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Makeup Artist
Tasha Johnson
Posts: 6
Dallas, Texas, US


I am still building my portfolio so I am willing to do a TFP shoot with a photographer so we can get the feel of each other. They get to see my work in person and in exchange I am to get prints or digital images back and my name should always be listed as MUA when the images are used. I thought this was simple enough,but so far I have worked with 3 different photographers on TFP shoots and have only gotten prints back from one. I also found out the other two dont and have not ever listed my name as MUA when using pictures of MY work. So far i always have verbal agreements on the look and amount of prints i am to get back. Should there be contracts involved with TFP or am I just working with the wrong people? Is there a time frame by which you should expect prints? (I was thinking a month but how should I know?!). How do you make sure you are listed as MUA? This is just getting really annoying, Someone Help!
Feb 15 13 07:40 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Jaime Criel Makeup
Posts: 149
New York, New York, US


Unfortunately, this happens all the time. Welcome to the industry hmm It is recommended that you write up a deal memo even for TFP shoots. If I don't have the time to write a deal memo, I'll at least email the person including all information about the shoot so that it is in writing. In reality, you'll still be screwed sometimes but at least you can send them the emails/deal memo that were created as a reminder. Most photogs should get you the shots from the shoot within a month. It's your responsibility to follow up with them as much as possible and sometimes, in the end, just make a note of who NOT to work with again and move on.
Feb 15 13 08:48 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Bloom Makeup Artistry
Posts: 349
New York, New York, US


I don't ask for contracts anymore because in all honesty they mean absolutely nothing. #1 most of them aren't legally binding, #2 are you really going to pay a lawyer to uphold the contract in the case of the photographer not doing their part of the deal?

If you work with reputable people it shouldn't be an issue because they want to maintain a good reputation. It was when I first started out with the "at home" photographers that I really got the bad end of the deal. There was no way I was going to pay a lawyer or even go to court over some photos so in the end the contracts I had were worthless. I guess having something in writing puts some pressure on people but some people could really care less about what a piece of paper you wrote up says.

That's just my own experience though!
Feb 15 13 09:05 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Tasha Johnson
Posts: 6
Dallas, Texas, US


It just getting really frustrating. I always follow up to see when prints will be available but the photographers I've had stop emailing back and don't answer phone calls or texts. I've done amazing work and I have no proof from them. The surprising part to me was that everyone I've worked with was very pleased with the work and even booked me for later shoots which they ended up flaking on after I didn't get my prints. I think I should start checking references, because I've wasted a lot of time, money, and makeup!
Feb 15 13 09:43 am  Link  Quote 
Body Painter
Lisa Berczel
Posts: 3,980
Corona, California, US


Here's a good read that Search brought up:
http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=495010
Feb 15 13 10:04 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Tasha Johnson
Posts: 6
Dallas, Texas, US


Thanks I see this has been an issue for others as well. But I guess all I can do is count it as a lose and chose carefully next time
Feb 15 13 10:16 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
BMR-MUA
Posts: 548
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Tasha West wrote:
I am still building my portfolio so I am willing to do a TFP shoot with a photographer so we can get the feel of each other. They get to see my work in person and in exchange I am to get prints or digital images back and my name should always be listed as MUA when the images are used. I thought this was simple enough,but so far I have worked with 3 different photographers on TFP shoots and have only gotten prints back from one. I also found out the other two dont and have not ever listed my name as MUA when using pictures of MY work. So far i always have verbal agreements on the look and amount of prints i am to get back. Should there be contracts involved with TFP or am I just working with the wrong people? Is there a time frame by which you should expect prints? (I was thinking a month but how should I know?!). How do you make sure you are listed as MUA? This is just getting really annoying, Someone Help!

As mentioned by others use a Deal Memo or you can use a Letter of Agreement. Both are simple to write. You can find definitions of both here When writing make use of industry standards like PLUS (image licensing) and UPDIG (image delivery). You should also receive a copy of the model release before the shoot so you can review it and see if it meets your requirements. Copies of all model releases should be given to you, the makeup artist, along with the images. Model releases are often necessary when you publish or otherwise make public a model's image in a commercial context.

Feb 15 13 10:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,925
Santa Ana, California, US


In all too many situations (which this seems one), a formal contract is complete overkill. I likely would be reluctant to sign one just to test. Never been presented with one.
Someone mentioned what they're calling a 'deal memo'. It just informally outlines your agreement. Do a deal memo or engagement letter, if you wish to have a record of the agreement. It doesn't need any contractual language.
Feb 15 13 10:19 am  Link  Quote 
Body Painter
Lisa Berczel
Posts: 3,980
Corona, California, US


Another consideration - sometimes a shoot just doesn't work out. In those cases, a photographer may NOT want ANY images released.
Feb 15 13 10:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


General rule is: you get what you pay for.

If you want any photographer other than a complete novice to sign any kind of  contract specifying deliverables then you're almost certainly going to have to PAY for that privilege.

Otherwise, try to choose who you trade with more carefully - look for evidence of their work in other MUAs' profiles, ask around people they've worked with to see if they were happy with the outcome etc. etc..




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com
Feb 15 13 11:42 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Bloom Makeup Artistry
Posts: 349
New York, New York, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
General rule is: you get what you pay for.

If you want any photographer other than a complete novice to sign any kind of  contract specifying deliverables then you're almost certainly going to have to PAY for that privilege.

Otherwise, try to choose who you trade with more carefully - look for evidence of their work in other MUAs' profiles, ask around people they've worked with to see if they were happy with the outcome etc. etc..




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

I going to have to disagree. I think you CAN get amazing photos from TF shoots if you are extremely selective. I have agency photographers who want to TF with me along with many photographers who have their work featured in magazines. Of course in order to get to that level of TF you need to get descent photos to put in your port first but it is totally possible to get amazing photos from TF shoots if you are working with the right team of people.

You have to think of each TF shoot as a stepping stone. You need to up your standards each time you shoot.


The TF shoots that I have found come out the best are those where the whole team has a mutual need for the photos.

Feb 15 13 11:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,559
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


Tasha West wrote:
am I just working with the wrong people?

Yes.

Feb 15 13 12:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,135
Portland, Oregon, US


In general, the "contracts" is hear about in these situations are a waste of paper.  Unless you have legal training, these contracts are unclear & unenforceable.  Such a contract would have to address the follow:
...  Number & format of the TF* images.
...  Due date for the delivery of said images.
...  Penalties for failure to deliver.
...  Penalties for failure to arrive on time.
...  Who can license the images.
...  What happens if one party wants to license the image & the other party doesn't?
...  Who is responsible if/when legal issues arise?
...  How are disputes resolved?
...  Who is represented in any watermark?
...  Can the MUA edit the images?  If so, under what circumstances?

And so forth.  I could go on.  My point is that these "contracts" can become very complex very fast -- in fact, it can become complex enough that I'd want to have the proposed contract reviewed by my own lawyer.  'Tis easier to find a lower maintenance MUA.

To comment on some of your specific questions & statements:


Tasha West wrote:
I also found out the other two dont and have not ever listed my name as MUA when using pictures of MY work.

Sometimes, that's out of the photographer's hands (depending on the usage).


Tasha West wrote:
So far i always have verbal agreements on the look and amount of prints i am to get back.

There's nothing wrong in summarizing your understanding in an e-mail.  That's my preferred way to conduct these kind of negotiations.


Tasha West wrote:
Should there be contracts involved with TFP or am I just working with the wrong people?

As mentioned above -- contracts written by legal amateurs can be picked apart so easily and are often not complete or clear.  It's a waste of time.

Yes, you might be working with the wrong people.  I suggest you improve your "photographer selection" process.  In particular, get to know your local community and check references with the people who know & trust you.


Tasha West wrote:
Is there a time frame by which you should expect prints? (I was thinking a month but how should I know?!).

That varies greatly from photographer to photographer.  It's a worthwhile thing to discuss before committing to work together.  Also, I tend to advise that the people who are waiting for image delivery grant the photographer all the time requested plus another 10% - 20%, because unexpected things happen, and often, TF* work, by its nature, is of lower priority.


Tasha West wrote:
How do you make sure you are listed as MUA? This is just getting really annoying, Someone Help!

You & your photographer should document (e-mail?) your expectations before committing to work together.  If the photographer doesn't list you, politely ask for the credit.  Understand that in some cases, he cannot list his team.  If a photographer screws you, feel free to tell your story to your local MUAs who know and have reason to trust you, but never badmouth a photographer to strangers.

Feb 15 13 12:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 7,559
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
General rule is: you get what you pay for.

If you want any photographer other than a complete novice to sign any kind of  contract specifying deliverables then you're almost certainly going to have to PAY for that privilege.

Otherwise, try to choose who you trade with more carefully - look for evidence of their work in other MUAs' profiles, ask around people they've worked with to see if they were happy with the outcome etc. etc..




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com
Bloom Makeup Artistry wrote:
I going to have to disagree. I think you CAN get amazing photos from TF shoots if you are extremely selective. I have agency photographers who want to TF with me along with many photographers who have their work featured in magazines. Of course in order to get to that level of TF you need to get descent photos to put in your port first but it is totally possible to get amazing photos from TF shoots if you are working with the right team of people.

You have to think of each TF shoot as a stepping stone. You need to up your standards each time you shoot.


The TF shoots that I have found come out the best are those where the whole team has a mutual need for the photos.

What are you disagreeing with?

Feb 15 13 12:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Cynna Stylz MUA
Posts: 216
New York, New York, US


Tasha West wrote:
I thought this was simple enough,but so far I have worked with 3 different photographers on TFP shoots and have only gotten prints back from one. I also found out the other two don't and have not ever listed my name as MUA when using pictures of MY work. So far i always have verbal agreements on the look and amount of prints i am to get back. Should there be contracts involved with TFP or am I just working with the wrong people?

I can understand your dismay. I've been thru it my self too. I have started using a deal memo that resembles a bit of info on my profile along with a stipulation of edited and unedited, good and bad ( for my review only for learning purposes) photos. I have found that when some (not all)  photographers are so interested in creating works of beautiful art  and photography and LOVE my port... I get spidey senses. I check to see if they credit anyone (including MUAs). I ask for references.  I check their Facebook page. I Google them. They leave a good trail of info to find because they are trying to be the next big thing and they want you ( me ) to join the ride to be part of the success that would lead us ( them) to big paychecks. Basically we (me too) all want the same thing, to create beautiful work.

Back to Deal Memos. Its an agreement that says for my part (MUA) you will give me ______. Many agree with no problems. Others have said Thanks but I will get someone else (code for I don't need you to call me out on my BS). Then I am happy this TFP "job" didn't work for him because I have saved myself from the stress of not getting my pics.

So, you have seen your work already on their sites? Copy the image, save the image. You may not be able to get it in hi-def  and not with printing but now you will have it on file as proof for yourself.

Send an email everyday for a week with a screen shot of what you found on the internet. Tag yourself on FB if it allows.  Tag their MM page with an UNhappy sad (of which they can delete at any time) or vent on http://flakereport.com/ 

I do think it will be clear that you will not be working for them anytime soon.

Just my thoughts.... I wish you much success.

Cynna
Feb 16 13 10:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Liquid Lace Studios
Posts: 196
Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia


I going to have to disagree. I think you CAN get amazing photos from TF shoots if you are extremely selective. I have agency photographers who want to TF with me along with many photographers who have their work featured in magazines. Of course in order to get to that level of TF you need to get descent photos to put in your port first but it is totally possible to get amazing photos from TF shoots if you are working with the right team of people.

You have to think of each TF shoot as a stepping stone. You need to up your standards each time you shoot.


The TF shoots that I have found come out the best are those where the whole team has a mutual need for the photos.

+1

I absolutely agree, I've done two TF shoots dedicated to the makeup artist, they never get the credit they deserve.

I have two more TF shoots planned with makeup artists later this year.

Just another 2 cents worth

Feb 17 13 12:48 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Tasha Johnson
Posts: 6
Dallas, Texas, US


Thank everyone or their replies. Deal demos sound like the direction I will go in when dealing with TFP shoots in the future. Detailed emails seem to also be a good solution. I guess I was just going into it too trustworthy that people would make good on their end of the bargain. I know their are better photographers out there. I just have to weed through the bad.
Feb 17 13 11:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


Bloom Makeup Artistry wrote:

I going to have to disagree. I think you CAN get amazing photos from TF shoots if you are extremely selective. I have agency photographers who want to TF with me along with many photographers who have their work featured in magazines. Of course in order to get to that level of TF you need to get descent photos to put in your port first but it is totally possible to get amazing photos from TF shoots if you are working with the right team of people.

You have to think of each TF shoot as a stepping stone. You need to up your standards each time you shoot.


The TF shoots that I have found come out the best are those where the whole team has a mutual need for the photos.

Isn't this exactly what he said? Be selective and choose the right people for TF*...or pay to ensure you're getting what you want?

Feb 17 13 11:17 am  Link  Quote 
Makeup Artist
Ms BSK
Posts: 886
Brooklyn, New York, US


Just keep testing with better photographers. If someone blows you off and it does just consider it earning your stripes. I don't get too worked up about deal memos for tests because you reach a certain level of talent and they know they have to deliver. This is a small industry and no one wants to be known as the douche that didn't deliver. You just have to get to that level of work and that happens by testing often and working your way up to the better photographers. It has been a long time since someone has stiffed me on images. I've had to wait a long time for them in some cases due to life happening but I usually get something.

Just my two cents.
Feb 18 13 12:19 am  Link  Quote 
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