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Model
Adele Koker
Posts: 58
Seoul, Seoul, Korea (South)


I just wonder how photographers feel, seeing that I am new in the business. If I have worked with a photographer on tfcd basis and he posts images of me on MM and refuses to credit me, is that 'okay' and should I let it slide or should I just ignore it and move on... OR do I actually have a right to be upset about it and report him or something. I thought the whole point of the agreement is for both parties (or all parties) involved in the making of the image, gets full credit and so get exposure.

I don't understand the point of refusing to credit, or actually this guy is pretending that he has not posted anything of me... even though he has. What does it gain someone to be like that...
Feb 25 13 08:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
milomo
Posts: 631
Miami, Florida, US


If he gave you the images he agreed, and you didn't agree for credit, then no. He doesn't have to, and honestly I don't think it is expected either.
Feb 25 13 08:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
me voy
Posts: 1,063
Amherst, Massachusetts, US


There is no rule on giving credit to someone. Be happy with the images you got for free.
Feb 25 13 08:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wolfy4u
Posts: 1,096
Grand Junction, Colorado, US


I disagree. I think it's rude and selfish to not give credit to your model. It also guarantees that you'll have exposure from her portfolio via the credited photos button. Not everything in life should have to be written in law or a contract. Some things should simply be courtesy.
Feb 25 13 08:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eowyn-Rose
Posts: 158
Seattle, Washington, US


Don't take it personally-this applies in general. If it's a TF* situation, I just download the photos available and post them while giving credit.
Credit everything-it's not necessarily required, but it's smart and polite. It gives you references, improves networking ability, and photographers have all basic copyright, meaning the photos aren't yours unless there's a prior written agreement. If they didn't credit you, they're losing free exposure, so I don't see why they wouldn't do so, honestly.

In general, don't take it personally, but learn from it.
Feb 25 13 08:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4,107
Alexandria, Virginia, US


If I see people who do not list credits at all I consider it very unprofessional

I understand that some amateur models do not want credited and the photographers who shoot with them may elect not to credit them -

still not the way its done in the real world....

everyone on the team should be credited - hair / mua / wardrobe / designer / retoucher etc etc
Feb 25 13 09:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ade Barkah
Posts: 35
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Adele Koker wrote:
I don't understand the point of refusing to credit, or actually this guy is pretending that he has not posted anything of me... even though he has. What does it gain someone to be like that...

Some people are just jerks.  Move on to bigger and better things.

Feb 25 13 09:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Michael Walker
Posts: 11,985
Costa Mesa, California, US


common wrote:
If he gave you the images he agreed, and you didn't agree for credit, then no. He doesn't have to, and honestly I don't think it is expected either.

While it's not a requirement unless agreed upon in writing before or after the shoot to me it's common courtesy to do so. And yes I EXPECT it from all involved. If there are no credits on a photo of mine the model is either not on MM or asked NOT to be credited which happens occasionally.

Feb 25 13 09:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Laurence Moan
Posts: 7,718
Huntington Beach, California, US


I can't imagine why others don't credit but here's the old "end around" play.

Make a new list. I think the default is called "More Killer Photos of Adele Koker". Then go to the photographers port and list your picture.

Winning!
Feb 25 13 09:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Adele Koker
Posts: 58
Seoul, Seoul, Korea (South)


me voy wrote:
There is no rule on giving credit to someone. Be happy with the images you got for free.

There seems to be a misconception. Photographers don't do models a sweet little favour for offering tfcd... It's an agreement. Both work equally hard. The model at staying in ship shape, maintaining clear skin and practised poses and the photographer on shooting and editing. Also, if he likes the images enough to post them then he clearly gained from the shoot. It's never a "free" gift.

I agree. It is just common courtesy to credit a model for her work, especially since that is what the agreement is.

This particular guy is also the kind who will say: Yeah, yeah let's shoot in February!!!" And as soon as mid January comes and a reference is made to that statement then suddenly the model gets ignored. And no, it is not from a lack of contact. Facebook, Gmail, MM. Yeah, we're facebook 'friends'.

I just think there are too many people on here who lack professionalism and common courtesy...

If I can take the effort to credit him, then he can do the same...

Feb 25 13 09:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Adele Koker
Posts: 58
Seoul, Seoul, Korea (South)


Laurence Moan wrote:
I can't imagine why others don't credit but here's the old "end around" play.

Make a new list. I think the default is called "More Killer Photos of Adele Koker". Then go to the photographers port and list your picture.

Winning!

Loving that!!! smile

Feb 25 13 09:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Adele Koker
Posts: 58
Seoul, Seoul, Korea (South)


Fotografica Gregor wrote:
If I see people who do not list credits at all I consider it very unprofessional

I understand that some amateur models do not want credited and the photographers who shoot with them may elect not to credit them -

still not the way its done in the real world....

everyone on the team should be credited - hair / mua / wardrobe / designer / retoucher etc etc

Nailed it! That's exactly how I feel about it.

Feb 25 13 09:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,775
Atlanta, Georgia, US


No requirment but I know I among the only one who considers it unprofessional.  I personally don't work with people who don't credit.  Sure sometimes that person may have removed themselves, it can happen, but if I see an entire portfolio without credits I skip them; a red flag for unprofessionalism.
Feb 25 13 09:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Adele Koker
Posts: 58
Seoul, Seoul, Korea (South)


AJScalzitti wrote:
No requirment but I know I among the only one who considers it unprofessional.  I personally don't work with people who don't credit.  Sure sometimes that person may have removed themselves, it can happen, but if I see an entire portfolio without credits I skip them; a red flag for unprofessionalism.

I agree and I have also learnt the hard way to look at a person's port not only for credits, but to look for what he posts. If 90% of the port is titties and boodems then I walk away. I have nothing against nude models, even though I don't shoot that way  myself, but I do have something against photographers how seem to do photography for all the wrong reasons.

Glad this is cleared out now smile Thanx to all

Feb 25 13 09:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
me voy
Posts: 1,063
Amherst, Massachusetts, US


Adele Koker wrote:

There seems to be a misconception. Photographers don't do models a sweet little favour for offering tfcd... It's an agreement. Both work equally hard. The model at staying in ship shape, maintaining clear skin and practised poses and the photographer on shooting and editing. Also, if he likes the images enough to post them then he clearly gained from the shoot. It's never a "free" gift.

I agree. It is just common courtesy to credit a model for her work, especially since that is what the agreement is.

This particular guy is also the kind who will say: Yeah, yeah let's shoot in February!!!" And as soon as mid January comes and a reference is made to that statement then suddenly the model gets ignored. And no, it is not from a lack of contact. Facebook, Gmail, MM. Yeah, we're facebook 'friends'.

I just think there are too many people on here who lack professionalism and common courtesy...

If I can take the effort to credit him, then he can do the same...

There seems to be a misconception that photographers get their equipment for free. Shooting and editing cost money too.

Feb 25 13 10:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
cwwmbm
Posts: 432
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


me voy wrote:

There seems to be a misconception that photographers get their equipment for free. Shooting and editing cost money too.

The right time for that kind of attitude is during the compensations negotiations, not after. Nobody made a photographer buy that gear and then agree to do TFP - if agree to do it then he should do it in a professional manner.

Feb 25 13 10:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Liquid Lace Studios
Posts: 197
Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia


Good old fashioned courtesy ... seems to fading these days sad
Feb 25 13 11:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sichenze Photography
Posts: 276
Front Royal, Virginia, US


If they are on MM I always credit. If they are not and some of them are not and do not want there name on here but have no problem with their image, then I do not credit them.  In some cases the credited model has left MM but I still leave up the credit anyway.
Feb 26 13 04:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ian Brooks Photography
Posts: 577
Kincardine, Ontario, Canada


I am not saying they are right, but some people will say that a credit is just a link that takes visitors off their page.
Feb 26 13 05:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1,489
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


me voy wrote:

There seems to be a misconception that photographers get their equipment for free. Shooting and editing cost money too.

This is not the thread for a discussion on the merits of Trade vs. Paid shoots.  But a trade shoot has nothing to do with what either party invests prior to a shoot.  Trade is not free.  The model and photographer both get something - hence the word "trade".  Free is when someone gives you something and they don't get anything in return - like a sample cookie handed out in the grocery store.

Whether one or more members of the team gets a credit should have nothing to do with the terms of compensation.  Give credit, don't give credit that is a personal decision to be agreed upon by the parties involved.

I personally give credit to all models and the styling team unless they ask me not to.  If that person is not on MM I would use the caption to indicate who it is.  I give credits because I make it a requirement when I provide images that I be credited (and my copyright be placed in the copyright field) and it's only fair that I return the favour.

I wonder if the photographer referred to in the OP would be pissed if he did not get a credit when the model posted the images to her portfolio?  Probably.


Just my $0.02

Feb 26 13 05:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
name removed3
Posts: 264
Boston, Massachusetts, US


credits don't do anything on MM except maybe get u some views in your port.
Feb 26 13 05:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1,489
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Ian Brooks Photography wrote:
I am not saying they are right, but some people will say that a credit is just a link that takes visitors off their page.

It does do that.  But this is a networking site and that is part of what this site is all about.  Virtually every networking site links off the page (some do it in new windows).  And the nature of this site is such that many people browsing profiles are not there to make a booking but to explore their connections and find interesting art.   

If someone wants a site that limits the visitor's ability to leave the page then they should create a website that does not have external links.  Photographers web pages rarely have credits, and the few that do don't normally link to the contributors.

I personally almost always open a credited person's profile in a new window/tab while browsing so I don't lose my place. 

Just my $0.02

Feb 26 13 05:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18,211
Orlando, Florida, US


Adele Koker wrote:
I just wonder how photographers feel, seeing that I am new in the business. If I have worked with a photographer on tfcd basis and he posts images of me on MM and refuses to credit me, is that 'okay' and should I let it slide or should I just ignore it and move on... OR do I actually have a right to be upset about it and report him or something. I thought the whole point of the agreement is for both parties (or all parties) involved in the making of the image, gets full credit and so get exposure.

I don't understand the point of refusing to credit, or actually this guy is pretending that he has not posted anything of me... even though he has. What does it gain someone to be like that...

credit on MM=exposure  lol hardly

I'll be honest I'm lazy and no way in hell I will remember everyone's MM#   to credit each photograph

Feb 26 13 05:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1,489
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Northern Lights Images wrote:
credits don't do anything on MM except maybe get u some views in your port.

I don't know of anyone who has found my portfolio because of a credit though I suspect it has happened.

But I know I have found models that I want to work with based on following a credit on a profile.  I've actually ended up working with at least one model that way (twice), and have at least a half dozen that I hope to connect with in the coming months for various projects.  Perhaps I would have found them through the browse feature or a casting call eventually. 

There are also a few models I have seen that were not credited that I would have liked to connect with for projects.

Feb 26 13 05:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bobby C
Posts: 1,948
Portland, Oregon, US


IMO, credits is a MUST for both photographer and model.
It's not a legal issue but one of being supportive of the "industry" and the people that are involved in it.
Most photographers and models make hardly any money in this field. So giving and getting credit is the only way to acknowledge the person's contribution.
Giving credit does not cost anything anyway, so why the rudeness or negligence.
Feb 26 13 05:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
fullmetalphotographer
Posts: 2,760
Fresno, California, US


Adele Koker wrote:
I just wonder how photographers feel, seeing that I am new in the business. If I have worked with a photographer on tfcd basis and he posts images of me on MM and refuses to credit me, is that 'okay' and should I let it slide or should I just ignore it and move on... OR do I actually have a right to be upset about it and report him or something. I thought the whole point of the agreement is for both parties (or all parties) involved in the making of the image, gets full credit and so get exposure.

I don't understand the point of refusing to credit, or actually this guy is pretending that he has not posted anything of me... even though he has. What does it gain someone to be like that...

Simply put you need to honor the agreement. If it is to give credit and not edit the images you should honor it.

Now my own policy is like this:
For TF if I get a credit it's nice but I won't loss any sleep on it. My basic policy is that you will get basic set of edited images and you can redit if you want and use them to promote yourself as needed. You can sell the images or publish the images in a publication without my permission because I hold the copyright.

For a paid shoot if possible you get a tear sheet for your portfolio if the client is willing.

I know some shooters that a photo credit and leaving the image untouched is more important than pay, I not like that I am Jaded. wink I turned CNN down on the use of my images because they would not pay, but would give credit.

In a TF I want everyone to benefit as much as possible.

Feb 26 13 05:56 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Al Lock Photography
Posts: 15,846
Bangkok, Bangkok, Thailand


Wolfy4u wrote:
I  think it's rude and selfish to not give credit to your model. It also guarantees that you'll have exposure from her portfolio via the credited photos button. Not everything in life should have to be written in law or a contract. Some things should simply be courtesy.

Bobby Ctkr wrote:
IMO, credits is a MUST for both photographer and model.
It's not a legal issue but one of being supportive of the "industry" and the people that are involved in it.
Most photographers and models make hardly any money in this field. So giving and getting credit is the only way to acknowledge the person's contribution.
Giving credit does not cost anything anyway, so why the rudeness or negligence.

+1

If a model is on MM, I try to credit her (also MUAs, etc.).

Feb 26 13 07:53 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GM Photography
Posts: 6,087
Olympia, Washington, US


I credit all models that shoot with me (unless they ask me not to) and ask that they do the same. 

I agree with your points that it is common courtesy and that trade shoots should benefit both parties.  However, it's important to understand that being on Model Mayhem and doing trade shoots doesn't mean you're "in the business" or that everyone is a "professional".  The large majority of the members here are doing photo shoots for fun or as a creative outlet. 

Make sure to have everything about the terms of the shoot documented - how many pics you get, where and how they can be used, how long it will take to get them, whether you get credited or not, etc.  Check references.
Feb 26 13 08:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 2,850
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


Ian Brooks Photography wrote:
I am not saying they are right, but some people will say that a credit is just a link that takes visitors off their page.

Perhaps those people have never heard of tabbed browsing?

Feb 26 13 05:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 2,850
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


Crediting is basic professional courtesy.  I routinely credit all MM models, unless they ask me not to.
Feb 26 13 05:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jay Lee Studios
Posts: 1,238
San Diego, California, US


MM is a model/photographer only facebook. Some of the models I work with got tired of being spammed by GWC's finding their link on my profile and asked me to take the credits off.  I am am pretty sure out of the hundreds of models I have shot I might be credited on 10 photos on MM.

You can sweat not being credited on MM or you can worry about doing some work that gets you paid.  MM will get you networked to some great photographers and models, but agencies and managers are not allowed here, which means you getting a paid job off of a credit on someone's portfolio is VERY slim to none.
Feb 27 13 09:32 am  Link  Quote 
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