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This thread was locked on 2013-02-17 13:54:12. Reason: This has gotten so far off topic it has run right off the tracks.
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Model
Rosemarie Bennet
Posts: 143
Warrington, Pennsylvania, US


Yan Tan Tethera wrote:
I bring my magic wand.

Hate it when Bellatrix brings the dark lord as her http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/88-90_Ford_Escort_Wagon.jpg/120px-88-90_Ford_Escort_Wagon.jpg.

Feb 15 13 05:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Rays Fine Art wrote:
If so, given all the recent shootings we've had in this country, the number of threads currently active in off-topic and how frequently the question is raised in the industry forums, as a conversational gambit, it's in execrable taste.

Yes, extremely "ex·e·cra·ble" taste...because everyone knows the most important thing in the world is to be politically correct and to please others.

Who cares about valid safety questions and such, when being perceived to be in "good taste" SO MUCH more important.

My goodness, I do declare (southern drawl)...I believe this whole thread has just given me the vapors. My heavens, how will I sleep tonight? Why here it is almost Springtime, and my heart just positively brims with anticipation as we wait eagerly for the first flush of flowers...and "someone" has the "poor taste" to discuss such a topic. Oh my, I feel so flush...I may faint.

/sarcasm. Rolls eyes.

Feb 15 13 05:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
r T p
Posts: 2,715
Los Angeles, California, US


Anna Von Leigh wrote:
We all have our bag full of clothes and makeup, do you also carry a knife? Gun? Taser?


i
recommend a Hattori Hanzo sword

Feb 15 13 05:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bravo Magic Images
Posts: 765
Temple City, California, US


I always have a few bouncers on hand in case a model shows up with a tomy gun in her purse or if she shows up at my front door with a Louie Slogger.
Feb 15 13 05:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Anna Von Leigh
Posts: 120
Chico, California, US


cy be rea n wrote:


i
recommend a Hattori Hanzo sword

I hear they're hard to come by...

Feb 15 13 05:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
Your world maybe - ours is fine by comparison. big_smile

Who exactly is "ours"?

I love it when someone comes on a forum and uses words like "we think" and "our opinion" as if they represent others, in addition to themselves (and the turd in their pocket). Comical.

I'll think (and speak) for MYSELF, thank you. That's my USA.

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g461/TyPortfolio/godblessamerica_zps227c76d4.jpg

FYI wrote:
Associated Press
Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:20 PM
KABUL, Afghanistan -- The Afghan army is training female special forces to take part in night raids against insurgents, breaking new ground in an ultraconservative society and filling a vacuum left by departing international forces.

“If men can carry out this duty, why not women?” asks Lena Abdali, a 23-year-old Afghan soldier who was one of the first women to join one of the special units in 2011.

Some women take responsibility for even more than their OWN safety.

Feb 15 13 05:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 6,124
New York, New York, US


Another gun debate...who got the popcorn?
Feb 15 13 05:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rp_photo
Posts: 42,477
Houston, Texas, US


GPS Studio Services wrote:
Have we gotten to the point where we need weapons to protect ourselves from each other?

My main concern are 2 and 4-legged third party threats.

Many of my recent shoots have been in feral hog country.

Feb 15 13 05:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,750
Olivet, Michigan, US


Anna Von Leigh wrote:
Ok kids, I want to get other models ideas on this subject. Feeling protected on photo shoots. I'm talking about bringing a weapon or pepper spray, or something of that matter to a shoot.

We all have our bag full of clothes and makeup, do you also carry a knife? Gun? Taser?


*EDITED*

A lot of the models I shoot with seem to not bring clothing, or makeup.  I don't think they bring knives either, and I'm rather glad.  I'd hate to think the model I was shooting with was that scared of me.  And that naive.

Feb 15 13 05:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,750
Olivet, Michigan, US


Dani Nikole Feist wrote:
I always check references, bring pepper spray, text all my friends and family the times and location and name of person I am shooting with just in case. I'm not paranoid, I would expect someone to do the same to me. You never know nowadays. But I'm also that girl who can't go to the bathroom alone in a public place

You would expect people you work with to fear you enough to bring pepper spray?  I don't.  I expect them to communicate with me, and check up on me, enough to feel comfortable being alone with me.  And, to leave notice of where they are as a backup.

And, I guess that if we ever shoot, it won't be in a public place, because I'm not going to guard you in the bathroom.

Feb 15 13 06:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,750
Olivet, Michigan, US


Light and Lens Studio wrote:
Thanks for a perfect example of forum posters that only look at things from their own microcosmic perspective.

Well, a model who is legally carrying is likely to tell the photographer that she is 'packing' .   I would not feel at all threatened if a model informed me that she's going to be carrying firearms.  I would still verify that she is permitted and qualified to do so and inform her that her weapon is welcome as long at there's no round in the chamber while on set.

I don't find it insulting at all that a model brings a firearm to a shoot.  Nor do I consider it an indication that she doesn't trust me.  Where I live and work, a large percentage of the population "carries".  Frankly, I admire people who have the spine to provide for their own protection rather than rely upon someone to come 'save them'  And, in the event that our shoot might be interrupted by persons who coveted the photographic equipment or the model herself, well, two guns are better protection than one.

As noted above, there's a huge difference between a model with a CCW, who routinely carries, and someone who brings a weapon BECAUSE it's a photo shoot, and therefore http://assets.modelmayhem.com/images/smilies/scary.png.

Feb 15 13 06:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,750
Olivet, Michigan, US


Digiography wrote:
I'm so glad I live where I don't have to worry about this scenario happening to me, I can't even fathom such a situation, sad that people live in situations where they feel the need for such weaponry.

It's kind of amazing to think that no one in Canada is dangerous.  Or paranoid.  Sounds like you're living in a USA fantasy version of Canada.

Feb 15 13 06:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,750
Olivet, Michigan, US


Leone P wrote:
Sorry if that sounded bitchy and judgemental. Just boggles my mind a little. Guns and knives etc just aren't common at all in the UK. The only time you hear of them are on the news and that's not very often!

I frequently use knives to prepare dinner.  Fortunately, I live in a place where that's legal.

Feb 15 13 06:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Leone P wrote:
Sorry if that sounded bitchy and judgemental. Just boggles my mind a little. Guns and knives etc just aren't common at all in the UK. The only time you hear of them are on the news and that's not very often!
Art of the nude wrote:
I frequently use knives to prepare dinner.  Fortunately, I live in a place where that's legal.

+1

In fact, I even run with scissors sometimes. But, we live on the "edge" here in the USA!

Feb 15 13 09:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Leone P
Posts: 515
Batley, England, United Kingdom


Leone P wrote:
I am lucky enough to have never set eyes on a guy or any other weapon. The only knives i have are for cooking / eating. I would never consider taking one outside my front door.

Not reading the full thread? Or just picking out the bits that suit you?

Feb 16 13 02:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,255
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


ArtisticGlamour wrote:

RKD Photographic wrote:
Your world maybe - ours is fine by comparison. big_smile

Who exactly is "ours"?

I love it when someone comes on a forum and uses words like "we think" and "our opinion" as if they represent others, in addition to themselves (and the turd in their pocket). Comical.

I'll think (and speak) for MYSELF, thank you. That's my USA.

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g461/TyPortfolio/godblessamerica_zps227c76d4.jpg


Some women take responsibility for even more than their OWN safety.

*yawn*

...and yet in rural areas, Afghan women are still banned from schools, routinely sold to older men as 'wives' used as virtual slave labour and routinely raped by their husbands with no legal recourse - I've been there in person, by the way - quite a few times. big_smile

I photographed a story on Afghan women SF commandos back in 2009 and they were as useless as tits on a fish - the whole story was a sop to Western sensibilities to counter the bad press stories about the systemic failures to address women's rights by the Karzai government.

The only Afghan women I met who were any good was on another visit back in 2004 while covering a story about the Afghan Police in Mazar-e-Sharif. We met some older police officers who had been former mujahadin - one of them told us how she used to peel the skin off captured Russian soldiers... Nice lady. big_smile

So when I say things like I did earlier it's with the perspective of someone who's seen shit in real life in a number of really shitty places and not just parrotting some shit they read online.

If there's shit in my pocket, it probably got there while I was lying in a shit-filled ditch taking cover from some shit-head with an AK... smile

Feb 16 13 02:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
D-Light
Posts: 516
Newcastle, Limerick, Ireland


KonstantKarma wrote:
Does money solve every problem or does it make them worse? We're talking about tools here. Tools don't have a brain.  They only do what you use them to do - Money can start a charity or fund a terrorist organization. The one who holds it is the decider.

I think you're missing the point here. Introducing guns makes any situation more dangerous. If models bring guns with them on shoots, photographers will feel the need to bring a gun also.

No one carries a gun unless they are willing to use it. It could result in shoot outs at photo shoots, simply because someone felt threatened. Without guns common sense usually prevails.

I know tools and guns don't have a brain but I do know that a lot of the people who carry them are dangerous idiots.

Feb 16 13 05:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KonstantKarma
Posts: 2,512
Hickory, North Carolina, US


Leone P wrote:
Who knows haha! If i was to see said weapong, you can bet i would run as fast as my little legs could carry me whilst screaming "crazy gun man!!" the whole way lol!


Maybe it's just because i live in the UK but guns just aren't cool. sad

Which is unfortunate. Only the outlaws where you live are armed, creating preconceived notions. Here, the good guys are here to protect and help out each other. smile  You have to remember we live in a free country across the pond.

Good example: Last year my grandma and I got cornered in the house by a rabid raccoon. (True story!)  Our neighbor had to shoot it for us.  I'd never seen a rabid animal before... the noises it made were beyond http://assets.modelmayhem.com/images/smilies/scary.png.

Feb 16 13 05:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
D-Light
Posts: 516
Newcastle, Limerick, Ireland


London Fog wrote:

+1

Some really fucked up ideas on here!

+1

Feb 16 13 05:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KonstantKarma
Posts: 2,512
Hickory, North Carolina, US


D-Light wrote:

I think you're missing the point here. Introducing guns makes any situation more dangerous....

You made a blanket statement that models or women who carry a weapon for protection is a bad idea.

If a woman looks like this, she probably doesn't need anything for self-defense:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4IqAMwAGn1w/TB-cBklqguI/AAAAAAAAWzs/sQsOzWJ8VbU/s1600/muscle_woman.jpg

But that's not what my models look like. hmm

Feb 16 13 05:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
D-Light
Posts: 516
Newcastle, Limerick, Ireland


KonstantKarma wrote:
Which is unfortunate. Only the outlaws where you live are armed, creating preconceived notions. Here, the good guys are here to protect and help out each other. smile

How sure are that their reaction is correct? Maybe they are over reacting and they don't know until someone is dead. Maybe the guy you think is a good guy is just a trigger happy nutcase.

As in the Uk "only the outlaws are armed" here. We don't have the same level of violent crime as you. Our murder rate is one of the lowest in the world. Perhaps it's because guns are rare or maybe it's because people's attitudes are different.

Feb 16 13 05:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KonstantKarma
Posts: 2,512
Hickory, North Carolina, US


D-Light wrote:
I know tools and guns don't have a brain but I do know that a lot of the people who carry them are dangerous idiots.

Where? smile

Feb 16 13 05:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KonstantKarma
Posts: 2,512
Hickory, North Carolina, US


D-Light wrote:

How sure are that their reaction is correct? Maybe they are over reacting and they don't know until someone is dead. Maybe the guy you think is a good guy is just a trigger happy nutcase.

As in the Uk "only the outlaws are armed" here. We don't have the same level of violent crime as you. Our murder rate is one of the lowest in the world. Perhaps it's because guns are rare or maybe it's because people's attitudes are different.

Well, it's getting way too sidetracked and soapboxy for my taste... Personally speaking, I've never been murdered.

Back to the discussion at hand, here's a good deal on some pink keychain mace, as was mentioned by a previous model:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/6-1605051

Feb 16 13 05:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
Your post...

Well said...I mistook you for another mindless robot who thinks they speak for everyone (by parroting the "party-line"). wink Sound instead like a "stand-up" individual.  So, you've been to the USA to compare life, and you find Germany (or UK) so much better?

Feb 16 13 05:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KonstantKarma
Posts: 2,512
Hickory, North Carolina, US


I personally enjoy RKD on the forums, even if he is German and a little different-minded. wink
Feb 16 13 06:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


KonstantKarma wrote:
I personally enjoy RKD on the forums, even if he is German and a little different-minded. wink

Yeah, after reading his "wry humor" and profile (he's misplaced UK), you can add me to the RKD fan base. wink LOL! I don't mind attempts to be "put in my place" occasionally, as long as it's done well! LOL!

I've signed the blank check and been to a few shitty places too, but never as nice as UK or Germany to see how that wonderful lifestyle compares. MOST of the "gun free" places I've been to, the "outlaws" still had guns (like the AK he speaks of)...and so did the (usually corrupt) "government"...and it was the citizenry that was caught (unarmed) in the middle...taking cover in a "shit filled ditch", so-to-speak.
No thanks.

I STILL believe in the "basic" USA...but that "concept" does seem to be fading fast. Sadly, more "European" everyday.

I'll still vote to keep my rights to protect MYSELF, thank you.

Feb 16 13 06:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
David-Harrison
Posts: 110
Swindon, England, United Kingdom


Gabby57 wrote:
Yep, must be because you live in the UK, or as some others here with similar views in an urban center, because guns are a lot of fun, bought my grand daughter a pink .22 for her tenth birthday last year.  She loves it when her dad takes her shooting.  It's all about cultural tolerance and education.

Aww how cute, a pink gun for a 10 year old.

And by 'cute' I mean jaw-droppingly screwed-up.

Feb 16 13 06:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gabby57
Posts: 346
Coppell, Texas, US


David-Harrison wrote:

Aww how cute, a pink gun for a 10 year old.

And by 'cute' I mean jaw-droppingly screwed-up.

So much for cultural tolerance I see.  Far better to raise children to remain children, forever terrified of inanimate objects, they make better "subjects" that way.

Feb 16 13 06:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gabby57
Posts: 346
Coppell, Texas, US


rp_photo wrote:

My main concern are 2 and 4-legged third party threats.

Many of my recent shoots have been in feral hog country.

This is a very real and under-reported issue. I know people who've been charged by very large feral hogs, one was armed the other spent two days and nights up a tree.

Feb 16 13 06:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


David-Harrison wrote:
Aww how cute, a pink gun for a 10 year old.

And by 'cute' I mean jaw-droppingly screwed-up.
Gabby57 wrote:
So much for cultural tolerance I see.  Far better to raise children to remain children, forever terrified of inanimate objects, they make better "subjects" that way.

Don't worry Gabby! It's just another who's probably never been here, throwing stones at our "lifestyle" from across the vast ocean.

Someday they'll need us (and our weapons) again...and their tune will change quickly.

They're happy to let someone else "protect" them. It's their culture, they're used to it.

Feb 16 13 06:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
So when I say things like I did earlier it's with the perspective of someone who's seen shit in real life in a number of really shitty places and not just parrotting some shit they read online.

If there's shit in my pocket, it probably got there while I was lying in a shit-filled ditch taking cover from some shit-head with an AK.

LOL! No, I've never been to A-stan...seems I was too "old" (and f#@ked up) to get back in (at age 45). wink And yes I was posting from the Associated Press article. 

So I have to ask...who was protecting YOU (and your camera) while you were taking cover from the shit-heads with the AK's? Some Afghan chicks with gunz? American Uniforms? British Soldiers?

RKD Photographic wrote:
We met some older police officers who had been former mujahadin - one of them told us how she used to peel the skin off captured Russian soldiers...Nice lady.

So, any (AP? LOL!) photo-links of your work above?

Feb 16 13 06:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
photo212grapher
Posts: 1,529
Saint Louis, Missouri, US


Gabby57 wrote:

So much for cultural tolerance I see.  Far better to raise children to remain children, forever terrified of inanimate objects, they make better "subjects" that way.

+1

Feb 16 13 06:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,255
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


ArtisticGlamour wrote:

LOL! No I've never been to A-stan...seems I was too "old" to get back in at age 45. wink
And yes I was posting from the Associated Press article. 

So I have to ask...who was protecting YOU while you were taking cover from the shit-heads with the AK's?

Got any good (AP? LOL!) photo-links of your work above?

I was actually planning on moving to the US last year (it fell through as the promised work never materialised) and probably would have armed myself accordingly - I would have been living with my family in Detroit, MA and actually working in the more deprived areas with drug-addicts and other people with social problems...so... "hello Mr Sig-Sauer P226 and hello Mr S&W M&P 1911-PD, nice to make your acquaintance..."

But I probably wouldn't have had them in the studio with me.

I was armed in Afghan and Iraq: this is me after a particularly spirited run trying to catch up with a bunch of US Marines who'd forgotten we were with them - about ten minutes before this was taken by a USMC Photographer, we'd been in a fire-fight with two insurgents and I was shooting bullets, not photos and was trying to baby-sit two BBC journalists and one print journalist at the time as well as trying to corral the two (very green) Marines who were with us.

I make no apologies for looking completely FUBAR'd - I'm 50 now and was 47 then.
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4052/4221873805_349c3da714_z.jpg

More photos here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/arkady001/ … 594287441/

Or Google (images):
Sergeant Rob Knight; Corporal Rob Knight
...etc. to see where the images were used (though it pulls up a lot of unrelated crap as well).

What I carried:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5041/5372383381_fdd451cf1d_z.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2488/4178328218_19088376c1_z.jpg


So - as you can see: I'm not 'anti-gun' - far from it - I used to have an extensive collection myself when they were still legal in the UK - but only when it's actually necessary. I think firearms in the hands of an untrained individual pose more problems than they solve - and I'm not merely talking about safe-handling proficiency and accuracy, but also when to use and when not to use.

I see no reason for models, MUAs or photographers (or any civilians, come to that) to be armed either with firearms or pepper-spray just going to a photo-shoot (although as another poster has pointed out, this should not apply to someone who has a concealed carry-permit and is routinely armed anyway).

US citizens have a legal right to carry firearms to protect them from the tyranny of the Government and far be it for me to argue with that... I just wonder how many people here over-exaggerate the tyranny of photographers... big_smile

Feb 16 13 08:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
Your post...another great post Bro!

That GEAR looks pretty FNG! wink LOL!

But, there's always a cold beer waiting for you here in "the AZ"! LOL!  Probaly 18rounds on the Golf course too. Anyone who's there at age 47 get's my admiration. F#@ked up, or not! LOL!

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g461/TyPortfolio/ale.jpg
These are on me...just don't..fk'n drink 'em..piss warm! wink

Feb 16 13 08:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


RKD Photographic wrote:
I think firearms in the hands of an untrained individual pose more problems than they solve - and I'm not merely talking about safe-handling proficiency and accuracy, but also when to use and when not to use.

THIS!

Training, training, training! The BRAIN is the weapon...all else is just the tools.

Feb 16 13 08:17 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
KonstantKarma
Posts: 2,512
Hickory, North Carolina, US


Gabby57 wrote:

So much for cultural tolerance I see.  Far better to raise children to remain children, forever terrified of inanimate objects, they make better "subjects" that way.

Much of Europe we consider the children of the world - And like all children, we are there to protect them - Even when we say "Now, this is the last time!" They know we don't mean it. smile

Feb 16 13 08:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,255
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


ArtisticGlamour wrote:
I STILL believe in the "basic" USA...but that "concept" does seem to be fading fast. Sadly, more "European" everyday.

I'll still vote to keep my rights to protect MYSELF, thank you.

I think this is where the problem lies - correct me if I'm wrong, but I've had it explained thus: most US citizens would rather die in poverty than accept 'interference' from a Federal Government and this is a completely alien concept to most Europeans, who expect - demand, even - the Government to control everything - up to a point, anyway. And we pay handsomely for it. We are taxed to the hilt - Germany more than the UK and (I think) Norway and Sweden more than anyone else.

Once you (we) get your head around the concept of an individual wanting to be completely free of all government interference and oversight, the US model becomes easier to understand.
Remember, many of the people who originally left Europe for the US wanted to be completely self-sufficient, as 'government' to them at that time meant unbearable restrictions, persecution, poverty and even death.

Once you take this view: "I don't want the local or central Govt. to be responsible for my safety, I don't want to pay more taxes than absolutely necessary, I just want to do my own thing" (and remember income tax was fought against bitterly in Washington and was originally introduced as a war-measure, to be rescinded on the cessation of hostilities, though as with most taxes, once they're in, they stay), then it becomes easier to see why our bewilderment at current US gun-policy is as equally baffling to them. Under those conditions an individual might very well be justified in his 'need' of firearms as opposed to merely 'wanting' them.
A lot of Texans don't even want to be part of the US at all!

Feb 16 13 08:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,255
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


ArtisticGlamour wrote:

But, that GEAR looks pretty FNG! wink LOL!

We finally started getting new issues for every Tour. This was the first week in-theatre... You should have seen it after a few trips outside the wire... hmm

Feb 16 13 08:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brett Hunt
Posts: 953
Washington Court House, Ohio, US


I am all for gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be the one who controls it
Feb 16 13 08:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ArtisticGlamour
Posts: 3,846
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Your idea about "most Americans" (philosophy) is pretty much spot-on...for me personally, anyway. I never try to speak for others.

I'm not a die hard conservative...but an independent. For example, I wish we had your health care, because more and more of us are without it. Our employers have sold us out, overseas. But, that's another thread. LOL!

I grew up with guns (Alaska, Military, etc) and so they are just a tool to me, an old and familiar tool...so, I don't FEAR them at all. I appreciate their protection (4legged and 2legged predators). But, I also believe like any tool it boils down to proper Training, training, training...and I think pepper spray might be a better suggestion for many (most?) models.
Feb 16 13 08:25 am  Link  Quote 
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