Those are all also true of people who've agreed to a shoot after responding to ads on a bulletin board, contacting me through my web site, or contacting me after I hand them a business card. I know those are common complaints that some people have about MM, but they don't differentiate MM from many other venues that, at least for me, produce different results.
BTHPhoto wrote: Those are all also true of people who've agreed to a shoot after responding to ads on a bulletin board, contacting me through my web site, or contacting me after I hand them a business card. I know those are common complaints that some people have about MM, but they don't differentiate MM from many other venues that, at least for me, produce different results.
I stated this sentiment earlier, but I really do believe it --
Someone who is serious about modeling is going to be perceptive and receptive to other venues like this.
When this is how new models often find MM:
Girl A tells Girl B "You should be a model!! I am!! Just get on this site, MM, and you can be one too!"
EMILY C wrote: Someone who decides they want to be a model might be given the advice to "start an account on MM". They might not be inclined to join other sites where more serious-types might -- and certainly agencies wouldn't take them unless they fit certain criteria.
Patrick Walberg wrote: It's because Modelmayhem has an "easy" button!
Seriously, I think this is a waste of question. We all have different experiences depending on way too many variables. My "flake rate" is nearly nonexistent. I have not noticed models coming from here being more prone to showing up or not showing up than any other place I've done casting for models, be it through Internet websites, passing flyer advertising in newspapers, or physically passing my card to people I talk with. If anything, most people I pass a card or flyer to will never call me. Casting calls on here and Craigslist have brought me the majority of models that I work with, and I've had maybe 5 flakes in 12 years? Not a problem.
c_h_r_i_s wrote: @Josue Pena; But none of your models looking at the credits on the images are of MM.
yes, I have shoot a lot of models on MM and a lot of models out of MM, had to stop using credits because some of the models got stalkers blah blah blah.... not worth to deal with, so stop doing it,
BTHPhoto wrote: Those are all also true of people who've agreed to a shoot after responding to ads on a bulletin board, contacting me through my web site, or contacting me after I hand them a business card. I know those are common complaints that some people have about MM, but they don't differentiate MM from many other venues that, at least for me, produce different results.
With the added "plus" of being able to proclaim "I am a model" which the BBs and other venues don't really have.
ETA: I think Emily just sorta said the same thing.
My theory is, it's because you live in Alaska. It can't be easy to find reliable models up there when the pool is so small. I haven't had a single flake in my entire 5 1/2 years here on MM. But, I live in Pasadena, CA. Models are everywhere, and then some.
studio36uk
Posts: 20,241
Tavai, Sigave, Wallis and Futuna
"Interwebs models tend, more than actual living, breathing, walking and talking genuine models in the real world, to be self-delusional hubristic narcissist wannabes with grandiose egos and sense of self-worth, who somehow divine that if they label themselves as a "model" they are, as if by magic, transformed into one."
Eliza C
Posts: 7,869
Swansea, Wales, United Kingdom
One word:
REFERENCES.
If they don't have them you take a chance. There are all sorts on here and a lot of them are not serious. They just want to make out they are models to impress their friends etc. However you also have thousands of talented hard working professional models including agency models hosting ports here.
You just have to use your head. You may still get an odd flake if you check references but it will minimise it.
I'd like to see a two tier system on here where we are vetted by MM and they check our references so you dont have to.
New models then need to get references by being reliable to move up to that level.
Otherwise every time this happens the finger is pointed at unreliable flakey MM models, 'internet models' etc and that is not fair on the thousands of models working hard who'd never flake.
If it is happening a lot to the photographer they should ask themselves what do these flakes have in common? Are you choosing models who are clearly not professionals? Just because they are offering tf or because they look attractive? Come on. The last photographer asked me to answer this for them sent me four profiles. I asked why he picked them and each time ihe said ...'they had a really good look/potential'. It was true all of them were exceptionally beautiful girls. But despite professional photos not one of their ports had a professional pose in it and none of them had any credits. So he accepted that he'd taken a chance and they'd flopped. Do not take a chance if the shoot is important. Take a chance when it's a sunday afternoon and you will be bored. Limit tf to the same. If you have a client pay for a professional model. Go to an agency by all means if you have the budget but there are also thousands of models here who take it seriously and are professionals too that will be far less expensive.
We as models all have a nightmare photographer story or two too but we do not judge all photographers here by such experiences. And again to models I'd ask them to check photographer references if in doubt.
Patrick Walberg wrote: It's because Modelmayhem has an "easy" button!
Seriously, I think this is a waste of question. We all have different experiences depending on way too many variables. My "flake rate" is nearly nonexistent. I have not noticed models coming from here being more prone to showing up or not showing up than any other place I've done casting for models, be it through Internet websites, passing flyer advertising in newspapers, or physically passing my card to people I talk with. If anything, most people I pass a card or flyer to will never call me. Casting calls on here and Craigslist have brought me the majority of models that I work with, and I've had maybe 5 flakes in 12 years? Not a problem.
I was waiting on your comment, Patrick!
I agree, I have never arrived at a shoot with a no-show photographer. I think there are many ways of avoiding this here or anywhere else. Exchange contact info off the bat, keep in regular contact until the day of the shoot. The only times I've let photographers off the hook is if there is hardly any communication. (If I've sent them an email (not on MM) and have to wait days for a response, wishy washy on changing the day and time until the day before the shoot...or they are just clearly not professional. (Like the 11pm call I received for initial contact). You usually can tell a flake if you meet them before the shoot or if any of the red flags I listed above appear. I don't attend a shoot unless it is confirmed the day before by email/text/phone...something.
one of our mayhem models requested us to remove an image credit because her "friends" were using it to make fun of her on facebook.
Josue Pena wrote: yes, I have shoot a lot of models on MM and a lot of models out of MM, had to stop using credits because some of the models got stalkers blah blah blah.... not worth to deal with, so stop doing it,
While there are lots of great professional in attitude models on MM many are just not. from those who won't return calls to outright flakes. I don't ask or check for references. I'm not interested in hearing from those you worked with because I'll assume that you did means you showed up. It might be a eye opener to hear from those you flaked on though. One of our members who used to be pretty active in the forums would cancel last minute and flake on photographers all the time including paid shoots. Anybody who complained would be shut down right away with snarky comments and put downs. My guess is the flake rate is about the same with OMP.
So what can you do to protect yourself? Look at how often they update their photographs. A port filled with images from 2009 or 2010 may indicate they don't shoot much. Do they respond quickly to emails and or calls? Listen carefully to not only what they say but how. Never set up shoots with models who refuse to provide a contact number. Some models refuse to provide them. Avoid those models. Don't accept excuses about why. In today's world most have cell numbers. Google voice is free. No number. No shoot. Don't take flakes personally. Don't invest in studio space, MUA or much else in models you haven't worked with. Its great that some of our photographer members haven't had any flakes. Maybe those who have offer work that is better then ours. However that they have been so fortunate has no bearing on those who haven't. There is NO excuse for flakery. Call or email well before a shoot and or don't accept shoots you really don't want to do.
Edit: Agency models you book will contact models for you if they are late and no shows and flakes will not be with a agency long. However in this day and time there are inexpensive pay as you go phones for as little as $10.00 a month. There are apps like MagicJack for IOS and Android which offer free numbers so a model doesn't have to provide her personal number. Google voice if free. Don't accept that any model you book cannot provide a working number and that she cannot call to confirm work.
Those that won't are goofs in my view and likely to waste your time,
Eliza C
Posts: 7,869
Swansea, Wales, United Kingdom
As I have said to the above poster before try to get an agency model's number or get her without the agency checking your references and a firm booking being made. Good luck with that.
References are essential if in doubt.
Once references are checked and a booking is made and it is firm that is the time for cellphone exchange.
But there is no excuse for flakery that I would agree with. There are ways of avoiding that happening in the vast majority of cases.
If it happens without a really good excuse that can be proved that the other party is willing to accept then I suggest billing them for your time. You may not get paid but it will likely deter them from doing it to people again. I have had flakes and I have billed them. I have been booked several times and paid without me even asking. This is normal in the world of work.
Rich Images
Posts: 45
Stoughton, Massachusetts, US
studio36uk wrote: "Interwebs models tend, more than actual living, breathing, walking and talking genuine models in the real world, to be self-delusional hubristic narcissist wannabes with grandiose egos and sense of self-worth, who somehow divine that if they label themselves as a "model" they are, as if by magic, transformed into one."
It doesn't shock me that the flakes come from MM, because literally anyone can set up a model account and call themselves a "model" and then if they flake, they aren't going to get called out the forums, they're not going to receive a public rating, they aren't going to be kicked off the site -- they might make someone's "do not recommend" list and be talked about in social circles and if asked for references, but that doesn't bother them because they were never actually in this to begin with.
Simply put, if the standards were set higher for model accounts to be approved by gate-keepers, the flake rate MIGHT go down because quality would be higher. But nearly everyone gets approved, so it's up to the rest of us to weed through the trash.
Emily, I agree with your first paragraph, but your second paragraph is waaaay of base. to date I have rejected 24% of the profiles I have seen. Not even close to "But nearly everyone gets approved"
Eliza C
Posts: 7,869
Swansea, Wales, United Kingdom
Rich Images wrote: I love this response.
Except what makes us real models is our tax return and the fact that most of us get most of our business from non internet contact in the real world. There are also thousands of agency and well known freelance models here. We are generally only on the web at all to host our portfolio as clients in the real world expect to be able to look up your port online. The only other reason for being here is to work with photographers who are 'internet photographers' and one could in some instances say exactly the same about them. But I personally do not because I think that stereotypes based on a minority demonstrating a lack of professionalism is unjust.
BTHPhoto wrote: I'm not one of those photographers who communicates in code, assumes model can read my mind, and expects everything to fall into my lap. I'm meticulous and thorough in project planning and logistical arrangements, and I have an extremely low flake rate compared to the majority if you believe the complaints on here. However every single flake I've ever had has been an MM model. Why is it so much more likely that someone who signs up on a portfolio site and solicits modeling work will fail to follow through than it is that someone who responds to an ad on a university bulletin board, or someone who I ask on facebook or myspace, or someone who I hand a business card and ask to contact me if they're interested, or someone who is referred by a friend, or someone who sees my website and inquires about modeling opportunities, will fail to follow through? And people on MM make jokes about facebook and myspace wannabe models.
Why is it so much harder on MM than anywhere else to find a reliable model? What's your theory?
I understand your frustration and bewilderment. I just had a model text me yesterday to cancel a shoot for today that we have had planned for 2 months. Very close to just giving up MM....not worth the aggravation.
Tony Lawrence wrote: Edit: Agency models you book will contact models for you if they are late and no shows and flakes will not be with a agency long. However in this day and time there are inexpensive pay as you go phones for as little as $10.00 a month. There are apps like MagicJack for IOS and Android which offer free numbers so a model doesn't have to provide her personal number. Google voice if free. Don't accept that any model you book cannot provide a working number and that she cannot call to confirm work.
Definitely checking into this! Especially since I had a photographer text me about non-work related stuff and calling me at 11pm at night. There have been a few times I've regretted giving out my number.
c_h_r_i_s
Posts: 13,360
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
Josue Pena wrote:
yes, I have shoot a lot of models on MM and a lot of models out of MM, had to stop using credits because some of the models got stalkers blah blah blah.... not worth to deal with, so stop doing it,
They'd still get stalkers from their own ports, unless stalkers only view your port.
c_h_r_i_s
Posts: 13,360
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
studio36uk wrote: "Interwebs models tend, more than actual living, breathing, walking and talking genuine models in the real world, to be self-delusional hubristic narcissist wannabes with grandiose egos and sense of self-worth, who somehow divine that if they label themselves as a "model" they are, as if by magic, transformed into one."
Studio36
But ego has to replace the lack of money they make from modelling.
Peach Jones wrote: Emily, I agree with your first paragraph, but your second paragraph is waaaay of base. to date I have rejected 24% of the profiles I have seen. Not even close to "But nearly everyone gets approved"
"Nearly everyone gets approved" = 24% of applicants getting rejected.
Definitely checking into this! Especially since I had a photographer text me about non-work related stuff and calling me at 11pm at night. There have been a few times I've regretted giving out my number.
Google voice is cool and free. You get a second number. There are several free apps in the Market like Bobsled which I use and a few more. Some like Bobsled are more limited. In my view there is no reason not too provide a working number to those who want to hire you. This issue was discussed before and a member claimed he had a friend who had thousands of fans on Facebook and having her phone number out would be a problem. Unless you are like her with thousands of fans it may not be a big deal. Heck the pay as you go phones are super cheap. Being a freelance model means having alternative ways for new clients to contact you.
Eliza C
Posts: 7,869
Swansea, Wales, United Kingdom
John Allan wrote: Because Model Mayhem is the Fantasy Football of modeling.
For some no doubt. But there are tens of thousands of professional here and some very dedicated hobbyists.
In addition what applies to the models also applies to the photographers. There are amateurs and hobbysists and even the vast majority of those are fine. While among the top people even they can act improperly toward models. As I have said before one of the most famed photographers on here has been serving time in prison for what he did to several models and he was a nightmare on the phone with messages. The mods can bear me out. So one has to be carfeful as a model.
In real life situations modelling where you meet clients through work one has a z card. At that moment you generally know who it is you are dealing with.
On the net it is different because just like there are models here who are not doing this professionally there are also photographers many of whom do not act with propriety. Even the professionals can call at incovenient times when one is engaged on a job. The voicemail idea is ok but I would still rather not be harrassed by people not serious about booking me. I have email for that and if it is an urgent job generally you will be out of luck anyway because models often have bookings or other work commitments. We cannot drop everything for photographers.
Because of the harrasment of one photographer I already had to change my cell.
EVERY photographer that books me then gets my phone number. Once booked that is fine and essential. That means already around 50 photographers and the same number of artists and then the same MUA's and fashion clients for fitting etc plus fellow models have my number. So can you imagine what my voicemail is like on a daily basis? and 90% of the messages are simply not about a job. They want a chat, advice, borrow wardrobe, to see if I can cover for them on a double booking next day when I am already booked or working etc.
So adding to that is not an option unless I know it will defintely lead to work and the person is kosher. Just like you as photographers need to be cautious who you are dealing with so do we. Often paying photographers are beginners and so we need to be careful too when booked for example by a photographer who only has 6 wedding pictures in his port.
So when they send an email saying
"hi I may be interested in shooting you next week for a project I have in mind what is your cell number?" would you give it? Come on. The same goes for you as it does us.
And saying that some of us live in a fantasy world or have an inflated self ego can equally apply to photographers. But to judge all of you on the activities of a few would be ridiculous.
There are simple cautious methods for eliminating risk of flake or unprofessionalism. There are ways you can do it as a photographer and ways you can do it as a model. References are important. That is why in THE REAL WORLD every employer takes them up and every professional or dedicated amateur has them!!!
Those are all also true of people who've agreed to a shoot after responding to ads on a bulletin board, contacting me through my web site, or contacting me after I hand them a business card. I know those are common complaints that some people have about MM, but they don't differentiate MM from many other venues that, at least for me, produce different results.
My bet is that because the models on MM are subject to so many more real or perceived offers the value they place on a single offer could be less in some cases. Although I have only one true flake to my memory, the comparisons of having a higher percentage of models more committed to my projects when coming from sources other than MM is also true for me. I certainly have worked with some very fine models who showed great commitment from MM but the percentage has been lower in comparison to other sources.
MM is more anonymous then a lot of the other methods mentioned in the OP. Shooting a friend of a friend or someone that contacts you via Facebook has a bit more of a human element behind it then MM.
I really can't complain. I've been on MM for over 4 years now and I've only had ONE model cancel a shoot with me--and she gave me 10 days notice. But I do my due diligence. I see WHO they've worked with and I see how they are on the old "back and forth." If they're on top of their game, I'll take them seriously. If not: "Next!"
Best of luck to ya, -JULIAN
PS. I also recommend that we be "friends on Face Book." Gives us both a bit of a 360 on each other. ;-)
MMR Digital
Posts: 1,353
Doylestown, Pennsylvania, US
To test your screening process. MM is the Aberdeen Proving Grounds of wanna bees. I am one. So are the models I select/communicate with. Had 1 flake in three years.
Sophistocles
Posts: 21,308
Seattle, Washington, US
Peach Jones wrote: Very close to just giving up MM....not worth the aggravation.
From a Gatekeeper, those are pretty strong words.
When I was shooting for a radio station, and all of the "models" were generally complete amateurs who just wanted to be on the station's web site, I had about a 20% flake rate.
It was expected.
From online, my flake rate has been about zero. I'm stretching to think of a time I was completely flaked on.
I suspect it might have something to do with communication.
Sophistocles
Posts: 21,308
Seattle, Washington, US
EMILY C wrote: "Nearly everyone gets approved" = 24% of applicants getting rejected.
Still, it's nice to know it actually happens!
That percentage is deceiving.
Of the 24% who get rejected, what component are outright scammers, fake profiles and other throw-away sign-ups? What percentage are from managers, agents, agencies, magazines, etc? Those profiles are regularly rejected (and now shown the path to paying for "sponsored castings" since they're not qualified to have an account, but can still pay to expose their message).
Since we know for a fact that quite a few scammers get through on a daily basis, that number is even more meaningless unless quantified in terms of demographics.
How about stats on the number of genuine real-person sign-ups that are rejected on the basis of image content alone?
I think you'll find the real number, then, is eye-opening.
studio36uk wrote: "Interwebs models tend, more than actual living, breathing, walking and talking genuine models in the real world, to be self-delusional hubristic narcissist wannabes with grandiose egos and sense of self-worth, who somehow divine that if they label themselves as a "model" they are, as if by magic, transformed into one."
Studio36
I've shot with approximately 150 "interwebs models."
Every one of them was a "breathing, walking and talking genuine model in the real world."
That makes your flake rate (.416/year) almost twice as high as mine (.259/year).
At .259/year, and the nearly 8 years you've been on this site, that means that a whopping 2 whole models have flaked on you in the time you've been on Model Mayhem.
Really?
Why are you wasting space with this thread?
It's been my experience that MM is no more or less reliable than other avenues of models, be it OMP (back in the day) or facebook or friends of friends.
At .259/year, and the nearly 8 years you've been on this site, that means that a whopping 2 whole models have flaked on you in the time you've been on Model Mayhem.
Really?
Why are you wasting space with this thread?
It's been my experience that MM is no more or less reliable than other avenues of models, be it OMP (back in the day) or facebook or friends of friends.
That's actually 7 flakes in 27 years, and all 7 have been from MM, which if the OP wasn't clear enough, is the heart of the matter I'm wondering about.
If you really want to tear into the details:
I've also worked with 5 models who I contacted through MM who didn't flake.
5 of those 7 MM flakes have been paid gigs.
My process for communication, negotiation, and confirmation was pretty much the same for those 7 as it was for the 280-some who didn't flake.
Nearly ever model I've ever worked with, including 6 of the 7 MM flakes, has met me to talk things over before scheduling a shoot.
I always contact a model a couple days before a scheduled shoot just to confirm that we're still on.
In short, in nearly 30 years, I've never had a flake who wasn't from MM, and I don't treat MM models any differently than non-MM models, but over half the MM models I've arranged a shoot with have flaked. I'm just trying to understand why my results are so different with MM contacts than anywhere else.
In my findings of this area... 75% of the so-called models aren't models at all. Most have the same line...my friends think I should be a model. Followed by I need an escort and that I;m only 5'4 and have no outfits. They will flake on you in a heartbeat.
I can get models from Portland to come up with no problem, and find them more professional. A visiting photographer from NC was in my area and thought he had 3 shoots lined up... all flaked. He didn't believe me when I told him it was like that around here with the local MM models.
I agree communication is a must, but they will have actual voice and text convos with you even on the day you suppose to shoot and then nothing... but they will contact you about a week later and say their phone died... lol
must be something in our water. When we find those in our area that won't flake everyone jumps on them for shoots and then you get tired of shooting or seeing the same models.
So for me I find high numbers of flakes with TF models
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