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first12
Photographer
-The Dave-
Posts: 8,625
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:

I've made wonderful photos of models who couldn't express themselves well verbally.  This includes models who spoke English as a second language.

Why not just review their SAT scores?  tongue

What works best for me is I just keep hitting the model with a stick till I get the look I want.

Being that I am 90% deaf, verbal communication (spoken) is not the end all, be all. I get my shots without speaking.

Feb 11 13 01:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,068
Chicago, Illinois, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:

I've made wonderful photos of models who couldn't express themselves well verbally.  This includes models who spoke English as a second language.

Why not just review their SAT scores?  tongue

That was hilarious!   On a serious note though.   When models have not recommended lists I avoid them.   When their profiles are filled with what they won't shoot, I avoid them.   When they come across as negative, I avoid them.   Second languages aside.   Its a good ideal to carefully listen and consider what the model you plan to work with says.   Rather then listen to references from photographers I don't know.   I go to the source.   Allowances for models who speak English as a second language.   I recall you have a world wide network of photographers who share models.   Others may not be so lucky so we poor duffs try to rely on things the models say and write.

Its great you've made wonderful photos of models who couldn't express themselves well.   Thanks for sharing.

Feb 11 13 01:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Daeda1us
Posts: 1,067
Little Rock, Arkansas, US


Everyones Awesome wrote:
Whilst I respect the opnions of others, I think that the other pictures in my portfolio should prove i'm not just a GWC trying to get laid, but if that is the message that my work gives off, then obviously i need to try harder.

Just tell them you dont use photography to 'get laid'.

That is what the Harley is for!

big_smile

PS... if you dont have a Harley and you want to get laid...
GET A HARLEY!!!

big_smile

Feb 11 13 02:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Daeda1us
Posts: 1,067
Little Rock, Arkansas, US


Rays Fine Art wrote:
I could be wrong, but I think that Fernon is trying to suggest that more than one selfportrait, especially of the snapshot rather than the fine art variety, is likely to lead the observer to suspect that the photographer might be looking for a social rather than an artistic or professional connection.  Any llama with an ounce of sense would suspect that a nude or implied nude self protrait in a photographer's portfolio is an invitation to a sexual encounter.  Whether it's the photographer's intention or not, reasonable caution would demand that the llama make that assumption. 
*snip*
I could be wrong, but I believe that was the message these posters were trying to convey.  It certainly is the message I am trying to convey.

All IMHO as always, of course.

I have two self portraits in my port currently.
One is my avatar, which was totally accidental and which I find amusing.
The other is a test shot for a candle lit image I would like to do.  As soon as a llama lets me shoot her this way, I will take it down.
Now granted, neither is nude or implied, but pretty sure neither is the least bit 'sexy'.  One I look like I am screaming my head off (and I am) and the other I look like a sad little puppy dog, because I have very close to ZERO llamaing skills, but I was the only 'model' available in the wee hours of that morning test.

So, I am hoping I dont come across as wanting a date or a lil' sumthin sumthin from my llamas.
It should also be underscored by the "happily married" comment on my profile page.

Just saying, there might be a reason beyond the 'social aspects' for someone to have more than one self portrait in their port.

Hell, I was thinking about putting several more in mine, as examples of certain techniques, but apparently that would be a bad idea.
I screw up enough accidentally... I should avoid doing so on purpose!


My two cents, YMMV

Daeda1us

PS, if putting multiple 'self-portraits' in my port, with the intention of replacing them when I shoot the technique with a llama, is a bad idea.  Please say so bluntly.  I have very thick skin and will not take it personally.  Promise.
big_smile

Feb 11 13 02:14 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,073
New York, New York, US


Everyones Awesome wrote:
I appreciate the clarification. It is very difficult at times to read the intended tone of these messages, and certainly in my experience, can lead to big misunderstandings.

I Actually edited the implied shot to look like that because the look i was going for was retro grunge, and it never occured to me that people on a site like this would assume that it was an actual snapshot, although i suppose that is a testement to my Photoshop abilities if nothing else.

I understand that models May get the wrong impression from my port, and if i hadnt captioned the images "self portrait" nobody would probably have cared, since i also model, i didn't see any harm in modelling for my own photography portfolio.

Whilst I respect the opnions of others, I think that the other pictures in my portfolio should prove i'm not just a GWC trying to get laid, but if that is the message that my work gives off, then obviously i need to try harder.

Given that, if you don't mind an unsolicited suggestion, you might want to state in your profile that you model as well.   You might also (if you haven't already done so) create a second portfolio for your modeling work and link the two.   I think that most models would consider that to be a plus rather than a minus if they knew.

Unfortunately, there a lot of really terrific photographers that are also GWCs.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

Feb 11 13 02:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Undead Threads
Posts: 574
Greenville, South Carolina, US


Everyones Awesome wrote:
who make a point of saying "I have a photographer friend".

... will probably start "re-editing" any pictures you give them,

The bigest red flag for me is when a llama uses the words "my photographer"

I have had an issue with a llama re-editing, and by re-editing I mean using filters on the highest setting.

Feb 11 13 03:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Everyones Awesome
Posts: 70
Portsmouth, England, United Kingdom


Rays Fine Art wrote:
Given that, if you don't mind an unsolicited suggestion, you might want to state in your profile that you llama as well.   You might also (if you haven't already done so) create a second portfolio for your llamaing work and link the two.   I think that most llamas would consider that to be a plus rather than a minus if they knew.

Unfortunately, there a lot of really terrific photographers that are also GWCs.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

I appreciate the suggestion. Its good to know that there are a few people out there that dont just leap to conclusions. I did originally mention and link my llamaling profile on here, but i change my profile blurb frequently and at some point must have deleted the linky bit

Feb 11 13 03:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shy L
Posts: 584
Burlington, Vermont, US


-saying in their profile that they will always bring an escort "for their safety".  This just makes me fear for *my* safety. (under 18 I give a pass)
-all pictures in port are edited consistently with each other, even though from different photographers
-mentioning in their profile that they are good at editing images
-Paid assignments only even though has a beginner port
-consistently takes more than 2 days to reply to messages
-mentioning that they have a sense of humour.  This translates in my mind to "she giggles too much to pose effectively"
-signed up 3 years ago but still has a port full of mirror shots
Feb 11 13 06:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
afplcc
Posts: 5,991
Fairfax, Virginia, US


Red flags?

1.  Model shows up with surprise escort.  I'm generally okay with escorts...but if you don't give me a warning that tells me that (a) you don't expect me to shoot if you tell me in advance and (b) either you think I'm a molester OR your boyfriend doesn't trust you to model.

2.  Model who says she doesn't pose nude b/c she's "keeping it classy."  Every model should set their own boundaries.  I'm okay with models who don't pose nude.  But claiming that models who pose nude are trashy is like saying all blondes are dumb.  Trashing other people to justify your look or behavior or stance says more about you than it does about them.

3.  Model who agrees to shoot and for the specified terms (be it TF or a set fee) and then closer to the shoot says "times are hard, could you spare some more money?"

4.  Model stubbornly insists on some terms that are wildly inappropriate to the industry (we share all funds from photos, she has rights to all the photos, she gets to approve which photos I display).  If you pay me, than you can set the terms.  TF...I don't think so.

Fortunately, I have rarely run into this red flags.  In probably the last 300 shoots I've done, maybe these have come up....5-6 times?

Ed
Feb 11 13 06:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,864
Olivet, Michigan, US


Everyones Awesome wrote:
Hey Everyone,

So I'm learning all the time, and one of the hardest and fastest lessons I am learning is "red flags" to watch out for when being approached or discussing shoots.

One that leap to mind immediately are models who make a point of saying "I have a photographer friend". In my limited experience it just means that their head is full of nonsense about what they think should happen before, and after a shoot regarding trades, chaperones, signing releases and so on. Whether it was put there by another photographer giving the model their opinion, or if it is just waffle, I have no idea, but i've never had an easy time with these particular people.

Another is Models who make comments like "ive gotten just as good pictures on my iPhone as the phtographers, and I edit them better too.. on my iPhone"
This to me is a sure sign that the model genuinely believes he or she knows better than the photographer about everything, and will have a bad attitude during the shoot because they think they are too good to be there, and will probably start "re-editing" any pictures you give them, regardless of any paperwork you get them to sign.

Sounds like a bit of a downer on models but Having been one, im quite the opposite.

I have red flags for MUA's and Other Photographers too, but that is for another day smile

So what red flags cause you concern or in extreme cases to not book a model?

I'm a photographer, and I have plenty of models who are friends.  It would be kinda sad if that kept them from getting shoots.  I would think it would be worse if a model said "I've shot with dozens of people, and didn't get along with any of them."

And red flags?

"I must have an escort on set for my protection."

"My manager will approve . . ."

"I don't do nudes, I have self respect"

And, sundry demands.

But, most of that's not a huge issue.

Feb 11 13 06:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,864
Olivet, Michigan, US


PashaPhoto wrote:
"photographer friends" don't bother me...

every model that has been around even a little bit, at some point will become friendly with some of the photographers... not unusual and totally normal...

whether or not this becomes a red flag depends entirely on who these "photographer friends" happen to be smile

I'd LOVE to shoot with some of your model friends. . . .

Feb 11 13 06:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,864
Olivet, Michigan, US


PashaPhoto wrote:
"photographer friends" don't bother me...

every model that has been around even a little bit, at some point will become friendly with some of the photographers... not unusual and totally normal...
rp_photo wrote:
This is quietly understood. The model feeling the need to mention them is the issue.

Why wouldn't they?  If there's a reasonable amount of conversation, I mention model friends.  I even suggest that prospective models talk to them.

Feb 11 13 06:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,175
Portland, Oregon, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:
On a serious note though.   When models have not recommended lists I avoid them.

I agree that having a "not recommended" list makes a bad impression for those who made the list.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
...  Rather then listen to references from photographers I don't know.   I go to the source.   Allowances for models who speak English as a second language.   I recall you have a world wide network of photographers who share models.   Others may not be so lucky so we poor duffs try to rely on things the models say and write.

Gee -- every forum conversation between Tony & me leads to "checking references".  I'll just reiterate that many photographers put a lot of effort into vetting models while avoiding relationships with fellow photographers.  It's easy to check references if you've worked to network with your local photographers and (to a lesser extent) non-local photographers.  'Tain't difficult -- and it's a lot easier (and more constructive) than intensive interviews, pre-shoot meetings, attempting to implement a biased deposit scheme, writing laughable "legal contracts", using a "Flake Detection" flowchart containing questionable criteria, etc.

You guys do what you want -- it's your business.  But the photographers I admire the most are the ones who can solve problems and produce wonderful images from less than ideal circumstances.

Feb 12 13 11:58 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,577
Salinas, California, US


I've learned in this business is that there are no two people alike, and there are no absolutes either.   I listen to what models say.   Models mentioning that they have a "photographer friend" is not an automatic "red flag" for me.   I've got lots of photographer friends too!  If you've been to meet & greets, joined clubs, and participate on the forums of websites like I have, then you too shall make friends with other photographers too! 

It's all in the communication, but I watch out for those who maybe difficult to work with.  What I see as a "red flag" are models who are bossy, pushy, or insistent on having everything their way.  I consider myself a rather easy going type of guy.  I'm not overly demanding towards the models I work with.  We both go in with certain expectations, but there should be some give and take for the both of us.  If a model is new, I'll give appropriate coaching and guide her as needed.  I've worked with "difficult" models before, but it's usually a "one time only" event!   

So I guess my thing is that I don't like to be told what to do ... unless I'm getting paid big money!   Even then ... I'll just keep my mouth shut and do it, but I still don't like it!   lol
Feb 12 13 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,939
Santa Ana, California, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:

I think worry about these so-called "red flags" is hogwash.

When considering a model, I am concerned with only three things:
   ...  Do I like the model's look?
   ...  Is she trustworthy?  (e.g. I check references)
   ...  Can we negotiate an acceptable agreement?

I don't care whether she has a friend.  I don't care about a lot of these things.  I have limits, she has limits, and if our desires overlap, that's great.  If not, no hard feelings.

I've seen photographers come up with lots of irrelevant rejection criteria.  For example:  one has decided to reject models who have password protected folders in their portfolio. 

You guys can choose whatever criteria you want, but I think lots of you are just looking for a way to discard models.


P.S.  I'd rather look at an interesting photo made with a smartphone than a cliche' photo made with a high end camera.

I don't disagree that some of the 'red-flags' that come up are silly. But, many are not and to ignore some is foolhardy.

Feb 12 13 12:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17,925
Los Angeles, California, US


posted this in another thread but it applies here-

here are three red flags for three client types



1. The Asshole

"well if i'm paying you..." "I'm the client, you're the photographer."

the client obviously doesn't respect me or my craft and is going to be abusive towards me.

Recent example, was hired to shoot a concert event and documentary photos of the band getting ready. Made it very clear that i was ONLY going to do event photos, promo shots of the band would be an extra fee. Day of the event the client screams at me "why did you think we hired you for three hours!" when i refused to do promo shots of the band after the event.

This type of client truly believes that if they pay you any amount they should be able to ride you like a rental horse in Central Park. You are not a person, you are the photo machine and they paid you so they should get anything they want from you, whether or not they paid you the correct rate for the type of work being requested.

2. The copyright thief

"I paid you for photos of me and you never said I couldn't..."

Subtley or blatantly the client indicates they are going to break the licensing agreement once they receive the files. the fact is i can only list what I am licensing the photo for, I can't list everything they are not for. If you ask me to shoot an event i am shooting an event for personal usage by my client. As a client if you want commercial usage it is your responsibility to ask for it ahead of time, before you hire me, before I've shot half of the event, etc...

Recent example-

"so you are only having me shoot event photos for your personal web use right?" I ask in an email before accepting the job.  Client agrees to personal webpage, facebook and myspace usage only.

Later on the client is apoplectic when I won't send full print sized files. I ask why they need large size files for web usage. I tell them i would need them to sign a licensing agreement that laid in plain terms what they would owe me if they used the photos outside the original terms agreed to before the shoot.

Client won't sign. Turns out they wanted to print the images and use them as autograph cards for the band.

Needless to say I told them I would not be working with them again, and that they were not getting anything i hadn't agreed to before the shoot.

3. The Cheapskate/ Mr Big Expectations (usually goes hand in hand with #1)

"You can fix it in post."
"We're a start-up"
"Great exposure/resume builder"
"I want you to shoot her like she is a modern girl in 1920's fashion with a dramatic lifestyle vibe and she can't pose and even though we were four hours late to the location i need you to overpower the setting sun so we get a dark blue sky"

This is the who client is obviously expecting something they can't get for the amount of budget they have. They also rarely have a clear idea of what they want and expect you to be able to match new storyboards on the day of the shoot. They will not pay you to hire assistants or get more equipment and will scream on the day of the shoot if they feel you aren't getting what they want, even though they didn't budget for it.

These people are not budgeting for the proper group of people to fulfill their expectations- a lot of designers do this by hiring sub par models and no make-up and hair and a crap environment and then expect me to pull Prada ads out of my ass, or they keep adding on new things they want or need without expecting to pay me more money etc (did i say 5 outfits, I meant 23 outfits)...

Ummmm.... no I can't create a unicorn that you are riding while you are two sizes smaller with hair that is three times as long, maybe you should hire someone else for the job.

more realistically, I can't make this 5 foot 2 in friend of a friend who is obviously 2 sizes two large for your dress with bad skin and dirty hair look like an agency standard model.

also- "I'm sorry you didn't sew the hem yet, no I can't fix that for free, you have to pay me to retouch that."

Another common thing i find is they budget to pay me, i agree to shoot x number of outfits and provide x number of files for x usage, and then on the day of i am told i must also provide files to every other team member cause they are getting paid in images and not money.
Feb 12 13 12:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,577
Salinas, California, US


afplcc wrote:
Red flags?

1.  Model shows up with surprise escort.  I'm generally okay with escorts...but if you don't give me a warning that tells me that (a) you don't expect me to shoot if you tell me in advance and (b) either you think I'm a molester OR your boyfriend doesn't trust you to model.

2.  Model who says she doesn't pose nude b/c she's "keeping it classy."  Every model should set their own boundaries.  I'm okay with models who don't pose nude.  But claiming that models who pose nude are trashy is like saying all blondes are dumb.  Trashing other people to justify your look or behavior or stance says more about you than it does about them.

3.  Model who agrees to shoot and for the specified terms (be it TF or a set fee) and then closer to the shoot says "times are hard, could you spare some more money?"

4.  Model stubbornly insists on some terms that are wildly inappropriate to the industry (we share all funds from photos, she has rights to all the photos, she gets to approve which photos I display).  If you pay me, than you can set the terms.  TF...I don't think so.

Fortunately, I have rarely run into this red flags.  In probably the last 300 shoots I've done, maybe these have come up....5-6 times?

Ed

We are of the same mind set here.   (1) Like you, I'm generally ok with 'escorts!"   However I'm rather adamant about my policy of knowing "whom" a model would like to invite.   This whole "escort" thing is something I don't debate over.   I'm fine with mutually accepted "guest" for sure, but no surprise people showing up without discussing it with me first.  I consider it a courtesy.  I've had only one "uninvited" guest show up that was the models boyfriend. 

It was a two model shoot in a studio that was  primarily used as a dance studio.  So the door was unlocked.  I asked him to leave as soon as he came in the door.  It was a bad scene for a moment, but he left willingly and we continued the shoot. It was embarrassing to her at the time, but we are still friends, although she was smart to break up with him!

(2)  Models telling me that nudity is not classy tend to be too bossy for me.  I'm not here to be lectured to!  Again, like you, I understand every model has her or  his limits.  We all do!  But to push the idea that those who do nudes are some how "lesser" than those who don't is not acceptable for me.  Another prejudice is racism, which is another red flag, and can end communication instantly. 

(3) AND (4) Although I understand that sometimes terms need to be renegotiated, do it in a timely manner.   A commitment is a commitment!  My wildest experience is when I had met up with the two women at a club in 1992.  Brought them to my studio, then right after the shoot is done, and I'm about to pack it up, the model insisted I process the film, and give her all the proofs plus the negatives as fast as possible.  That was the night I was kidnapped. 

I was a younger man back then, and so I learned that you don't go looking for "models" at nightclubs and invite them into your studio without discussion of terms AND checking them out first!   She had her girlfriend with her to back her up in case something bad happened, but that got turned around on me.  What is so shocking to me in looking back is how many "red flags" she blew through to shoot with me that night!  This is why models who insist on having it their way or else they'll ruin my reputation, or simply "f#*k me up" are so scary!!!   yikes

I believe one can avoid such divas is to talk with them long enough to catch those clues.  If someone is bi-polar, it's quite http://assets.modelmayhem.com/images/smilies/scary.pngif you've just finished shooting and they turn into some totally different person than you though they were!  Trying to avoid that scene,  I preach the importance of communication!  I say to others, "Take your time to get to know a model."  It can be worth being friends in the long run as I enjoy shooting with the same models multiple times over the years.

Feb 12 13 01:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,068
Chicago, Illinois, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:

Tony Lawrence wrote:
On a serious note though.   When models have not recommended lists I avoid them.

I agree that having a "not recommended" list makes a bad impression for those who made the list.


Gee -- every forum conversation between Tony & me leads to "checking references".  I'll just reiterate that many photographers put a lot of effort into vetting models while avoiding relationships with fellow photographers.  It's easy to check references if you've worked to network with your local photographers and (to a lesser extent) non-local photographers.  'Tain't difficult -- and it's a lot easier (and more constructive) than intensive interviews, pre-shoot meetings, attempting to implement a biased deposit scheme, writing laughable "legal contracts", using a "Flake Detection" flowchart containing questionable criteria, etc.

You guys do what you want -- it's your business.  But the photographers I admire the most are the ones who can solve problems and produce wonderful images from less than ideal circumstances.

I know very few photographers in my area.   When models join MM they tend to have few images and no MM shooters credited.   I gather you're a social fellow.   As you might be able too tell I'm not so much.   I have no interest in joining any groups of local shooters.   Nor will I go racing around to check up on a models past shoots.   My only focus is my work.   I don't care about the experiences of others and references mean exactly zero too me.   Didn't you miss a shoot with a model which you told us about?   Not her fault but clearly you were bothered by it and if you repeated that tale without all the nuances.   What might a shooter who wanted to work with her think?   

So, I ask models my questions.   Its brief and to the point.   I pay attention to what they write.   I set up a day and time that we both agree too.  I make clear what's expected of them.   I ask for a confirmation call and if I don't get it.   Then we aren't shooting.   No plaintiff calls from me about why.   No angry emails.   They didn't want to shoot.    I work with adults.   I expect adults to handle their business and be responsible and I hold them to their word.   I have no desire to vet models beyond that call and reviewing their written profile.

Feb 12 13 01:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Viator Defessus Photos
Posts: 1,025
College Station, Texas, US


Hmm.... red flags...

1) Model wants me to negotiate with the boyfriend.

2) The boyfriend turns out to be a "graphic artist" and I "have to understand that he's going to want to play with the images too." [Nope. I don't have to understand that.]

There is a photographer locally that will shoot with a model and then get them to sign a contract that essentially adds them to his "stable." He acts as their manager/agent and anyone that wants to hire them has to pay them and he gets a cut, even though the model has only done 2 shoots, both with him, and haven't had any real experience. Understandably the other local photographers have little patience for this nonsense. Any girl that pops up with a portfolio of 4-6 shots of his (ugly) work with his watermark all over them is pretty much instantly written off by every other photographer in the area.
Feb 12 13 02:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,175
Portland, Oregon, US


Tony Lawrence wrote:
I know very few photographers in my area.   When llamas join MM they tend to have few images and no MM shooters credited.   I gather you're a social fellow.   As you might be able too tell I'm not so much.   I have no interest in joining any groups of local shooters.   Nor will I go racing around to check up on a llamas past shoots.   My only focus is my work.

I'm not really all that social -- there are more social folks around here.  I'm just saying that the effort to address these "red flags" is (in the long run) significantly more effort than building enough of a network to ask around about a llama.  But of course, you can do whatever you want -- it's your time.

If you want to use the newbie llamas, the ones with few images, that's your choice, too.  Of course, in my experience, these newbie llamas are often more difficult to work with, are often not top-notch in their appearance or their posing, are often cheap, are often incredibly nervous, and are often not appropriately reliable.  If that's what you want, you have a good way to get it.  And of course, my position is that if these newbie llamas flake on you, you either have to accept it or change your selection criteria -- Tony doesn't start "flake" threads, but I maintain that if people refuse to protect themselves, they have no reason to start such a thread.

Newbie llamas are like summer interns:  summer help and some are not.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Didn't you miss a shoot with a llama which you told us about?   Not her fault but clearly you were bothered by it and if you repeated that tale without all the nuances.   What might a shooter who wanted to work with her think?

I honestly don't know what you are talking about.  The thing about effective reference checking is that you ask the people who know

Feb 12 13 03:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 19,068
Chicago, Illinois, US


Looknsee Photography wrote:

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I know very few photographers in my area.   When models join MM they tend to have few images and no MM shooters credited.   I gather you're a social fellow.   As you might be able too tell I'm not so much.   I have no interest in joining any groups of local shooters.   Nor will I go racing around to check up on a models past shoots.   My only focus is my work.

I'm not really all that social -- there are more social folks around here.  I'm just saying that the effort to address these "red flags" is (in the long run) significantly more effort than building enough of a network to ask around about a model.  But of course, you can do whatever you want -- it's your time.

If you want to use the newbie models, the ones with few images, that's your choice, too.  Of course, in my experience, these newbie models are often more difficult to work with, are often not top-notch in their appearance or their posing, are often cheap, are often incredibly nervous, and are often not appropriately reliable.  If that's what you want, you have a good way to get it.  And of course, my position is that if these newbie models flake on you, you either have to accept it or change your selection criteria -- Tony doesn't start "flake" threads, but I maintain that if people refuse to protect themselves, they have no reason to start such a thread.

Newbie models are like summer interns:  summer help and some are not.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Didn't you miss a shoot with a model which you told us about?   Not her fault but clearly you were bothered by it and if you repeated that tale without all the nuances.   What might a shooter who wanted to work with her think?

I honestly don't know what you are talking about.  The thing about effective reference checking is that you ask the people who know & have reason to trust you.  I agree that asking strangers is significantly less effective.  Ask the people who know you.
   

Everybody has their process.  Yours & mine differ.  That doesn't mean one of us is right and the other is wrong.

We may duel over this stuff but I respect you.   Our methods and views differ.   You should do what works for you and its been effective.   I do mostly TF shoots and too be candid I don't feel like asking others about what Suzy did or didn't.   I also accept that may mean I'll get flakes and last minute cancellations and other nonsense.   The key is I don't take it or make it personal.   Unlike some members I'm not soul searching to consider why a model flaked or cancelled last minute.   I'm not going to re-word my profile in hopes of seeming more safe, friendly or professional.   Want to shoot?   Email and or call.   We agree on concepts, days, times and locations and roll through.

Last year a former Elite model wrote me and we shot.   No silly changes.   No escorts.   She came and we had some fun at two sessions.   When photographers start flake threads its usually more about feeling down and venting.   Its not about answers so much.   I accept that in some cases models will prove to be unreliable.   I understand my risks.

Feb 12 13 03:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 2,487
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


RKD Photographic wrote:
Mentioning Escorts and 'personal safety' in the same sentence - drivers are fine but they wait outside and collect the model when the shoot is over. I don't care how you get to the shoot as long as you're on time.

Demanding all the images from the shoot.

Trying to justify wanting all the images from the shoot by saying 'it's normal'.

Putting 'art' in their genre list and saying they don't do nudes ***IN UPPER CASE WITH ASTERISKS*** - all photography is arguably art, so the only possible reason for the inclusion of the 'art' category is that it's an abbreviation of 'art-nude' - if it isn't then MM should bloody well clarify or remove it completely.

Answering a casting call and asking if it's Paid or TFP. Read the casting-call: it tells you.

Answering a casting-call for partial or implied nude and asking if she'll be naked in the studio - no dear, you can wear jeans and a parka! Only the images are implied - you'll still have to get your kit off.

There's bound to be more but it's been a long day and I need some chocolate.

Long day or not, you have managed to cover the most important flags. 

The "personal safety escort" is at the top of the list by a long measure.  I make allowances for newbies and models from outside MM, but any model who has been around for more than a few months and who is too lazy or ignorant to check references or so delusional that she thinks that photographers are automatically predators has given much too little thought to what is needed to be a good model.

Feb 12 13 05:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 2,487
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


Shy L wrote:
-saying in their profile that they will always bring an escort "for their safety".  This just makes me fear for *my* safety. (under 18 I give a pass)
-all pictures in port are edited consistently with each other, even though from different photographers
-mentioning in their profile that they are good at editing images
-Paid assignments only even though has a beginner port
-consistently takes more than 2 days to reply to messages
-mentioning that they have a sense of humour.  This translates in my mind to "she giggles too much to pose effectively"
-signed up 3 years ago but still has a port full of mirror shots

Another worthwhile addition to the list.

I would add to the list profiles written in the third person.  This is usually a tell-tale about someone who takes themselves way too seriously.

Feb 12 13 05:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
afplcc
Posts: 5,991
Fairfax, Virginia, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:
We are of the same mind set here.  (snip)
(3) AND (4) Although I understand that sometimes terms need to be renegotiated, do it in a timely manner.   A commitment is a commitment!  (snip)

Patrick...very good response (that I edited solely for the sake of space).

I have no problem with someone seeking to re-negotiate.  But there's a difference between begging ("Times are tough/I'm short on cash/need some help...so could you pay me more?") vs. providing a counter-offer ("Times are tough, so I'm willing to shoot longer if you'll up the pay" or "it turns out that I'm short money for rent this month.  We'd originally agreed on TF for a lingerie and glamour shoot.  But I'd be willing to pose nude for Z$" or "I'm short money and I can't afford to get my car fixed.  Can we move the shoot to another day my roomie is available so she can drive me....or shoot closer to my place so I won't have to drive?").  I just see a big difference between someone saying "I need money" and effectively begging for it or impling "if you're nice you'll give me some" vs. someone who says "my situation has changed so here's what you get in addition if you can throw this in to what I get from the shoot."

Ed

Feb 13 13 04:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jon Winkleman Photo
Posts: 89
New York, New York, US


I would summarize all red flags under "a delusional expectation for the shoot."

This can be anything from wanting all RAW images, to escorts and entourages, claiming they have an automatic copyright on all images, even after a release is signed they need to give an approval to each and every use of the images.

the biggest delusion is a lack of self awareness as to their type and range.
I like character types and even older and plus sized people. When you get someone who does not go to a gym and has above 20% body fat say they want to be an underwear/fitness model, I know that I will never meet their expectations and any collaboration will end in lots of grief.
Feb 13 13 03:15 pm  Link  Quote 
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