Quick question about model/photographer etiquette. When the two of you have worked to come up with an idea, one that contains ideas from both of you, and suddenly one party goes silent or flakes, is it ok to try and do the same shoot with the same ideas with another party. Basically what I'm asking is when there's a divorce, who gets the kid? I've come up with a few ideas with various models that I've been really excited to shoot, but have had to scrap because the models went AWOL.
KungPaoChic
Posts: 1,872
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
Second Nature Studio wrote: Quick question about model/photographer etiquette. When the two of you have worked to come up with an idea, one that contains ideas from both of you, and suddenly one party goes silent or flakes, is it ok to try and do the same shoot with the same ideas with another party. Basically what I'm asking is when there's a divorce, who gets the kid? I've come up with a few ideas with various models that I've been really excited to shoot, but have had to scrap because the models went AWOL.
Ideas are not really copyrightable. I have never has this issue because I normally develop my concepts myself but if you want to shoot something and the other person has dropped out just do it.
Give the same concept to 10 different photographers and they will probably shoot it ten different ways and put their own spin on it.
I have had photographers that I have talked about my ideas with go AWOL on me. Then I see they did the same ideas I had with someone else.
While there are no rules against it, I think its pretty bad.
Now I keep my ideas to myself until I am for sure the shoot is going to happen.
You're taking the notion of a collaboration wayyyyy too personally.
Lots of people have ideas. They are meaningless and hold zero value until they're executed. Try to copyright the ideas leading up to a shoot and see how that goes.
On another note, it's not a divorce if you only talked about getting "married."
Caitin wrote: I have had photographers that I have talked about my ideas with go AWOL on me. Then I see they did the same ideas I had with someone else.
While there are no rules against it, I think its pretty bad.
Now I keep my ideas to myself until I am for sure the shoot is going to happen.
People who think their shoot ideas are somehow original and innovative and hold some type of value are usually deluded. Give that same exact idea that you have to 100 photographers and it will be executed in 100 different ways.
Do you think you've had a single idea for a photo shoot that hasn't already been done?
to me the only issue is whether you want to maintain good relations with the model that had the idea/location you "stole" but really there are no original ideas, just original interactions between model and photographer.
Michael Pandolfo wrote: People who think their shoot ideas are somehow original and innovative and hold some type of value are usually deluded. Give that same exact idea that you have to 100 photographers and it will be executed in 100 different ways.
Do you think you've had a single idea for a photo shoot that hasn't already been done?
No.
But particulars are very important.
When I come up with a idea I research it. I look at ways it has been done. I see the differences in the ideas I want to create . I have put allot of time into it.
When I share these particulars with someone that was going to shoot them with me and then they flake? Then the next thing you know I see it exactly the way I explained it. How do you think I will feel?
Thanks for the input everyone. Always nice to hear different opinions. This definitely helped clear my mind a little bit. Michael P. always good to hear from you.
fullmetalphotographer wrote: An idea and concept can be copyrighted but it has to be put to paper, what is often called a white paper. Ideas just thrown about are free to use.
A "white paper" is generally defined as an authoritative report on a major issue. And the U.S. copyright office says, on its website:
"When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. "
I could find no reference to a white paper in the sense that you describe it. I would think that no matter how specific the description, an idea or concept would fall far short of "fixed in a tangible form"
Can you cite a reference?
While the situation the OP describes can be frustrating, it's akin to someone saying "It was my idea that we bake cookies but I don't want to now, so you can't ever bake cookies!" My response would be "I'm going ahead anyway. That's the way the cookie crumbles."
"Custody of ideas?" You can't copyright ideas, so how could anyone "own" ideas to gain "custody" off? This is odd to me.
If someone does something that you've discussed doing with before, and they did it with someone else, just go do it your own way. It's bound to be different! There are no original ideas, just original ways of doing the same thing is all.
Caitin wrote: No.
But particulars are very important.
When I come up with a idea I research it. I look at ways it has been done. I see the differences in the ideas I want to create . I have put allot of time into it.
When I share these particulars with someone that was going to shoot them with me and then they flake? Then the next thing you know I see it exactly the way I explained it. How do you think I will feel?
I think you would feel like the idea is more important than the execution and thus you're anger and frustration. Unfortunately for all the people who have great ideas that they never execute, that's not the case.
It doesn't matter what you research or how unique you think your ideas are. You could provide every minute detail of your idea to 100 different photographers and that final image would look unique in each of those 100 final images.
I know we all like to think our ideas are novel and different and that's where the value of the image lies (especially from the person who isn't actually producing the image). It's not.
If that weren't the case, we would be allowed to copyright the idea as an intellectual property and not the actual execution of that idea.
For example, let's say you submit all these revolutionary ideas, based on tireless research, to a photographer and he produces the image based on every one of those ideas...whose image is it? Yours for the ideas? Or the photographer for actually executing? Right...it's the photographer...not the "idea generator."
Doesn't that tell you that the intellectual property value isn't in the idea?
fullmetalphotographer wrote: An idea and concept can be copyrighted but it has to be put to paper, what is often called a white paper. Ideas just thrown about are free to use.
No.
But particulars are very important.
When I come up with a idea I research it. I look at ways it has been done. I see the differences in the ideas I want to create . I have put allot of time into it.
When I share these particulars with someone that was going to shoot them with me and then they flake? Then the next thing you know I see it exactly the way I explained it. How do you think I will feel?
So. the model comes up with the idea. She lists everything there is to know about her concept... right down to the placement of the fan that blows the fog in exactly the right direction.... (s)he has thought of everything.... does (s)he also decide how to set the camera? White balance, f/stop, many in-camera settings... a single light or choice of lens itself can change the very feel of an image. I would love to see someone come up with a concept that includes every possible variable to a point where the photographer can't change it in some way.
I think you would feel like the idea is more important than the execution and thus you're anger and frustration. Unfortunately for all the people who have great ideas that they never execute, that's not the case.
It doesn't matter what you research or how unique you think your ideas are. You could provide every minute detail of your idea to 100 different photographers and that final image would look unique in each of those 100 final images.
I know we all like to think our ideas are novel and different and that's where the value of the image lies (especially from the person who isn't actually producing the image). It's not.
If that weren't the case, we would be allowed to copyright the idea as an intellectual property and not the actual execution of that idea.
For example, let's say you submit all these revolutionary ideas, based on tireless research, to a photographer and he produces the image based on every one of those ideas...whose image is it? Yours for the ideas? Or the photographer for actually executing? Right...it's the photographer...not the "idea generator."
Doesn't that tell you that the intellectual property value isn't in the idea?
Not the question of property. Is it right? Justify it all you want. Its low!
Caitin wrote: I have had photographers that I have talked about my ideas with go AWOL on me. Then I see they did the same ideas I had with someone else.
While there are no rules against it, I think its pretty bad.
Now I keep my ideas to myself until I am for sure the shoot is going to happen.
Agree - I give only a sketch or overview to prospective models - I only share concepts in detail with those I am working with regularly - same with locations and other goodies....
I think you would feel like the idea is more important than the execution and thus you're anger and frustration. Unfortunately for all the people who have great ideas that they never execute, that's not the case.
It doesn't matter what you research or how unique you think your ideas are. You could provide every minute detail of your idea to 100 different photographers and that final image would look unique in each of those 100 final images.
I know we all like to think our ideas are novel and different and that's where the value of the image lies (especially from the person who isn't actually producing the image). It's not.
If that weren't the case, we would be allowed to copyright the idea as an intellectual property and not the actual execution of that idea.
For example, let's say you submit all these revolutionary ideas, based on tireless research, to a photographer and he produces the image based on every one of those ideas...whose image is it? Yours for the ideas? Or the photographer for actually executing? Right...it's the photographer...not the "idea generator."
Doesn't that tell you that the intellectual property value isn't in the idea?
It works the other way to. See how upset a photographer would get if models took his ideas and techniques to get the shot with another photographer. It would be like wow that's an awesome idea. Thanks. Then run to a photographer that will give shared copyrights to the project. Now what would be the spin? Pretty low right. And what if there was a paying client involved and your idea got back to them 1st by another photographer? And they dumped you for the new crew?
It isn't right. Its low.
RKD Photographic
Posts: 2,996
Iserlohn, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
Orca Bay Images wrote: An idea isn't subject to copyright. And if the model flaked on you, are you really going to worry about pissing him or her off?
Go ahead and shoot the concept with someone else.
Under that scenario, yes; though I can understand that if the other party 'just decided' to do the idea with someone else why you'd be upset...
I had a model decide not to go through with an idea we'd discussed over a period of some months and that was after I'd purchased costume items for the styling and had them delivered to her for fitting (we'd worked together three or four times already, so I felt 'safe' doing this - in the event she posted the clothing to me at no extra cost after I asked for them back), so I felt quite justified shooting the concept with another model.
Second Nature Studio wrote: Quick question about model/photographer etiquette. When the two of you have worked to come up with an idea, one that contains ideas from both of you, and suddenly one party goes silent or flakes, is it ok to try and do the same shoot with the same ideas with another party. Basically what I'm asking is when there's a divorce, who gets the kid? I've come up with a few ideas with various models that I've been really excited to shoot, but have had to scrap because the models went AWOL.
Since there was no shoot, there is no kid to be worry about, ideas come and go and do not mean much until they are executed per your mutual vision. You worry to much, many of us pretend we have original ideas but it turns out we are reinventing the wheel. LOL
Second Nature Studio wrote: Quick question about model/photographer etiquette. When the two of you have worked to come up with an idea, one that contains ideas from both of you, and suddenly one party goes silent or flakes, is it ok to try and do the same shoot with the same ideas with another party. Basically what I'm asking is when there's a divorce, who gets the kid? I've come up with a few ideas with various models that I've been really excited to shoot, but have had to scrap because the models went AWOL.
Suppose the model didn't disappear and shot the idea and everything was great.
Then another model asks you to shoot her like that, what would you do?
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