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Photographer
Terrell Gates
Posts: 1,042
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


I am getting extremely frustrated by the lack of venues for the kind of work I do, and am hoping to get some constructive feedback on my question...

I have been painting, drawing, and photographing nude figures and portraits for over 50 years and can't find a gallery with the courage and wherewithall to show my work... So I have decided to have a go at opening a gallery of my own here in Santa Fe, NM where we have 300+ galleries already...

I am wondering if you think a gallery featuring Nudes and Portraits would have a chance of surviving today's attitudes about images of the Nude...

This image is typical of the kind of work I would present... You'll have to picture him nude or visit my portfolio...

If you aren't offended by images of nude human beings check out my websites: http://www.terrygates.com   http://www.nudespoetic.com

http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/101001/11/4ca629ed47d42.jpg
Feb 18 13 12:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TrianglePhoto
Posts: 577
Chicago, Illinois, US


I think operating a gallery of any sort is a challenge in the current economic environment.

Art nudes don't generally sell well, even in the best of times.

Like any small business, your chance of success will be dependent on whether you can find a group of buyers for the work you elect to represent. I doubt you'll get a lot of sales from random people walking in off the street.

Start networking, both online and offline.

Best of luck!
Feb 18 13 12:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sharfman Photography
Posts: 213
Purcell, Oklahoma, US


It depends on what you mean by survive.  If you want to make a good living selling art nudes, it is unlikely. If you examine the contemporary (well-known) folks who are selling art nudes for real money (e.g. Demarchelier, Jonvelle, Bitesnich, Ritts etc.) they each have other sources of main income.  I have hung art nudes in galleries both SF and Taos but only sold a few things.  Now your work is better than mine and your male work is pretty edgy so perhaps there is a niche market that might like it.  Please note that both Verve and Photo-Eye in Santa Fe have current nude exhibits but neither one has ever expressed interest in my work.
Feb 18 13 12:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 36,421
Columbus, Ohio, US


Frankly, given your location I'm kinda surprised at your difficulty.
Feb 18 13 12:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,323
Orlando, Florida, US


Are you sure that it's the lack of courage that's getting you turned away from these galleries?

Maybe they just don't see a market for your works. And a gallery is not going to give up the space if they don't see value in it.  While you may have 50 years experience creating this art, they likely have 50 years experience selling it.
Feb 18 13 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24,315
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
Are you sure that it's the lack of courage that's getting you turned away from these galleries?

Maybe they just don't see a market for your works. And a gallery is not going to give up the space if they don't see value in it.  While you may have 50 years experience creating this art, they likely have 50 years experience selling it.

my thoughts exactly...or perhaps they just didn't like it..

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png

Feb 18 13 12:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Terrell Gates
Posts: 1,042
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:

my thoughts exactly...or perhaps they just didn't like it..

No doubt... But I never get a "Just don't like it," reaction...

Feb 18 13 02:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Terrell Gates
Posts: 1,042
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


Good Egg Productions wrote:
Are you sure that it's the lack of courage that's getting you turned away from these galleries?

Maybe they just don't see a market for your works. And a gallery is not going to give up the space if they don't see value in it.  While you may have 50 years experience creating this art, they likely have 50 years experience selling it.

I know you're right... I doubt though that they have 50 years selling it... Nudes are not flying off the walls in any case... Thanks for your comment...

Feb 18 13 02:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,577
Salinas, California, US


Terrell Gates wrote:

I know you're right... I doubt though that they have 50 years selling it... Nudes are not flying off the walls in any case... Thanks for your comment...

Getting any gallery to show your work is not easy.   I think it's a combination of your content AND the economy.  So even with a showing in an art gallery, the economic results may not meet expectations.  Have you been marketing towards getting commissions to shoot nudes?

Feb 18 13 02:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Terrell Gates
Posts: 1,042
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:

Getting any gallery to show your work is not easy.   I think it's a combination of your content AND the economy.  So even with a showing in an art gallery, the economic results may not meet expectations.  Have you been marketing towards getting commissions to shoot nudes?

You are soooo right!  I know the prospects are puny at best... Maybe I shuould just pack it in... I have enough work to fill the Whitney Museum twice over and feel I should at least show them once if I have to rent a tent...

Feb 18 13 04:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,456
Los Angeles, California, US


Here's what the problem is with selling nude images in a gallery.

I've been selling fine art images of nudes for many years and this is what I have learned from the owners of galleries that refused to hang my images:

The audience for fine art nudes (especially anything erotic) is extremely small and the financial benefits do not outweigh the deficits for a gallery that makes it's living on the sales revenue it brings in each month.

Most galleries won't put nudes on the walls for fear of offending people, or having them visible to children from the street (which may bring legal consequences).

The majority of people will not buy artwork or photographs of nudes because they cannot hang them in their homes, due to children, neighbors, relatives, church folks, etc.. Therefore, the market is really limited and not profitable.

The biggest market for nudes is the male gay audience, because for the most part children, PTA, church groups and other more conservative elements of society will not likely be in their homes to criticize them for the art they own.

It's a shame this is the state of affairs in this country at this time . . . . but that's the way it is.

KM
Feb 18 13 04:54 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Strange
Posts: 127
Tampa, Florida, US


I'd say "Go for it!"
Make some big prints for impact...BIG as in 40x60 big.
Large works almost "force" people to stop and look and you can ask a premium for them.
Have a soft opening and invite all your models,their friends,some local media,some ultra-conservatives...serve some wine...
Let people make up their own minds and see what happens.
The people who control an artists destiny are typically very clicky,often
bitchy,judgmental and sometimes overconfident about their knowledge!
But,if your work hits a chord with the right peeps...
You won't know if you don't try IMHO.
Feb 18 13 05:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Schlake
Posts: 2,343
Socorro, New Mexico, US


Given what I know of Santa Fe, I'd say you are in for a huge fight.  They ostracize any artist who doesn't toe the line on Santa Fe appropriate art.  I have every reason to believe the government itself will rally against you.

I, for one, hope you do this.  Santa Fe sucks, and the art crowd there is a hateful clique.
Feb 18 13 05:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Broughton
Posts: 2,220
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


i so wish this was in critique.
Feb 18 13 07:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Markcomp
Posts: 40,517
Royal Oak, Michigan, US


Michael Broughton wrote:
i so wish this was in critique.

I agree.  I would feel much more comfortable discussing the overall issue.

Feb 18 13 08:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,144
New York, New York, US


Terrell Gates wrote:

No doubt... But I never get a "Just don't like it," reaction...

If a collector bought the photo you posted, or a nude version, on a wall in their home, the first thing someone would say when they saw it is "Who's that?"

That's a portrait and unless the subject is someone that people would be proud to have on the wall for who they are (celebrity) it doesn't make sense.

People probably don't have a negative reaction to the photography, they just know that it's not the type of image that will sell.

If you wait 50-100 years, when people will tell from looking that it's an old photo and the person has it on the wall for the artistic properties only and not the portrait properties, then you may have a better chance at selling some work.

A figure nude, especially one with no face, makes it clear that the photo is not about who the person is, it's simply about shapes and being something interesting to look at. In a strangely literal sense, you won't sell a nude photo with a face in an art gallery.

The exception is buying work by a known photographer. "Who's that?" "It's one of Ryan McGinley's models. He shot the photo." "Wow, you have a McGinley? I'm impressed."

Otherwise it's just "Nice photo, but why do you have a total stranger on the wall?"

Feb 19 13 12:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kent Art Photography
Posts: 2,740
Ashford, England, United Kingdom


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
...The biggest market for nudes is the male gay audience, because for the most part children, PTA, church groups and other more conservative elements of society will not likely be in their homes to criticize them for the art they own.

It's a shame this is the state of affairs in this country at this time . . . . but that's the way it is.

KM

Here in Europe, things are better, but what Mr Marcus says is still applicable.  My first exhibition was "downstairs", i.e. in the basement of a gallery, while the female nudes were on the ground floor.

If I were you, I would not go down the gallery route, I would consider other outlets for my work.  I used to sell work on ebay, for example.

Feb 19 13 12:33 am  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 21,141
New York, New York, US


I have strong working relationships with two galleries and I will echo both what Ken has said as well as what MC has said, they are both spot on.

Unless the person in the photo is famous or was shot by a famous photographer, people don't put portraits of people they don't know on their walls.  Are there exceptions, sure.  Would I as an artist do it?  You bet.  But there aren't enough of us to make up a market. 

Look at Cindy Sherman's work.  It reached a level of high critical acclaim (including becoming part of permanent collections in several museums) before she started selling to a larger audience.  And this is without the added hassle of her subject's being nude. Add in nudity and you have all the issues Ken raises - and that's for female nudity.  Male nudes? For most galleries, that market is so incredibly small (from a gallery perspective) as to be non-existent. 

MM seems to have a collective consensus of what fine art photography is, however, that is not really proven out when you look at what is not only being hung, but what is selling in the galleries that matter or at auction.  If you want to sell, you need to understand the market.  Now, if you simply want a vanity gallery to display your work, and if some sells it sells, that's cool.  If you include the works of other like-minded artists and help give them some exposure, even better.  But don't expect to change the attitudes discussed above, because it's not going to happen.
Feb 19 13 12:39 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Sandra Vixen
Posts: 945
Los Angeles, California, US


"Nude" of course is in super-high demand, it's an over-sexualized society.

Real nude, which takes genuine artistic passion and a lot of hard work, is hard to come by.

I'm sure you will get a high audience at first, most likely the wrong kind, then after many years, you may find a genuine few to call an audience.
Feb 19 13 01:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Neil Snape
Posts: 9,456
Paris, Île-de-France, France


You know I have said I like what you do.

Yet I'm not a buyer.

I would love to see your images printed big and in a gallery.

What Ken and MC then Paramour.

I didn't have to hear that from anyone else than my wife> who would put a picture of a naked * girl on their wall of an unknown person?   

My realisation was when looking through galleries and noticing that all the pictures that sell are of celebrities, and or celeb nudes. Those who have some can carry over to models and nudes, yet the prices and possibly sales for those are likely slim. Nothing to do with the quality of imagery.

The only thing to add that maybe wasn't is: when you present to a gallery, they want to know what base you're bringing. IF you had the following of Mapplethorpe, you'd be in. Even if you're associated with a name for example I was almost with Herb Ritts's last agent, which would have at least opened doors for seeing people.

We are in the the same boat more or less.
I shot a series of mirrors and reflections pictures, and some cast shadows nudes.
I don't have a following, I don't have much of a gallery history, I don't shoot celebrities ( although I'd like to). I did shoot classic style, not erotic, and usually have faces obscured.

What are the real chances of success finding a gallery?

You guess.
Feb 19 13 01:40 am  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 21,141
New York, New York, US


Neil Snape wrote:
I didn't have to hear that from anyone else than my wife> who would put a picture of a naked * girl on their wall of an unknown person?

I have one nude hanging in my home.  It is a print of Dean Johnson shot by Paolo Roversi.  The reaction to it (by non artists) is always the same:

"Who's that?  Wait...  Is that Dean Johnson?"

"Yes it is"

"You didn't shoot that, did you"

*Laughing* "No, I wish.  That's one of my favorite photographers, a man by the name of Paolo Roversi"

"It's beautiful.  At first I was like, why do you have a photograph of a naked woman in your dining room, lol, but now I see it".

Feb 19 13 02:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jirrupin
Posts: 1,742
Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia


Paramour Productions wrote:
Unless the person in the photo is famous or was shot by a famous photographer, people don't put portraits of people they don't know on their walls.  Are there exceptions, sure.  Would I as an artist do it?  You bet.  But there aren't enough of us to make up a market.

i don't disagree that the market for this is small, and a lot of people don't want to hang portraits with faces of unknown people. BUT some people do, to make it work  it comes down to presentation, less likely to be a stand alone feature in the entrance foyer of someones house, more likely to be hung in a cluster of similar themed pieces from a gallery style hanging system in a den or formal living area of the house.

Importantly you can also make it easier for people to present these pieces in their homes by making the context clearer to anyone that visits their house - you do this by adding a signature, edition number, and title to the piece - if you're selling the framed or matted the matboard is ideal

Feb 19 13 03:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Bots
Posts: 5,689
Kingston, Ontario, Canada


As Ken said above.
I once talked with gallery owners from Casper, WY.
They would get tourist overflow from Yellowstone all the time.
They had put on display an image that I would not even consider was controversial and got grief from locals and visitors alike.
Feb 19 13 04:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Strange
Posts: 127
Tampa, Florida, US


http://ikono.org/2012/10/nude-men-from- … in-vienna/

Check out what's happening in Europe!!!
Feb 19 13 05:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SME
Posts: 20,915
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


I have found that, at least for me, the best audience by far is the alternative, body modified crowd.  Every time I exhibit in conjunction with, say, a tattoo shop, or a piercing shop, I have a great opening night.  As Ken said above, most regular people aren't comfortable purchasing and hanging figure work where those who might judge them will see it.  Somebody who is covered with tattoos has kind of already committed to being who they are regardless of what people think, so something as trivial as figure photography on their wall is less likely to be traumatic.

Also look overseas.  Europe likes my work WAY better than America.

Way.

Edited to add one last thought: keep an eye out for calls for art for nude shows.  I believe Seattle Erotic Art Festival's call for art is open now.  Some of those bigger shows also have print stores associated with them, and I know quite a few artists who sell well there.

Hope that helps!

Sita
Feb 19 13 05:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Stanley L Moore
Posts: 1,599
Houston, Texas, US


As a photographer who loves nude work unless its porn the market is small. You might look ip Adonis Art Gallery. In London. They cater to the gay market. But they do not show up a whole lot of photography.
Feb 19 13 07:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Terrell Gates
Posts: 1,042
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Here's what the problem is with selling nude images in a gallery.

I've been selling fine art images of nudes for many years and this is what I have learned from the owners of galleries that refused to hang my images:

The audience for fine art nudes (especially anything erotic) is extremely small and the financial benefits do not outweigh the deficits for a gallery that makes it's living on the sales revenue it brings in each month.

Most galleries won't put nudes on the walls for fear of offending people, or having them visible to children from the street (which may bring legal consequences).

The majority of people will not buy artwork or photographs of nudes because they cannot hang them in their homes, due to children, neighbors, relatives, church folks, etc.. Therefore, the market is really limited and not profitable.

The biggest market for nudes is the male gay audience, because for the most part children, PTA, church groups and other more conservative elements of society will not likely be in their homes to criticize them for the art they own.

It's a shame this is the state of affairs in this country at this time . . . . but that's the way it is.

KM

I wish you were wrong... But regrettably you are right...  I wish my interests were landscapes, cowboys and Indians... I might have a better chance here in Santa Fe...  Thanks for your comment...

Feb 19 13 09:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Terrell Gates
Posts: 1,042
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


Schlake wrote:
Given what I know of Santa Fe, I'd say you are in for a huge fight.  They ostracize any artist who doesn't toe the line on Santa Fe appropriate art.  I have every reason to believe the government itself will rally against you.

I, for one, hope you do this.  Santa Fe sucks, and the art crowd there is a hateful clique.

I know what you mean.... Santa Fe SUCKS big time...

Feb 19 13 09:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Terrell Gates
Posts: 1,042
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


I thank you all so much for your thoughtful, and yes, very helpful replies.

Terry Gates
www.terrygates.com
www.nudespoetic.com
Feb 19 13 09:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
afplcc
Posts: 5,991
Fairfax, Virginia, US


I'm not a gallery owner nor do I play one on TV.  That caveat noted....

1.  Most galleries are going to be motivated by:  what sells.  Unless it's a big name gallery (ala National Gallery of Art, etc. who's purpose is to exhibit), most privately owned galleries are seeking to sell art.  So if the genre doesn't typically sell (such as art nudes) then they won't tend to exhibit it.

2.  As others have mentioned, very few make money solely off of art nudes.  For most, it's either a hobby or they have other revenue sources.  And related to that, most of the artists I've known (not just photographers) don't make money off of gallery sales.  They get work commissioned (such as a painting or sculpture for a park or a photo series).  So if you're thinking of gallery access as a way to make money, I think that's unlikely.

3.  Finally, I won't claim to understand gallery markets or especially your neck of the woods.  But I think the problem with a gallery that focuses solely on art nudes is like have a sex ad store front...people will definitely go in there.  But it will be furtive and a bit quick (b/c they don't want neighbors to see them doing so).  Your best bet would be a gallery with a mix of themes.  A wing or room with art nudes.  A wing or room of abstracts.  A wing or room with landscapes.

Ed
Feb 20 13 06:46 am  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 21,141
New York, New York, US


afplcc wrote:
I'm not a gallery owner nor do I play one on TV.  That caveat noted....

1.  Most galleries are going to be motivated by:  what sells.  Unless it's a big name gallery (ala National Gallery of Art, etc. who's purpose is to exhibit), most privately owned galleries are seeking to sell art.  So if the genre doesn't typically sell (such as art nudes) then they won't tend to exhibit it.

2.  As others have mentioned, very few make money solely off of art nudes.  For most, it's either a hobby or they have other revenue sources.  And related to that, most of the artists I've known (not just photographers) don't make money off of gallery sales.  They get work commissioned (such as a painting or sculpture for a park or a photo series).  So if you're thinking of gallery access as a way to make money, I think that's unlikely.

3.  Finally, I won't claim to understand gallery markets or especially your neck of the woods.  But I think the problem with a gallery that focuses solely on art nudes is like have a sex ad store front...people will definitely go in there.  But it will be furtive and a bit quick (b/c they don't want neighbors to see them doing so).  Your best bet would be a gallery with a mix of themes.  A wing or room with art nudes.  A wing or room of abstracts.  A wing or room with landscapes.

Ed

I make about 20-30% of my photography income from gallery sales.  They handle not only individual sales, but institutional sales as well (examples include upscale restaurants, hotels and large corporations that collect artwork for their own gallery space).  It's not a living (compared to commercial work) but it isn't a pittance either.  I know more than a few artists who do live on gallery sales alone, however it is a frugal existence.  For a few it is very, very lucrative.  That is what I work towards.

It is important to understand that the art world is also a business and, while no one would suggest an artist sell out his or her soul to create something sale-able, market considerations do need to be considered if you wish to produce work that galleries will sell.

I see thread after thread on this site of "fine art photography" and "fine art nudes", however the work presented is by no means a reflection of what is currently selling as art photography, either at galleries or at auction, what is by and large being collected as art photography or even what is being considered as art photography in the current landscape.  That landscape is changing somewhat (which I'm happy for as it benefits my styles), however it is like turning an aircraft carrier...

I recommend those interested to follow Art News (Bloomberg is a great source as are others) and understand not only the creative side of art, but the business side as well.

If you can get your hands on a copy of The Mona Lisa Curse, it is well worth a watch.

Feb 20 13 08:19 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,771
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


Schlake wrote:
, and the art crowd there is a hateful clique.

Isn't that kind of kind of redundant, no matter where "there" is?

Feb 20 13 08:28 am  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
MainePaintah
Posts: 1,713
Saco, Maine, US


I have been an artist my whole life.

I have been in many galleries AND had my own gallery for a few years. Here is my opinion!

This is what sells in galleries in the ORDER that they sell:

Landscapes
Seascapes
Still Life
Genre
female nudes
male nudes

The only place I can see your work selling is either Providence, Ogunquit, Maine, or maybe San Frisco, although I really don't know the market there.

I have more to say, but we are not in the Critique section.

One big question for you. Are you planning on having your gallery a "vanity" gallery, meaning just your artwork, or are you planning on having other artists too.

Message me if you would like to learn more about having a gallery.
Feb 20 13 08:54 am  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 6,073
New York, New York, US


Have you given any thought to the online "galleries" such as Red Bubble or Deviant Art?  They range anywhere from full-service operations that will produce the work in any size/framing the customer wants and handle the billing, shipping and disbursement of your markeup, to simple posting services that will do no more than give you a place to show your work and allow the potential buyer to communicate with you.

Strikes me as the better way to go since if you do have access to people who want to buy your work you can simply refer them--makes it easier for everyone.
Feb 20 13 09:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MC Photo
Posts: 4,144
New York, New York, US


Maybe a better approach would be to have a gallery show where the goal is to sell books of the work being shown.
Feb 20 13 10:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Terrell Gates
Posts: 1,042
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


Jay Strange wrote:
http://ikono.org/2012/10/nude-men-from- … in-vienna/

Check out what's happening in Europe!!!

Thanks for the link.... Maybe I should head for Europe...

Feb 20 13 10:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Terrell Gates
Posts: 1,042
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US


MC Photo wrote:
Maybe a better approach would be to have a gallery show where the goal is to sell books of the work being shown.

Good idea.... Yes....That is a feature of the proposed gallery... Thank you...

Feb 20 13 11:08 am  Link  Quote 
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Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 21,141
New York, New York, US


MC Photo wrote:
Maybe a better approach would be to have a gallery show where the goal is to sell books of the work being shown.

I would agree with this.

Feb 20 13 11:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Silver Mirage
Posts: 1,561
Plainview, Texas, US


Thanks, Terrell, for a most interesting thread. And thanks to those who have contributed.

My first thought on reading your post was the old line about boats: "A hole in the water into which you throw money."

My only success - very limited success - selling nude prints as art was through a collector bookstore that also kept a small selection of erotica in a back room. What economic success I've had with nudes has mostly been private commissions, and those have become rare now that everybody and his cousin are 'digital artists'.

I have had the thought at times of opening combined studio and gallery, doing portraits (with and without clothes) while showing some of my own and others work as well. But the prospects of actually making any money seem slim and I'm not in a position to take the financial risk.

If your goal is to get your work out where people can see it and you can afford the financial risk I'd say give it some sort of try. A while back I looked at rental space in Santa Fe and found some interesting yet affordable space. If I didn't have family obligations holding me in Texas I'd be very interested.

And if you do it, be sure to let me know. I'll try to make it over and check it out.
Feb 20 13 12:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 2,490
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


Good Egg Productions wrote:
Are you sure that it's the lack of courage that's getting you turned away from these galleries?

Maybe they just don't see a market for your works. And a gallery is not going to give up the space if they don't see value in it.  While you may have 50 years experience creating this art, they likely have 50 years experience selling it.

That was my initial reaction, but then I looked at your portfolio.

I would think that what you produce is eminently saleable, but you need to get to the right market.

I know much of the US is very conservative, so maybe you are trying to work the wrong town?

I would try to tap the cafe society in a more liberal part of the country.  San Francisco perhaps?  target the gay market?  If not art galleries, maybe coffee shops (selling on consignment)?

Feb 20 13 03:36 pm  Link  Quote 
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