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Photographer
Raoul Isidro Images
Posts: 5,982
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia


Why join contests when the submission is fake?

Desperate photographers are desperate to win at any cost, using lies and deceit.

http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2013/02/whe … ing-photo/

http://2.static.img-dpreview.com/files/news/4884394315/520/prizewinner.jpg?v=1962
This is a marine sniper? Really?
It is an insult to all legitimate and elite marine snipers who are truly qualified to be called snipers, active or otherwise...
(nothing against the person on the photo, but the misrepresentation done by the photographer...)

.
Feb 26 13 05:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Bobby C
Posts: 1,708
Portland, Oregon, US


I find all photography contests to be BS.
Feb 26 13 05:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SME
Posts: 20,854
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Wow.  I wouldn't expect an article like that to ever be written about a Magnum photographer.  I'm interested to see how he (and/or Magnum) responds.
Feb 26 13 07:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan K Photography
Posts: 5,409
STATEN ISLAND, New York, US


Raoul Isidro Images wrote:
Why join contests when the submission is fake?

Desperate photographers are desperate to win at any cost, using lies and deceit.

http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2013/02/whe … ing-photo/

http://2.static.img-dpreview.com/files/news/4884394315/520/prizewinner.jpg?v=1962
This is a marine sniper? Really?
It is an insult to all legitimate and elite marine snipers who are truly qualified to be called snipers, active or otherwise...

.

Are Marine snipers that elite over regular Marines that they would be insulted if an ex-marine(non sniper) was portrayed as one of them?

Also, do you  think there are no old fat Marine Snipers?

Feb 26 13 07:10 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,283
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Raoul Isidro Images wrote:
This is a marine sniper? Really?
It is an insult to all legitimate and elite marine snipers who are truly qualified to be called snipers, active or otherwise...

.

Really you know some people who retire gain a bit of weight and I don't see insulting this Marine is helpful.  As the article pointed out he did not misrepresent his MOS the photographer did.

More to the point it sounds like a serious ethics issue

Feb 26 13 07:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leggy Mountbatten
Posts: 12,560
Kansas City, Missouri, US


Dan K Photography wrote:
Are Marine snipers that elite over regular Marines that they would be insulted if an ex-marine(non sniper) was portrayed as one of them?

Yes. There's also the integrity issue of lying.

Dan K Photography wrote:
Also, do you  think there are no old fat Marine Snipers?

He's not old.

Feb 26 13 07:40 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,524
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Dan K Photography wrote:

Are Marine snipers that elite over regular Marines that they would be insulted if an ex-marine(non sniper) was portrayed as one of them?

I guess you didnt read the article? the person in the photo was upset at being called a marine sniper when he wasn't. its always an insult to legitimate holders of any title/rank/whatever for fraudulent claims to be made.  people with integrity figured this out long ago. I wouldn't claim to have won a Thursday night casual cross-country race in Feb 2002 if I didn't. It would have been an insult to the 4 people that finished ahead of me.  who cares if nobody cares?  You just don't do it.  If you question that someone would be insulted you make it worse by putting them on the spot.  That makes it worse. you just don't force them into having to be a nice guy or say they are insulted.

Feb 26 13 07:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


I would recommend reading the article and Pellegrin's response before casting ethical stones.
Feb 26 13 08:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SME
Posts: 20,854
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


MMDesign wrote:
I would recommend reading the article and Pellegrin's response before casting ethical stones.

I didn't realize he had responded yet.  Went Googling after your post:

http://pdnpulse.com/2013/02/paolo-pelle … graph.html

Feb 26 13 08:33 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JimBobLc
Posts: 199
Martinsburg, West Virginia, US


Snipers could all be considered "elite" as they undergo special training. However they are still just regular people, some with only limited non-military education, and snipers don't remain snipers all their lives, peacetime and the loss of the regimented military lifestyle is sometimes hard on them lol, as it can be on any veteran, which can come out in photos taken after they have been off active duty for a while. Or, you could say they just look like any other person the same age and educational background.
Don't know if this fellow is really a sniper or not, but I have done interviews and shoots of former snipers who were in similar physical condition.

Raoul Isidro Images wrote:
Why join contests when the submission is fake?

Desperate photographers are desperate to win at any cost, using lies and deceit.

http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2013/02/whe … ing-photo/

http://2.static.img-dpreview.com/files/news/4884394315/520/prizewinner.jpg?v=1962
This is a marine sniper? Really?
It is an insult to all legitimate and elite marine snipers who are truly qualified to be called snipers, active or otherwise...

.

Feb 26 13 08:36 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


Sita Mae wrote:

I didn't realize he had responded yet.  Went Googling after your post:

http://pdnpulse.com/2013/02/paolo-pelle … graph.html

It was linked at the bottom of the article, though they didn't make it easy to find.

Feb 26 13 08:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SME
Posts: 20,854
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


MMDesign wrote:

It was linked at the bottom of the article, though they didn't make it easy to find.

Well that's embarrassing.  I totally missed it!

Feb 26 13 08:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,524
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Sita Mae wrote:

I didn't realize he had responded yet.  Went Googling after your post:

http://pdnpulse.com/2013/02/paolo-pelle … graph.html

i read it. he's accused of staging the photo.  He asks someone to pose with a weapon and then denies it's staged? sorry...total BS. and then he goes on to accuse people who arent' journalists for not holding to the highest journalistic standards when criticizing him? sorry doesnt fucking work that way.  its the journalists who have to keep to the standards. and anyone seeing them fail to meet those standards can call into question.  he just made it worse.
if hes going to try and get out of it, he should adhere to the journalistic standard of
'do a fucking better job with words'.

Feb 26 13 08:49 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Nikki Magnusson
Posts: 6,841
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


he's holding a shotgun..

not a sniper rifle..http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/44/f21faa4715f3480285c74d593899a371/l.gif
Feb 26 13 08:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,524
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


Nikki Magnusson wrote:
he's holding a shotgun..

not a sniper rifle..http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/44/f21faa4715f3480285c74d593899a371/l.gif

you have heard of crowdsourcing? this is crowdsniping

Feb 26 13 09:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

i read it. he's accused of staging the photo.  He asks someone to pose with a weapon and then denies it's staged? sorry...total BS. and then he goes on to accuse people who arent' journalists for not holding to the highest journalistic standards when criticizing him? sorry doesnt fucking work that way.  its the journalists who have to keep to the standards. and anyone seeing them fail to meet those standards can call into question.  he just made it worse.
if hes going to try and get out of it, he should adhere to the journalistic standard of
'do a fucking better job with words'.

"This post was written by BagNews Publisher Michael Shaw with RIT Photojournalism professor Loret Steinberg and RIT photojournalism alumnus Shane Keller. (Full disclosure: Steinberg is a consultant to this site.)"

What part of that didn't you get?

Feb 26 13 10:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1,003
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico


The use of the word "sniper" is the less problematic thing with this. I can see that being an honest trivial mistake that can be easily rectified and has not effect to the story.

The bigger issue here is how a story about violence and social turmoil in Crescent includes a photo from a different location without openly acknowledging the fact. That, and the caption plagiarism. The fabrication seems obvious here.
Feb 26 13 10:42 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rfordphotos
Posts: 4,614
Antioch, California, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
i read it. he's accused of staging the photo.  He asks someone to pose with a weapon and then denies it's staged? sorry...total BS. and then he goes on to accuse people who arent' journalists for not holding to the highest journalistic standards when criticizing him? sorry doesnt fucking work that way.  its the journalists who have to keep to the standards. and anyone seeing them fail to meet those standards can call into question.  he just made it worse.
if hes going to try and get out of it, he should adhere to the journalistic standard of
'do a fucking better job with words'.

+1

I read both articles. "Journalism" used to mean something. It doesnt seem to anymore... or at least it doesnt mean what it used to. And it certainly doesnt mean the same thing to me as it does to Paolo Pellegrin.

He may be a Magnum photographer, but stories like this just reinforce the old saying-- "Dont believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see."

He wasnt satisfied with "reporting/recording" the conditions he found in "the Crescent", instead he felt he needed to "enhance" his weak piece with misleading "portraits" mixed in with his "reporting" images.

He got called out on it, and his defense looks lame to me.

Feb 26 13 10:49 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,779
Buena Park, California, US


Raoul Isidro Images wrote:
Why join contests when the submission is fake?

Because some people think others are too stupid to notice.

When the more likely truth is, we trust people to not be asshole liars.

I do not like being around people who I have to assume they are lying because the moment you trust them, they stab you in the face.

Feb 26 13 11:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,779
Buena Park, California, US


Sita Mae wrote:

I didn't realize he had responded yet.  Went Googling after your post:

http://pdnpulse.com/2013/02/paolo-pelle … graph.html

Fair and understandable response. People shooting from the hip. big_smile

Feb 26 13 11:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,524
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


MMDesign wrote:

"This post was written by BagNews Publisher Michael Shaw with RIT Photojournalism professor Loret Steinberg and RIT photojournalism alumnus Shane Keller. (Full disclosure: Steinberg is a consultant to this site.)"

What part of that didn't you get?

I got that bit. Keller was a student at the time. as a student, what more would you have someone do if you feel you were misquoted, staged etc? its not like you have to do more research on the subject. you were fucking there. i dunno why you are defending crap like this. every time it happens it makes journalists look bad.  in this age when even my cat is a blogger, there's more of a need for integrity than ever.

Feb 26 13 11:48 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

I got that bit. Keller was a student at the time. as a student, what more would you have someone do if you feel you were misquoted, staged etc? its not like you have to do more research on the subject. you were fucking there. i dunno why you are defending crap like this. every time it happens it makes journalists look bad.  in this age when even my cat is a blogger, there's more of a need for integrity than ever.

"...then he goes on to accuse people who arent' journalists..."

They are/were journalists, that's the point I was making.

As far as defending it, I don't know enough about it yet to jump to either conclusion - guilt or innocence, I just know he's been doing good work for a long, long time. That said, I wouldn't come in here, holier-than-thou, cursing and screaming about the lack of ethics from some mountain top, accusing someone when I don't know all of the facts.

Feb 26 13 12:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leonard Gee Photography
Posts: 16,081
Sacramento, California, US


Raoul Isidro Images wrote:
Why join contests when the submission is fake?

Desperate photographers are desperate to win at any cost, using lies and deceit.

He didn't "consider" his work as "fake". There have been lots of journalists who created what they thought were "illustrations" of what was happening.

The question of staging shots has always been a huge issue with photojournalism. Having done assignments for magazine, it's an issue with which a photographer has to be very aware. Eugene Smith and other classic journalists had to deal with it.

Unfortunately, playing loose with facts is not a good habit and there are many points in the story which paint the photographer in a very bad light. Sad for Magnum.

Feb 26 13 12:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MKPhoto
Posts: 5,664
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


From the article

".. but when the facts show the photo wasn’t taken where it was claimed to be taken and when the subject of the photo isn’t who the photographer says he is..."

My take on some things is maybe superficial and literal, but sorry, sometimes facts are facts and as such indefensible.

If a student submitted work with such misrepresentation of facts, as part of a project, would immediately get an F and perhaps suffer further consequences.

And BTW what is so special about this image, context or no context?
Feb 26 13 12:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


MKPhoto wrote:
From the article

".. but when the facts show the photo wasn’t taken where it was claimed to be taken and when the subject of the photo isn’t who the photographer says he is..."

My take on some things is maybe superficial and literal, but sorry, sometimes facts are facts and as such indefensible.

So.
If a student submitted such an image as part of a project, would immediately get an F and perhaps suffer further consequences.

Did you read the photographer's response? It was taken where he said it was. The other is obviously open for interpretation.

Feb 26 13 12:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MKPhoto
Posts: 5,664
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


MMDesign wrote:

Did you read the photographer's response? It was taken where he said it was. The other is obviously open for interpretation.

It was taken in the basement in a different neighbourhood, wasn't it. Might as well been a district in Detroit.

Feb 26 13 12:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MKPhoto
Posts: 5,664
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


.
Feb 26 13 12:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leonard Gee Photography
Posts: 16,081
Sacramento, California, US


MMDesign wrote:
Did you read the photographer's response? It was taken where he said it was. The other is obviously open for interpretation.

And the response to the jabs and the photographer's response:

http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2013/02/bag … -pictures/

"What is essential to understand about our role is that we are critics, not reporters. That may be confusing to some because there are not a lot of  practicing visual news or, especially, news photo critics around. But our role and what we do — deemed essential by esteemed colleagues from visual media to academia — is no different from what art critics or television critics or theater critics or film critics do. (I should add, when a film critic perceives a flaw or an inconsistency, he or she doesn’t call up the writer or director for an explanation or an opportunity for rebuttal, he or she deconstructs the content as meticulously and conscientiously as he or she can.) What I, and my contributors do, just like other critics covering other forms of media, is analyze the manifest representation of something expressive, often social or political in nature just like news photography, and we critique it for context, for its informational value and veracity, and for what it purports to do versus what it actually does.

To that extent, what we’re concerned with at BagNews is not the integrity of a person but the integrity of the image and as well as the titles, captions and any other attendent information presented in the elaboration or justification of that imagery. Because Mr. Pellegrin did gain the opportunity to speak to the accuracy of his imagery and the supporting captions and titles, and today’s a new day, we’re interested now in how multiple photo news sites, including NPPA, PDN and NYT Lens blog, generated a fresh collection of imagery and supportive text yesterday in response to our critique."

Feb 26 13 12:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


MKPhoto wrote:

It was taken in the basement in a different neighbourhood, wasn't it. Might as well been a district in Detroit.

Since he didn't know exactly where there were when it was shot, he labeled it Rochester, not the area whose name I can't think of at the moment.

Feb 26 13 12:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MKPhoto
Posts: 5,664
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


MMDesign wrote:
Since he didn't know exactly where there were when it was shot, he labeled it Rochester, not the area whose name I can't think of at the moment.

So he labelled it what he wanted to label it, didn't he?

I used to be a college prof (not photography...). This level of "inconsistency" that can not be claimed as accident,  in a submitted report is an F. Period.

Feb 26 13 12:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1,003
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico


MMDesign wrote:

Since he didn't know exactly where there were when it was shot, he labeled it Rochester, not the area whose name I can't think of at the moment.

"he didn't know"? Seriously? Is that supposed to absolve him?!

His response actually makes him look worse.

Feb 26 13 01:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AVD AlphaDuctions
Posts: 10,524
Gatineau, Quebec, Canada


4 R D wrote:

"he didn't know"? Seriously? Is that supposed to absolve him?!

His response actually makes him look worse.

"I'm standing here on the historic steps of the Imperial Palace in...."
"oh...wait hang on I've got a correction to make"
"I'm told it's the Lincoln Memorial. really no big deal. People need to get over themselves. I didn't know exactly where I was..."

Feb 26 13 01:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
rfordphotos
Posts: 4,614
Antioch, California, US


You either report facts- the same facts anyone would find in the same place and time, or you create fiction.

Nothing wrong with fiction, you can convey powerful messages with fictional stories.

Mixing them, under the guise of reporting the facts, is the issue for me.
Feb 26 13 01:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MKPhoto
Posts: 5,664
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


I am wondering what are the thoughts of  photographers who reported from places  where they had to go into harms way to get the picture.
Feb 26 13 02:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MMDesign
Posts: 18,647
Louisville, Kentucky, US


MKPhoto wrote:
I am wondering what are the thoughts of  photographers who reported from places  where they had to go into harms way to get the picture.

Pellegrin has, I believe, shot in a number of those places as well.

After reading more about it, I tend to find this, from aphotoeditor, sums it up pretty well.

"If there’s anything to be outraged about, it’s that one of photojournalism’s brightest stars is sloppy and thinks it’s not a big deal."

Feb 26 13 02:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Zack Zoll
Posts: 2,271
Glens Falls, New York, US


The problem, in my mind, isn't that this happened.  The problem is the response. Lemme' explain that.

This is a photo contest - not a journalistic article.  Granted it's a contest held by a journalistic organization, but it is at heart a photo contest.  That is to say, a contest where the winner is selected by whoever the juror, committee, voting public, etc. thinks is the best individual image.

How much more respect would you have for Pellegrin if his response to this was along the lines of, "Yeah, it's the wrong caption.  I set that up with a guy who isn't even a Marine, but another photographer.  Don't you all feel really stupid for picking my photo the best, based only on the fake story behind it and not the quality of the actual photo?"?  I'd have a LOT more respect for the guy if he called everyone out for being hypocritical bleeding hearts, and said, 'Screw you, I'm keeping the award.'

After all, that's what happened.  People (including this very forum) are outraged because the photo isn't what he said it was.  But it doesn't matter.  It's a photo contest - all that matters is what the photo looks like.  And it's pretty mediocre, so you can't tell me that there wasn't at least a little influence of the caption on how the actual photo was rated.

Instead, he goes back on his word, apologizes, will probably lose the award, and frankly looks like an idiot.

All because he couldn't stick to his guns.
Feb 26 13 05:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MichaelClements
Posts: 1,735
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


My first thought... Wow. Really. What a shitty photograph.
Feb 26 13 06:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HarryL
Posts: 1,559
Chicago, Illinois, US


I always doubted on war photography....any way nothing new with this photo
Feb 26 13 07:03 pm  Link  Quote 
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