very, very good, as in OMG level good; 2) they are fairly well known and shooting with them brings credibility that would help the model land future paid jobs; or 3) an agency they've just signed with tells them they need to shoot with a certain photographer.
Needless to say, most of the photographers posting online saying they should be paid don't meet any of those criteria. Usually, not even close (not speaking of anyone in particular here, it is meant as a generic statement based on past experience).
Are there photographers who get paid by models? Yes, there are. A long time ago I was one of those guys referred by agencies. I know photographers who do that today. For me, it was never more than 10% of my income in any given year, rather it was a fun break from doing much more lucrative product photography.
But if I were going to write a business plan, it probably wouldn't target models. Why? They're usually young, which means with rare exceptions they have limited spending power at the individual level. And, there's no real incentive for them to pay the same photographer twice, if anything the pressure would be to work with multiple people. Thus after each shoot the marketing would need to begin again, and we all know how many hours of marketing it typically takes to bring in every hour of paid work.
So I'd prefer to target clients with real money and who would bring repeat business.
Finally, in my opinion models and photographers obsessing about the vicious circle of who pays who are in a race to the bottom. Far better to work together and convince someone with real money to pay both of you.
Best thing I've read around here in a while especially for me as an enthusiast not trying to make money or spend it.
Ash Photographic wrote: If a photographer's work will improve a model's portfolio dramatically and lead to her getting more paid bookings herself, why should she waste time doing a load of speculative TF shoots with lesser photographers (who may not even deliver) in the hope of getting a few usable images for 'free'?
TF shoots DO NOT mean they are a lesser photographer. The model can check the photographers references to make sure he/she is a quality photographer just as the model would check the photographer's references to ensure he/she is reliable.
Ash Photographic wrote: Surely it's better for her to go straight to the source, get the best images possible with a guaranteed delivery date and get on with her paid shoots. After all, time is money and a model's shelf life (unlike a photographer's) is relatively limited.
Once again, the model can get the same best images and guaranteed delivery date in a trade shoot.
Since the supply of photographers willing to shoot trade is so great, the model can get the quality images by checking the photographers reputation and references.
For models who stand little chance of being agency signed for fashion or commercial work it may not matter. However those that do can't afford to run around shooting in hopes of getting the kind of work a agency needs for free. Those shoots require make-up, hair and styling. All things that aren't usually TF. With respect your work seems more glamor focused. Nothing wrong with that and models who do that can find plenty of good people to trade with them but... if you go to DNA or FORD or WOMEN they will give you a list of shooters and most if not all may charge a fee. Other factors also come into play. The photographers who are good may not need or want your look or have time to work with you.
TF has its place yet when you have a agency who wants to sign you and or the plan is to seek work beyond sites like this don't count on getting the kind of work that will move you forward for free.
your right it is a 2 way street, I pay a model if there is an idea i want done or if a client wants something done for them...otherwise Models should be paying us, im sure its a 1/1,00000000000000 that I get picked up as a photographer for something than a model being picked up to represent a product
Until I register here on mayhem, I though that ony the photo-market in Poland is in such bad condition. Now I read a lot stuff here and I dont get it actually. How is possible to think, that one of the side also SHOULD PAY and the other SHOULD BE PAID. For me is logic, that side who's should be more intertested to do well pics should paid, that side whos need better shots. This is really rarely thing that every side have the same level of experiance to talking about TFP.