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123last
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,800
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


I'm not one of those photographers who communicates in code, assumes model can read my mind, and expects everything to fall into my lap.  I'm meticulous and thorough in project planning and logistical arrangements, and I have an extremely low flake rate compared to the majority if you believe the complaints on here.  However every single flake I've ever had has been an MM model.  Why is it so much more likely that someone who signs up on a portfolio site and solicits modeling work will fail to follow through than it is that someone who responds to an ad on a university bulletin board, or someone who I ask on facebook or myspace, or someone who I hand a business card and ask to contact me if they're interested, or someone who is referred by a friend, or someone who sees my website and inquires about modeling opportunities, will fail to follow through?  And people on MM make jokes about facebook and myspace wannabe models.

Why is it so much harder on MM than anywhere else to find a reliable model?  What's your theory?
Feb 24 13 08:00 am  Link  Quote 
Model
angel emily
Posts: 1,020
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Why do YOU think it is?

It's interests me that you say you're meticulous about planning your shoots, and I assume also in selecting your models.  I assume also you make an effort and set a standard for good communication - making sure model knows day, time and location, and what to bring, and you have traded numbers.

Serious models on here don't flake, and there are some serious models on MM.   That said, I think many models on here aren't serious about being a model -- but certainly a meticulous planning system would weed them out. 

A number of photographers on here I know can count on one hand the number of flakes they've had in their entire career, and work almost exclusively with models they find on MM.  Hopefully they can chime in.
Feb 24 13 08:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Roy Hobbs
Posts: 31
Trumbull, Connecticut, US


Maybe it has a tendency to be tied to location. I live in CT and have a choice of models from MA, NY, RI, VT, NH, NJ as well as CT. PLus traveling models have a tendency to visit the Norteast on a regular basis.

MM is a good tool for me...I've had a very high success rate with the models on here!

Good luck!
Hobbs
Feb 24 13 08:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,800
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


EMILY  C wrote:
Why do YOU think it is?

It's interests me that you say you're meticulous about planning your shoots, and I assume also in selecting your models.  I assume also you make an effort and set a standard for good communication - making sure model knows day, time and location, and what to bring, and you have traded numbers.

Serious models on here don't flake.   I think many models on here aren't serious about being a model -- but certainly a meticulous planning system would weed them out.  A number of photographers on here I know can count on one hand the number of flakes they've had in their entire career.  Hopefully they can chime in.

Don't get defensive.  I did not suggest that all or most MM models flake.  What I did say is that the likelihood of finding a flake appears so much greater on MM that even photographers, like me, who never have flakes from elsewhere are sure to find them here. 

I'm one of those who can count on one hand the number of flakes I've had in my entire career, all the way back to the mid-1980s.  I pointed that out in my post.  My question is why communication and planning practices that got successful results for nearly 30 years, and continue to do so, from all sorts of venues don't work on MM.

Feb 24 13 08:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LA StarShooter
Posts: 1,852
Los Angeles, California, US


Roy Hobbs wrote:
Maybe it has a tendency to be tied to location. I live in CT and have a choice of models from MA, NY, RI, VT, NH, NJ as well as CT. PLus traveling models have a tendency to visit the Norteast on a regular basis.

MM is a good tool for me...I've had a very high success rate with the models on here!

Good luck!
Hobbs

I don't have flakes because model selection involves a conversation on the phone and their commitment. The shoot becomes a priority to them and it is to achieve something important to them. Their ambition is aroused. I also now just look for certain looks: she must be tall and have a fighting chance of making it as a model in commercial/fashion.

Being selective and creating excitement for the shoot is something that has led to my book being almost finished. My next shoot may wrap it up.

Feb 24 13 08:21 am  Link  Quote 
Model
angel emily
Posts: 1,020
Boston, Massachusetts, US


BTHPhoto wrote:
Don't get defensive.  I did not suggest that all or most MM models flake.  What I did say is that the likelihood of finding a flake appears so much greater on MM that even photographers, like me, who never have flakes from elsewhere are sure to find them here. 

I'm one of those who can count on one hand the number of flakes I've had in my entire career, all the way back to the mid-1980s.  I pointed that out in my post.  My question is why communication and planning practices that got successful results for nearly 30 years, and continue to do so, from all sorts of venues don't work on MM.

It doesn't shock me that the flakes come from MM, because literally anyone can set up a model account and call themselves a "model" and then if they flake, they aren't going to get called out the forums, they're not going to receive a public rating, they aren't going to be kicked off the site -- they might make someone's "do not recommend" list and be talked about in social circles and if asked for references, but that doesn't bother them because they were never actually in this to begin with.   

Simply put, if the standards were set higher for model accounts to be approved by gate-keepers, the flake rate MIGHT go down because quality would be higher.   But nearly everyone gets approved, so it's up to the rest of us to weed through the trash.

Feb 24 13 08:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Vintagevista
Posts: 10,987
Sun City, California, US


EMILY  C wrote:
Simply put, if the standards were set higher for model accounts to be approved by gate-keepers, the flake rate MIGHT go down because quality would be higher.  But nearly everyone gets approved, so it's up to the rest of us to weed through the trash.

You might then be pretty surprised at how many are turned away.

I've done 16,000 applicants and my refusal rate hovers around 37-40% 

As to the OP - I have not tried everybody else - so my experience is limited about MM being the worst.  But, my flake rate here is about what I had in the old days of omp - and frankly it is pretty low anyway.  (It's been a year or so since my last true flake)

I shot yesterday with a brand new model - she was late in traffic - called me to let me know - we had a lovely shoot and everyone left happy.

Feb 24 13 08:27 am  Link  Quote 
Model
angel emily
Posts: 1,020
Boston, Massachusetts, US


Vintagevista wrote:

You might then be pretty surprised at how many are turned away.

I used to be a gate keeper. 

I'm shocked at how many I would decline now make it through.

Feb 24 13 08:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J Kegley Photographer
Posts: 489
Renton, Washington, US


I have used MM for a number of years now and have had one flake.  Had many more from other sources.  I would say my success rate is above 98%.
Feb 24 13 08:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RKD Photographic
Posts: 3,265
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany


EMILY  C wrote:

It doesn't shock me that the flakes come from MM, because literally anyone can set up a model account and call themselves a "model" and then if they flake, they aren't going to get called out the forums, they're not going to receive a public rating, they aren't going to be kicked off the site -- they might make someone's "do not recommend" list and be talked about in social circles and if asked for references, but that doesn't bother them because they were never actually in this to begin with.   

Simply put, if the standards were set higher for model accounts to be approved by gate-keepers, the flake rate MIGHT go down because quality would be higher.   But nearly everyone gets approved, so it's up to the rest of us to weed through the trash.

Very good.

The German site I use does allow for rating models (and for models to rate photographers). It also gives a tally of shoots done (with other forum members) and allows feedback after the shoot. Potential 'bookers' can see at a glance the number of shoots and the rating and feedback for those shoots.

While there's still some 'flakeage' there - esp. with novice models, there seems to be a much lower incidence than on here.

Feb 24 13 08:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,715
Salinas, California, US


It's because llamamayhem has an "easy" button!   lol


Seriously, I think this is a waste of question.  We all have different experiences depending on way too many variables.  My "flake rate" is nearly nonexistent.   I have not noticed llamas coming from here being more prone to showing up or not showing up than any other place I've done casting for llamas, be it through Internet websites, passing flyer advertising in newspapers, or physically passing my card to people I talk with.  If anything, most people I pass a card or flyer to will never call me.  Casting calls on here and Craigslist have brought me the majority of llamas that I work with, and I've had maybe 5 flakes in 12 years?   Not a problem.
Feb 24 13 08:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,800
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


EMILY  C wrote:

It doesn't shock me that the flakes come from MM, because literally anyone can set up a model account and call themselves a "model" and then if they flake, they aren't going to get called out the forums, they're not going to receive a public rating, they aren't going to be kicked off the site -- they might make someone's "do not recommend" list and be talked about in social circles and if asked for references, but that doesn't bother them because they were never actually in this to begin with.   

Simply put, if the standards were set higher for model accounts to be approved by gate-keepers, the flake rate MIGHT go down because quality would be higher.   But nearly everyone gets approved, so it's up to the rest of us to weed through the trash.

I find that explanation hard to swallow.  The implication of accepting it is that I never encounter any of what you call "the trash" through any other venue.  While it would be really convenient if there was some sort of magnet that sucked up all the irresponsible people in the world and kept anyone from encountering them anywhere else, the idea is just too good to be true.

Feb 24 13 08:32 am  Link  Quote 
Model
angel emily
Posts: 1,020
Boston, Massachusetts, US


BTHPhoto wrote:
I find that explanation hard to swallow.  The implication of accepting it is that I never encounter any of what you call "the trash" through any other venue.  While it would be really convenient if there was some sort of magnet that sucked up all the irresponsible people in the world and kept anyone from encountering them anywhere else, the idea is just too good to be true.

What other 'venues' are you using?

Someone who decides they want to be a model might be given the advice to "start an account on MM".   They might not be inclined to join other sites where more serious-types might -- and certainly agencies wouldn't take them unless they fit certain criteria.

Feb 24 13 08:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,715
Salinas, California, US


It's not fair to pick on just the models when photographers or any human being for that matter could flake or be late.  There is no way to prevent it from ever happening, but it is possible to reduce the chances of a model flaking or being late.  It is an extremely rare occurrence for me that a model flakes on me, but I would have back up plans in anticipation of it happening.  In fact, I try to plan for the worst, and hope for the best.  Here are some things I do that seem to help;

(1) Get the people invested in the shoot.  If money is being exchanged, she or he is more likely to show up on time!  It's a serious loss if you show up late to court or the hospital.  So if "serious loss" of money, freedom or life is involved, we show up!  It's not only money that can be exchanged, but in a trade situation the images I shoot should hopefully be worth while to the model. 

(2) Be sure you have exchanged cell phone numbers AND that directions are CLEAR.  I have an unlimited talk or text plan that allows long distance too so I don't care if I talk to someone while giving them directions.  I welcome the communication, so it does not bother me for people to call me anytime and as often as needed.  Communication is important!

(3) Have alternative plans or things to do available to you so that you are not bored (which contributes to bad moods.)  I like to have several people around so that I can put someone in right away to check lighting, warm up, etc. ... before the model gets there.  Then when the model arrives, they jump in!  It works that way in Hollywood!  If you can find something else to occupy your time, you'll feel better.

(4) Car pool or make arrangements for transportation.  This is a good thing to do, especially when it's critical to have everyone there about the same time.  Traffic becomes less of an "poor" excuse when we are together in it!  I also have noticed that models who have a driver (or an escort, or assistant riding) do tend to arrive on time more often.  It's nice to have someone helping with maps and directions.  I'll even be the driver if necessary!

(5) Use contracts or releases.  Get it in writing and ready to be signed before shooting. Don't depend on word of mouth!  If things are stated in writing, then issues can be resolved much easier.  Minor differences become major if you don't do this. 

Keeping in mind that I do mostly stock, website content and editorial, there are times I pay models, but there are many times that I do "TFP."   For those who do "TFP" and complain ... all I can say is what does the photographer and model have to lose?  It's part of the risk you take in doing "TFP" ... if it is something that absolutely must get done, then it's better to pay the models.  Often times I call back the same models I've shot in trade to hire them for paid shoots.
Feb 24 13 08:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,800
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:
It's because Modelmayhem has an "easy" button!   lol


Seriously, I think this is a waste of question.  We all have different experiences depending on way too many variables.  My "flake rate" is nearly nonexistent.   I have not noticed models coming from here being more prone to showing up or not showing up than any other place I've done casting for models, be it through Internet websites, passing flyer advertising in newspapers, or physically passing my card to people I talk with.  If anything, most people I pass a card or flyer to will never call me.  Casting calls on here and Craigslist have brought me the majority of models that I work with, and I've had maybe 5 flakes in 12 years?   Not a problem.

That makes your flake rate (.416/year) almost twice as high as mine (.259/year).

Feb 24 13 08:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mike Adams Photos
Posts: 1,217
Cleveland, Ohio, US


EMILY  C wrote:
It doesn't shock me that the flakes come from MM, because literally anyone can set up a model account and call themselves a "model" and then if they flake, they aren't going to get called out the forums, they're not going to receive a public rating, they aren't going to be kicked off the site -- they might make someone's "do not recommend" list and be talked about in social circles and if asked for references, but that doesn't bother them because they were never actually in this to begin with.

+1, really that simple

Feb 24 13 08:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


Do you really have a better response/conversion rate with business cards than MM?

Years ago I would introduce myself cold and hand out business cards and maybe 1 out of 20 ever responded back and 1 out of every 50 actually resulted in a completed shoot.

MM has a much higher response/conversion rate than business cards ever had...for me.
Feb 24 13 08:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,549
Salem, Oregon, US


i think it's because they have nothing to lose. there's no particular penalty for flaking other than maybe losing out on a few gigs in that photographer's circle of friends. some of the models say "yes" very casually and flake just as casually. the trick is to find the ones who take it seriously either because they need the money or they take some pride in being professional. even if i'm not feeling well the day of the wedding i need to bring it anyway and do my job as the photographer. my clients deserve nothing less.
Feb 24 13 08:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,800
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:
It's not fair to pick on just the models when photographers or any human being for that matter could flake or be late.  There is no way to prevent it from ever happening, but it is possible to reduce the chances of a model flaking or being late.  It is an extremely rare occurrence for me that a model flakes on me, but I would have back up plans in anticipation of it happening.  In fact, I try to plan for the worst, and hope for the best.  Here are some things I do that seem to help;

(1) Get the people invested in the shoot.  If money is being exchanged, she or he is more likely to show up on time!  It's a serious loss if you show up late to court or the hospital.  So if "serious loss" of money, freedom or life is involved, we show up!  It's not only money that can be exchanged, but in a trade situation the images I shoot should hopefully be worth while to the model. 

(2) Be sure you have exchanged cell phone numbers AND that directions are CLEAR.  I have an unlimited talk or text plan that allows long distance too so I don't care if I talk to someone while giving them directions.  I welcome the communication, so it does not bother me for people to call me anytime and as often as needed.  Communication is important!

(3) Have alternative plans or things to do available to you so that you are not bored (which contributes to bad moods.)  I like to have several people around so that I can put someone in right away to check lighting, warm up, etc. ... before the model gets there.  Then when the model arrives, they jump in!  It works that way in Hollywood!  If you can find something else to occupy your time, you'll feel better.

(4) Car pool or make arrangements for transportation.  This is a good thing to do, especially when it's critical to have everyone there about the same time.  Traffic becomes less of an "poor" excuse when we are together in it!  I also have noticed that models who have a driver (or an llama herder, or assistant riding) do tend to arrive on time more often.  It's nice to have someone helping with maps and directions.  I'll even be the driver if necessary!

(5) Use contracts or releases.  Get it in writing and ready to be signed before shooting. Don't depend on word of mouth!  If things are stated in writing, then issues can be resolved much easier.  Minor differences become major if you don't do this. 

Keeping in mind that I do mostly stock, website content and editorial, there are times I pay models, but there are many times that I do "TFP."   For those who do "TFP" and complain ... all I can say is what does the photographer and model have to lose?  It's part of the risk you take in doing "TFP" ... if it is something that absolutely must get done, then it's better to pay the models.  Often times I call back the same models I've shot in trade to hire them for paid shoots.

I'm not picking on models, and I'm not looking for tips on how to avoid flakes.  While I agree with most of what you wrote, I think you missed the point of the question entirely.

Feb 24 13 08:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,715
Salinas, California, US


BTHPhoto wrote:

That makes your flake rate (.416/year) almost twice as high as mine (.259/year).

But how many models are you shooting?  Are these "hard" flakes or "soft?"  ... I've had only on "hard" ... a "No show/no call" that I have no idea what happened to her.  The rest are last minute cancels, as in calling hours or even minutes before the shoot.  At least I know they were alive and not going to show.  Those are what I call "soft" flakes as they didn't leave me hanging around wondering what happened.  So I do have an extremely low flake rate.  I've posted my tips above and in numerous places on this website as well as other places on the net.   wink

Feb 24 13 08:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,800
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:
Do you really have a better response/conversion rate with business cards than MM?

Years ago I would introduce myself cold and hand out business cards and maybe 1 out of 20 ever responded back and 1 out of every 50 actually resulted in a completed shoot.

MM has a much higher response/conversion rate than business cards ever had...for me.

That's not exactly what I said.  When I hand someone a business card, those who contact me and arrange a shoot show up for the shoot.  Every model who has ever arranged a shoot with me then not shown up has come from MM.

Feb 24 13 08:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,715
Salinas, California, US


BTHPhoto wrote:

I'm not picking on models, and I'm not looking for tips on how to avoid flakes.  While I agree with most of what you wrote, I think you missed the point of the question entirely.

No, that is something I post in EVERY thread related to flakes.  wink

Feb 24 13 08:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:

Those are all excellent points, but I'm assuming the process he uses is the same for all venues. That means the only variable is the source of the models.

Feb 24 13 08:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12,116
Tampa, Florida, US


BTHPhoto wrote:
That's not exactly what I said.  When I hand someone a business card, those who contact me and arrange a shoot show up for the shoot.  Every model who has ever arranged a shoot with me then not shown up has come from MM.

OK, I gotcha. So response rate isn't really part of the equation. We're only talking about converting that response to an actual shoot. (i.e. of those who DO respond...)

Feb 24 13 08:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,715
Salinas, California, US


Mostly it's about using a good balance of communication methods! 

Actually "talk" on the phone at least a couple of times before considering the shoot booked, and have one call be a confirmation call the night before the shoot.  Use messages and texting for making sure details are in writing.  If you can do so in advance of shooting, meeting in person can be helpful too.
Feb 24 13 08:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,715
Salinas, California, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:
Those are all excellent points, but I'm assuming the process he uses is the same for all venues. That means the only variable is the source of the models.

The majority of models I shoot with have a MM profile, a Facebook profile and also they watch Craigslist.  None of them are one trick ponies.  It's hard to say which venue was the one to bring them in.

with many models, I also exchange my MM, Facebook, email, phone number, and even sometimes my LinkedIn profile.   As we get closer to shooting, we are texting or talking on the phone with messages often times being the method of confirming the plans.  Every shoot and every model is different.

Feb 24 13 08:50 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,800
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


Patrick Walberg wrote:
Mostly it's about using a good balance of communication methods! 

Actually "talk" on the phone at least a couple of times before considering the shoot booked, and have one call be a confirmation call the night before the shoot.  Use messages and texting for making sure details are in writing.  If you can do so in advance of shooting, meeting in person can be helpful too.

I do all of that, and more, but you're still missing the point.  The point is, what I do that works extremely well when I arrange a shoot through other venues often doesn't work when I arrange a shoot through MM, and I'm interested in figuring out why.

Feb 24 13 08:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,800
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


Michael Pandolfo wrote:

Those are all excellent points, but I'm assuming the process he uses is the same for all venues. That means the only variable is the source of the models.

Exactly.

Feb 24 13 08:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 21,525
Portland, Oregon, US


...  Maybe you have bad breath?
...  Maybe you need an improved "model selection filter"?
...  Maybe because MM does not have much of a membership acceptance filter,
     and no, we don't want one.
...  Maybe you aren't offering sufficient compensation and/or incentive.
...  Maybe your references are bad-mouthing you.

Ah, I'm stopping myself.  We don't know, and I, for one, haven't shared your experience.
Feb 24 13 08:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 42,715
Salinas, California, US


BTHPhoto wrote:

I do all of that, and more, but you're still missing the point.  The point is, what I do that works extremely well when I arrange a shoot through other venues often doesn't work when I arrange a shoot through MM, and I'm interested in figuring out why.

I can't tell you why because that has not been my experience at all!  Sorry!  The one "stone cold flake" I had was someone brought to me through a another model.  I actually had shot with her before the event I had her booked for which was a car show, and she never showed.  However, I had a dozen models booked and more than enough showed up.  Members of Modelmayhem are no more and no less likely to show than any others.

Feb 24 13 08:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,549
Salem, Oregon, US


for me they are much more likely to show for a trade shoot if i've met them first. one model sold me my phone at costco. others we meet by loaning out our studio to other photographers. these girls are often on model mayhem but the key was being able to book the shoot in person, not over the internet.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Members of Modelmayhem are no more and no less likely to show than any others.

Feb 24 13 09:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Zack Zoll
Posts: 2,567
Glens Falls, New York, US


Emily is correct.  The fact that MM is free (though not entirely open) has a lot to do with why you get so many flakes.  Personally, I've never been flat-out stood up for a shoot, but I HAVE had people cancel on me the the night before (once because they didn't bother to check my profile, and didn't realize I was too far away for public transportation), and I've had several instances where the model called me about half an hour after the agreed meeting time to tell me that they would be there in another half an hour or so.

I've also had several instances where I called the model a few days before the shoot to make sure we were still on, and lo and behold they disappeared off the face of the Earth.  No responses, no nothing.  In each case I got everything set up at the studio, and then just stayed at home watching a movie or something.  I live close enough that I could be over there in a few minutes if they called to ask where I was, but I never got a call in those instances.

Anybody that has ever tried online dating can tell you that there would be a lot fewer flakes on MM if there was a monthly fee, even if it was only a dollar or so.  Back when I had time for dating (sigh, to be young again!), I found that I never had a match.com date cancel the night before, but it happened pretty regularly with free sites.  I doubt it was me, since I was lazy and just copy/pasted the same profile and pictures onto both sites smile
Feb 24 13 09:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,690
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


I've often posted the same casting call here on MM and on Craigslist.  More often than not, I'll get several replies from the CL casting and none here.  What's even more interesting is that sometimes MM models will reply to the CL casting, but not here.

I don't pretend to know all the reasons, but I think part of it is due to unrealistic expectations many new MM models have.  Many sign up on a whim (which costs them nothing) believing they will get great paid offers just for posting a few cell phone pics, believing that having a profile that says they are a model, makes them a pro model.

Look at some of the rate threads.  People often tell new models, they should charge $75/hour or more.   It's no wonder they have unrealistically high expectations.
Feb 24 13 09:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,549
Salem, Oregon, US


i posted the same casting here and on CL (for a TF shoot) and got zero responses here and 3 from CL. i wound up shooting with two of the ladies from CL, one of whom went on to join mayhem.

you may be right that the models are hoping to make money here, even without any experience. but to be fair i think some photographers pay for the girl, not the experience level. and people report flakes even when they are paying the mayhem model (although i've never had a paid mayhem model flake).

i let a well-respected, published photographer use our studio yesterday and he had a flake (the model was traveling with family and they wound up getting too far away to make it in time for the shoot).

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I've often posted the same casting call here on MM and on Craigslist.  More often than not, I'll get several replies from the CL casting and none here.  What's even more interesting is that sometimes MM models will reply to the CL casting, but not here.

Feb 24 13 09:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,490
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


Maybe it's the people/models the sites letting onto it.. I've noticed a lot more flakes since IB took over the site.
Feb 24 13 09:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Josue Pena
Posts: 595
Los Angeles, California, US


I havent found that problem, the shoots normally go as planned, and the ones cancelled are cancelled enough time in advance to find a new model, or to reschedule my crew, but been lucky on this one
Feb 24 13 09:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,800
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


Abbitt Photography wrote:
I've often posted the same casting call here on MM and on Craigslist.  More often than not, I'll get several replies from the CL casting and none here.  What's even more interesting is that sometimes MM models will reply to the CL casting, but not here.

I don't pretend to know all the reasons, but I think part of it is due to unrealistic expectations many new MM models have.  Many sign up on a whim (which costs them nothing) believing they will get great paid offers just for posting a few cell phone pics, believing that having a profile that says they are a model, makes them a pro model.

Look at some of the rate threads.  People often tell new models, they should charge $75/hour or more.   It's no wonder they have unrealistically high expectations.

That makes some sense to me.  Perhaps the models I book through other avenues are just thinking they're going to have some fun, not that they're going to get rich and famous for being pretty, so there's much less pressure and anxiety.  Of course, while I do pay models much of the time, no model is going to get rich and famous working with me. tongue

Feb 24 13 09:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,490
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


@Josue Pena; But none of your models looking at the credits on the images are of MM.
Feb 24 13 09:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fred Ackerman
Posts: 273
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US


EMILY  C wrote:
It doesn't shock me that the flakes come from MM, because literally anyone can set up a model account and call themselves a "model" and then if they flake, they aren't going to get called out the forums, they're not going to receive a public rating, they aren't going to be kicked off the site -- they might make someone's "do not recommend" list and be talked about in social circles and if asked for references, but that doesn't bother them because they were never actually in this to begin with.   

Simply put, if the standards were set higher for model accounts to be approved by gate-keepers, the flake rate MIGHT go down because quality would be higher.   But nearly everyone gets approved, so it's up to the rest of us to weed through the trash.

True! Since I plan 'test' shoots months in advance I've never had a no show. On the other hand for some reason I can't figure out, some "models" here fail to telephone/write to set up final preparations. So the 'flakes' show themselves pretty clearly.. When you browse the listings of "models" here you can see the large amount who just stop checking out the site. Serious people do respond and they create my best work.

Feb 24 13 09:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,493
San Diego, California, US


No barrier to entry.

Not held accountable to anyone/anything.

No repercussions.
Feb 24 13 09:50 am  Link  Quote 
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