Drew Tommons
Posts: 95
London, England, United Kingdom
SoCo n Lime wrote:
im not sure what you mean by 39 steps
it all feels like a race to the bottom if you believe the hype so to speak.
your personal inflation is under control when your the one setting your pricing and concentrating on service rather than competing on price. to many photogrpahers seem to be concentrating on each other rather than concentrating on themselves.
to set your pricing lower than someone else's in a bid to attract or gain work is a fallacy (if thats the right word to be using).. besides if you keep cutting corners to make yourself cheaper it effects the service and product in a negative way. Buyers/hirers need to believe in the value of your product and have confidence. they will pay your rates if they think your pricing is reasonable. if the majority of quotes say fall within £75 or £150 bracket for each hour then if someone comes in with a £25 or £30 quote do you really think people will not lose confidence and gamble on such a low quote? people will think whats the catch here? why or how can this guy quote this? is this guy experienced enough. can we trust this guy does he give us confidence the answer in most cases would be no and they go with the more reasonable quotations
work out whats right for you and where you want to be. when it comes down to it business to business works a bit different than business to individual shopper/joe public. businesses know they have to pay one another what they're worth to keep their reputation and relationships sound. building up not undermining relationships. thats not to say that when people get too comfy with their pricing and relationships (hike them for little more reason than greed) that they wont be dropped and a more reasonable supplier found
general public may shop by price or want things cheaper, but in the end if you show them or tell them why they should pay you for your quality of service then they will realize that the guy selling the wedding package for half of your value on craiglist, shop window or whereever it is advertised is not worth it
besides just cause someone lists that they sell their services at next to nothing doesn't actually mean he's selling to anyone in actual sales terms
I friend of mine that i hadnt seen for a whil told me that he was struggling to find photographic work.. after seeing his pricing (rock bottom) I told him to put his prices up.. pricing that even he wasn't comfortable with and to his surprise he found that there was more interest in his work
SoCo n Lime wrote: I told him to put his prices up.. pricing that even he wasn't comfortable with and to his surprise he found that there was more interest in his work
This only works if you have the portfolio to back it up, or...
SoCo n Lime wrote: there is allot to say about perception
Perception is probably even more important than a good portfolio, especially on the fashion side of things.
And on a personal note, despite our disagreement on certain subjects, kudos to the OP for actually managing to make a living as a photographer. That's not an easy task these days... for anybody.
Yeah I know - I saw it on facebook. I'd come to your workshop if I was closer as I'm currently working on a bunch of fashion nude/vogue italia look shoots (and it's not going very well).
Hehe. The amount of bullshit I've got away with because I only shoot film. Everyone is usually like "oh! film! you must be good!".....
It's amazing the different perceptions people have.
I shot film for many years and was only too happy to switch to digital because it gives me more control, quicker and more flexible results etc. etc., but young photographers who grew up with digital are all excited by the idea of shooting film, as if it's some kind of mystical process...
LA StarShooter
Posts: 1,035
Beverly Hills, California, US
If I understand your approach correctly you send a contact sheet through email of what you have that is close to what you think the potential client is looking for and then they often respond with a question on rates, a buying question. That's pretty good.
In L.A. a lot of people don't know anybody in the small businesses they would approach and I wasn't sure what you meant by "tie-in."
I going to go after local businesses and reading what you had to say was helpful.
Paul Pickard wrote: It all rather feels like a race to the bottom
How do you put up your prices in a world where everyone wants a better deal and your personal inflation is not under your control
SoCo n Lime wrote: your personal inflation is under control when your the one setting your pricing and concentrating on service rather than competing on price. to many photogrpahers seem to be concentrating on each other rather than concentrating on themselves.
I've thought about writing something like this in the past, but I get lazy and bored so it's never happened (and will probably never happen, lazy and bored being what I do best). However, a few personal comments.
Most of us picked up a camera because we thought it would be cool to shoot pretty girls without much on. Certainly it was what motivated me. It turns out that in order to make a living doing this, you must be fantastically good, and incredibly lucky! (Think, Stan Malinowski.) I am neither. To pay the bills I shot food, architecture, product, grip and grin (events, in my case political events), and the occasional editorial shot of some captain of industry for a magazine. To do this you must stick your nose in a lot of doors. It is no fun, but if you knock on enough doors, you will work. And the first few jobs will eventually lead to more jobs, if you've done it before, clients assume you can do it again.
Doing all of this will teach you the craft of photography. To shoot beautiful girls (fashion and glamour) and get paid, you must learn art. Glamour is probably the most difficult form of photography to succeed at, in that we have been doing it for over three thousand years. The classical Greeks invented (and perfected) glamour, try being original with an art form that old!
So, listen to what Paul (SoCo n Lime) has to say. It's hard work, but if you stick with it you have a chance to stay in the business long enough to get good and to get lucky.
As for the race to the bottom? You can always spot the starting gate, there are a lot of people standing around in a very long line. Enter the race and if you're really unlucky, you will win. As Paul has suggested, you'll have a much more successful career if you never enter that race!
John
--
John Fisher
900 West Avenue, Suite 633
Miami Beach, Florida 33139
305 534-9322
http://www.johnfisher.com
Drew Tommons
Posts: 95
London, England, United Kingdom
John Fisher wrote:
Paul Pickard wrote: It all rather feels like a race to the bottom
How do you put up your prices in a world where everyone wants a better deal and your personal inflation is not under your control
I've thought about writing something like this in the past, but I get lazy and bored so it's never happened (and will probably never happen, lazy and bored being what I do best). However, a few personal comments.
Most of us picked up a camera because we thought it would be cool to shoot pretty girls without much on. Certainly it was what motivated me. It turns out that in order to make a living doing this, you must be fantastically good, and incredibly lucky! (Think, Stan Malinowski.) I am neither. To pay the bills I shot food, architecture, product, grip and grin (events, in my case political events), and the occasional editorial shot of some captain of industry for a magazine. To do this you must stick your nose in a lot of doors. It is no fun, but if you knock on enough doors, you will work. And the first few jobs will eventually lead to more jobs, if you've done it before, clients assume you can do it again.
Doing all of this will teach you the craft of photography. To shoot beautiful girls (fashion and glamour) and get paid, you must learn art. Glamour is probably the most difficult form of photography to succeed at, in that we have been doing it for over three thousand years. The classical Greeks invented (and perfected) glamour, try being original with an art form that old!
So, listen to what Paul (SoCo n Lime) has to say. It's hard work, but if you stick with it you have a chance to stay in the business long enough to get good and to get lucky.
As for the race to the bottom? You can always spot the starting gate, there are a lot of people standing around in a very long line. Enter the race and if you're really unlucky, you will win. As Paul has suggested, you'll have a much more successful career if you never enter that race!
John
--
John Fisher
900 West Avenue, Suite 633
Miami Beach, Florida 33139
305 534-9322
http://www.johnfisher.com
Derek Ridgers
Posts: 662
London, England, United Kingdom
I've watched this thread develop and one thing that strikes me is that there's something very counter-intuitive about your enthusiastic, generalist approach insofar as you're more or less going around advertising the fact that anyone could do this for themselves. Including your current clients, if they wanted to.
You might think your portfolio is better than that, I might think that too but how many non-professional photographers could tell the difference? After seeing this, any client with an iPhone or an iPad might be inspired to have a go at it themselves.
Without any discernible (to me) singular photographic point of view, this seems almost like planned obsolescence.
Derek Ridgers wrote: You might think your portfolio is better than that, I might think that too but how many non-professional photographers could tell the difference? After seeing this, any client with an iPhone or an iPad might be inspired to have a go at it themselves.
One of the peculiar features of photography is that the technology MAY enable an inexperienced amateur to get professional looking results. To shoot a conceptually simple shot of a simple subject, in good light is often straightforward.
However, a shoot that is very straightforward and quick for someone competent still may present many ways of totally screwing it up to the novice. It's not unusual for new direct clients to approach me with " we tried to shoot it ourselves but the photos looked terrible".
Even if clients think they can have a go themselves experience will likely tell them otherwise.
SoCo n Lime wrote: like you, i live in a smaller city.. mine is around a million i found it beneficial to cast the net quite wide to make a living. being specialist or niche (concentrating on only one thing) doesn't really work in my experience in todays market (so hands in many pies so to speak)
"Smaller city?"
My city is 1800 people. There are about 20,000 within a 20 mile radius of me.
Robert Jewett
Posts: 2,257
al-MarsÄ, Tunis, Tunisia
SoCo n Lime wrote: hi paul i replied by PM just there to clear my position up
i would also prefer a little anonymity if you don't mind MM.. i have worked hard (for the past 2 years) at keeping my professional side and personal profiles separate. (out of search engines)
and this sentence is directed at the people that do already know my site- please respect my wishes and do not post any links
If you appreciate anonymity, you might just want to take your name out of your metadata. LOL.
Dan OMell
Posts: 856
Charlotte, North Carolina, US
> How I make a living from my photography
shoot ads for Big Pharma Mafia or all-pseudo-natural additives for dumb majority (people are lazy and LOVE miracle pills!), and you gonna sit on gold
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