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Photographer
Aaron - photographer
Posts: 35
London, England, United Kingdom


I did a search and didn't see anything in the archives.  I find it hard to believe this topic hasn't come up before... or perhaps i didn't use the correct search terms. Or, if my wife is correct, my "man eyes" failed me again.

Anyway... I am throwing this out there because i'm at odds with this particular subject and would like some different perspectives. I have been contacted from time to time by a model soliciting me to pay her for a shoot then provide her images for her portfolio, which i am loath to do.  But on the other hand, i have contacted models, paid them AND given them images.  Of course, i've had the odd model or two want 20 or 30 edited images after i've already paid and given them a few.

But i'm curious as to how others manage this.  And i would love to hear from a model's perspective as well...  When you pay a model for a shoot (solicited by either party), do you provide images? If so, how many? Do you put conditions on their usage?
Feb 26 13 09:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Edward Shaw Photography
Posts: 316
Birmingham, England, United Kingdom


It's all negotiable as part of whatever overall agreement you make.
If you are providing images, I'd expect to pay them less or have them pay you more.
Feb 26 13 09:29 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Christinare
Posts: 116
Baton Rouge, Louisiana, US


I think if you're paying, then you're completely within your rights to not provide images. I think what is commonly done is the photographer will let the model have a scaled down watermarked image for her online portfolio (or sites like this) if you both agree to that. It's up to you, really.

Disclaimer: Not very experienced or a professional :b
Feb 26 13 09:32 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BlueMoonPics
Posts: 3,980
New York, New York, US


I've paid for group shoots and still provided the models with some images.  Most other photographers didn't.  It made me stand out and get more of my name and work out there.  Some of those models even worked with me again on a TF basis.

I think it's really up to you what you want to do.
Feb 26 13 09:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Wishard
Posts: 1,896
Fallbrook, California, US


Everything is negotiable... smile

You have some nice work and I'm not a bit surprised by the fact that models may want images from you after a shoot.

In general, I offer images(High res/low res/choices) for trade shoots as compensation for working with me. If I was paying someone's rates, I would expect that the compensation would already be handled. I may, at my option, give images that I select as a friendly gesture but only low res. Although, images might be a bartering tool to get a lower rate for shooting a model by including images as part of the deal.
Feb 26 13 10:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
j3_photo
Posts: 19,849
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


It's all negotiable as said but...films and magazines don't have to give anything as they've paid the talent for their services with money.  Some productions do give a few images or clips out of kindness. 

Up to you.
Feb 26 13 10:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Red Sky Photography
Posts: 3,253
Germantown, Maryland, US


No model I've hired has asked for images after the shoot. Every model I shoot gets images. Some models use them, some don't. Every model has thanked me for the images.

You should discuss compensation before the shoot, and follow through on whatever agreement you make. Nothing else required.
Feb 26 13 10:37 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JAE
Posts: 2,083
West Chester, Pennsylvania, US


Everything can be negotiated.  If a model demands full rates + images up front I wouldn't shoot with them.  I see images given after a paid shoot as a courtesy, not a requirement.  Unless there was another agreement agreed upon when setting up the shoot.
Feb 26 13 10:39 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
terrysphotocountry
Posts: 4,048
Rochester, New York, US


Of course, i've had the odd model or two want 20 or 30 edited images after i've already paid and given them a few.  Then you can just say you were already paid. Now I will provide you with 20 to 30 edited images in place of your pay or just provide a couple of edited images as a good qesture! This is your call.
Feb 26 13 10:43 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 8,427
Los Angeles, California, US


I guess it depends on how nice a guy you want to be.

KM
Feb 26 13 10:46 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DavidL
Posts: 32
Adamsville, Pennsylvania, US


I am quite clear about this.  I always pay the model something, even a beginner, to create a good environment to work in.  I always give beginners pictures, even if they are not very successful, so that they can improve.  And if they are really bad, it might give them a hint not to pursue a career in modelling.

I expect models to acknowledge that if I pay a proper fee they have no right to pictures, and if they start pushing I resist the request.
But ultimately I take pictures as a hobby, and if the model would like pictures I am flattered and provide them.

I should also say that in more than 45 years of photographing girls I have only had two or three that I have not been genuinely fond of by the end of the shoot, and this makes me pleased if they are pleased by the pictures I give them.
Feb 26 13 10:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Hi_Spade Photography
Posts: 897
Darlington, South Carolina, US


That makes no kind of sense to me. That's like buying a car from a car dealer and telling them they can keep it and drive it. I think I'm a nice guy but when it comes to someone trying to f@*k me over then thats where s%#t will hit the fan.
Feb 26 13 10:55 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DavidL
Posts: 32
Adamsville, Pennsylvania, US


We are all entitled to our own approach, and I will not prolong this, but unlike buying a car, usually, photographing a model is an artistic collaboration.  And pretty much, it costs nothing to share the product.  So, if it makes the model pleased, why not?
Feb 26 13 10:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1,004
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico


aaron lassman wrote:
When you pay a model for a shoot (solicited by either party), do you provide images? If so, how many? Do you put conditions on their usage?

No. If I am prompted to provide images, the rate has to be negotiated.

Feb 26 13 11:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leonard Gee Photography
Posts: 16,081
Sacramento, California, US


aaron lassman wrote:
When you pay a model for a shoot (solicited by either party), do you provide images? If so, how many?

When paying a model, I already have a finished image for the client. The model gets a low-res, tearsheet copy. It's just "image size", "save as". No extra work. End of story.

Some internet models live in a place called dreamland.

If they ask for more, they pay the normal fee for a finished image. If they have worked with me previously and tested, they get a discount. But I've never given out more than one or two images; anything more is silly and way too much work.

Feb 26 13 11:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Aaron - photographer
Posts: 35
London, England, United Kingdom


I sure do appreciate the input.  One of the things i have indeed neglected to do is regularly ask about it before hand. 

Normally for a TF, I contract for 5 images - 5 highres images and 5web-ready of the same images- but almost always give between 6 and 10 ~ especially if the model didn't choose one of the ones that i personally really liked. 

I paid a model for a shoot and offered 3 or 4 images of her choice, because she was really a blast to work with.  she chose her four, then wanted nearly 30 more fully edited for free.  When i resisted, i got a lot (!!) of drama.  It didn't end nicely, which i feel is really unfortunate.

Since then, i have shot strictly TF and have not outright hired another model, really just to avoid the issue.  But i have a few shoots i'm paying for on the books coming up.. so... i do appreciate all the advise.

I will certainly make a point to talk about this with my models pre-shoot from here on out.
Feb 26 13 11:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
curiosa des yeux
Posts: 1,457
Seattle, Washington, US


I mostly shoot for trade, so it hasn't come up often. My motivation when I have hired a model is usually that I want to help a traveling model out with expenses. I like traveling as well, and I really appreciate when others pay even modest amounts to work with me while I'm on the road. Just having enough to cover an extra night of hotel is always welcome. I believe what goes around comes around, so when I can I try to do for models what I would hope for myself during travels.

With that in mind, I do let models I've paid use any images I have for them, but I do not go out of my way to provide extra images beyond those that I chose myself. I have never been asked to either, so it just hasn't been an issue. I think that if I was asked for one or two extra shots, I'd be likely to provide them. If a paid model asked me for any more than that, I don't believe that I would be willing to do so.
Feb 26 13 11:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,215
Salem, Oregon, US


this is one of the more popular topics on mayhem.

there are no rules. do what you want.

for my part when i pay a model i normally have them sign a full release (istockphoto in my case), they do what i want (within their limits) and i only give them the images i retouch for myself.
Feb 26 13 11:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tim Griffiths
Posts: 368
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


I'm not sure it's sensible to agree images and cash, if only because if it doesn't go well you will find yourself having paid for an unproductive shoot (blame irrelevant) and facing x number of hours editing images you don't like for nothing.
That's why I wouldn't do it, anyway.
Sharing them afterwards because you feel like it is different.
Feb 26 13 12:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,320
London, England, United Kingdom


aaron lassman wrote:
But i'm curious as to how others manage this.  And i would love to hear from a model's perspective as well...  When you pay a model for a shoot (solicited by either party), do you provide images? If so, how many? Do you put conditions on their usage?

Getting images from paid shoot is the norm for me.
How many varies from photographer to photographer.
I do not expect images from paid shoots and will not refuse to work with a photographer because they do not want to give me images.
If a photographer wants to negotiate a rate that includes photos i will consider it but i WILL expect to get those photos since they are now being included as part of the pay.
I don't solicit photographers directly for work that is paid in money and images but i don't see a problem with it, if you don't like the fee, don't hire them.

Feb 26 13 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 6,811
New York, New York, US


Tim Griffiths wrote:
I'm not sure it's sensible to agree images and cash, if only because if it doesn't go well you will find yourself having paid for an unproductive shoot (blame irrelevant) and facing x number of hours editing images you don't like for nothing.
That's why I wouldn't do it, anyway.
Sharing them afterwards because you feel like it is different.

+1  I don't mind sharing but I am not going above the amount I would edit for use. These days I refuse to edit more than 5 unless I am really really bored!

Feb 26 13 12:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Larry Quick
Posts: 117
Royal Palm Beach, Florida, US


I usually give the models I pay some edited photos, it makes for a great working relationship and they usually will give me a better deal if I offer the photos.
Feb 26 13 12:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
me voy
Posts: 982
Amherst, Massachusetts, US


Seems like the majority of photographers here on MM enjoy bringing the whole industry down. If I am paying a model, she/he gets nothing for free.
Feb 26 13 01:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Project4145
Posts: 338
Phoenix, Arizona, US


Red Sky Photography wrote:
No model I've hired has asked for images after the shoot. Every model I shoot gets images.

Same here.  But I'm just here to network and try to use what I've shot to get more work. 

In that sense an image I shot on a model's port is much more useful than the same image on mine.  It will get much more traffic on hers.

Feb 26 13 01:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gary Melton
Posts: 6,338
Dallas, Texas, US


As everyone is saying - it's all negotiable...but let me be more specific to demonstrate why there is nothing wrong with it.

Let's say you run across a model you want to shoot...you are fully expecting to pay her to model for you.

-  You offer $75/hour.

-  She counters with $90/hour plus she wants some photos from the shoot.

-  You counter back with something like "...photos would amount to compensation...how about $80/hour plus a few edited photos for you?".

-  She comes back with "works for me - what dates/times were you thinking about".


See - everything is negotiable!  smile
Feb 26 13 01:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1,004
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico


Project4145 wrote:

In that sense an image I shot on a model's port is much more useful than the same image on mine.  It will get much more traffic on hers.

Let us extrapolate that logic then. Let us assume you pay a model and give her pictures but she does not upload them to her port because it is full of superior work. Would you pay her an extra sum just for having her open a slot for your picture and "enjoy" the traffic?

I am sure many models would be open to do that. smile

Feb 26 13 01:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1,004
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico


Gary Melton wrote:
As everyone is saying - it's all negotiable...but let me be more specific to demonstrate why there is nothing wrong with it.

Let's say you run across a model you want to shoot...you are fully expecting to pay her to model for you.

-  You offer $75/hour.

-  She counters with $90/hour plus she wants some photos from the shoot.

-  You counter back with something like "...photos would amount to compensation...how about $80/hour plus a few edited photos for you?".

-  She comes back with "works for me - what dates/times were you thinking about".


See - everything is negotiable!  smile

So your work is worth a couple of bucks per picture?

Feb 26 13 01:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gary Melton
Posts: 6,338
Dallas, Texas, US


me voy wrote:
Seems like the majority of photographers here on MM enjoy bringing the whole industry down. If I am paying a model, she/he gets nothing for free.

But what if she will accept a lower modeling fee in exchange for a few photos?

That's not free...that's saving YOU money...that's money that gets to stay in YOUR pocket.

As I've said many times - there are tens of thousands of women out there who will model for you...if you don't get the deal you want with one, move along to the next one.

Feb 26 13 01:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Project4145
Posts: 338
Phoenix, Arizona, US


4 R D wrote:

Let us extrapolate that logic then. Let us assume you pay a model and give her pictures but she does not upload them to her port because it is full of superior work. Would you pay her an extra sum just for having her open a slot for your picture and "enjoy" the traffic?

I am sure many models would be open to do that. smile

At that point she would be advertising as a side business and her port would suffer for it - which would make her less marketable.  I'm not sure that many models would do that as it would not be in their best interest in the long run. 

But to answer your question, of course I would if the price were right.

Feb 26 13 01:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wolfy4u
Posts: 1,080
Grand Junction, Colorado, US


The "Model Mayhem' standard is that images are always provided for TF shoots and not for paid (Model) shoots. Many photographers provide paid models a few low-res images as a courtesy, but also for any attention they might get from her portfolio.
One thing I often do with a highly talented model who only accepts paid shoots is offer 1/2 price in  addition to some combination of photo files.
Feb 26 13 01:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1,004
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico


Project4145 wrote:

At that point she would be advertising as a side business and her port would suffer for it - which would make her less marketable.  I'm not sure that many models would do that as it would not be in their best interest in the long run. 

But to answer your question, of course I would if the price were right.

Maybe you should pay her VIP account too so she can feature more of your photos.

Seriously, you overestimate the value of that kind of exposure.

Feb 26 13 02:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gary Melton
Posts: 6,338
Dallas, Texas, US


Gary Melton wrote:
As everyone is saying - it's all negotiable...but let me be more specific to demonstrate why there is nothing wrong with it.

Let's say you run across a model you want to shoot...you are fully expecting to pay her to model for you.

-  You offer $75/hour.

-  She counters with $90/hour plus she wants some photos from the shoot.

-  You counter back with something like "...photos would amount to compensation...how about $80/hour plus a few edited photos for you?".

-  She comes back with "works for me - what dates/times were you thinking about".


See - everything is negotiable!  smile
4 R D wrote:
So your work is worth a couple of bucks per picture?

I was just throwing out some figures for demonstration.

Here's another example:

-  Let's say a model quotes you $100/hour.

-  You counter with 2 photos total compensation to her for 2 hours modeling (because you feel your photos are worth $100/each).

-  If you're good enough (and they feel photos from you would have that much value for them), some models might agree to that deal...but most on MM would not.

Negotiation is something that seems to be very misunderstood on MM...negotiation is about finding a balance concerning who gets paid and how much - a balance where both parties are reasonably happy.

If you can't strike a satisfactory deal with one model, then move on to the next one.  (The model is responsible for striking a deal that he/she is satisfied with.)

Feb 26 13 02:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Project4145
Posts: 338
Phoenix, Arizona, US


4 R D wrote:
Maybe you should pay her VIP account too so she can feature more of your photos.

Seriously, you overestimate the value of that kind of exposure.

lol.  Whatever.  I think you overestimate the value of my opinion.  It makes no difference whatsoever to the way you live and work.

Feb 26 13 02:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1,420
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


me voy wrote:
Seems like the majority of photographers here on MM enjoy bringing the whole industry down. If I am paying a model, she/he gets nothing for free.

It depends on the purpose of the shoot.  If I am shooting solely for my portfolio because its a look/concept I want to add then I have no issue sharing a few images of MY Choosing - the ones already going in my portfolio where the world can see them anyway.  I'm not going to refuse a model to use that image in her portfolio if she asks - that's just petty.

If I have another purpose for the images, perhaps to sell as stock, show later in a gallery or perhaps hope to publish one day in a book or magazine then no, the model will not see a copy. 

And if it's for a paying client then it is up to them to determine if or when it can be shared with the team, usually after it is made public by the client.

When I pay the delivery of images to the model is on my timeline, and could take months if I want it to.

Feb 26 13 02:07 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 34,731
San Francisco, California, US


One of the reasons that I pay a model is so that I am not obligated to give her images.  I often do it anyhow, but it is my choice, not hers.
Feb 26 13 02:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1,004
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico


Project4145 wrote:

lol.  Whatever.  I think you overestimate the value of my opinion.  It makes no difference whatsoever to the way you live and work.

Actually, it does. Because of guys like you even girls with mediocre looks or no experience go straight to "paid assignments only" and who can blame them? They are getting money AND pictures.

Feb 26 13 02:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1,004
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico


Gary Melton wrote:

Gary Melton wrote:
As everyone is saying - it's all negotiable...but let me be more specific to demonstrate why there is nothing wrong with it.

Let's say you run across a model you want to shoot...you are fully expecting to pay her to model for you.

-  You offer $75/hour.

-  She counters with $90/hour plus she wants some photos from the shoot.

-  You counter back with something like "...photos would amount to compensation...how about $80/hour plus a few edited photos for you?".

-  She comes back with "works for me - what dates/times were you thinking about".


See - everything is negotiable!  smile

I was just throwing out some figures for demonstration.

Here's another example:

-  Let's say a model quotes you $100/hour.

-  You counter with 2 photos total compensation to her for 2 hours modeling (because you feel your photos are worth $100/each).

-  If you're good enough (and they feel photos from you would have that much value for them), some models might agree to that deal...but most on MM would not.

Negotiation is something that seems to be very misunderstood on MM...negotiation is about finding a balance concerning who gets paid and how much - a balance where both parties are reasonably happy.

If you can't strike a satisfactory deal with one model, then move on to the next one.  (The model is responsible for striking a deal that he/she is satisfied with.)

I understand where you are coming from and I actually have made in the past that kind of negotiation. Your first example sounded like a bad deal though! big_smile

Feb 26 13 02:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Project4145
Posts: 338
Phoenix, Arizona, US


4 R D wrote:
Actually, it does. Because of guys like you even girls with mediocre looks or no experience go straight to "paid assignments only" and who can blame them? They are getting money AND pictures.

I'm affecting the model business in Mexico City?  Woo Hoo!  I have more influence than I thought! 

Seriously.  If I, a lowly hobbyist like yourself (from your profile), can shoot an image that a model like Carlotta Champagne - http://www.modelmayhem.com/3155 - will voluntarily post in her MM gallery, I think it gets me some traffic I would have never gotten on my own.  Her profile gets more traffic in a day than mine will get all year.  If people like it they will navigate to mine, because she was nice enough to also credit the photo, and my work will get a look that it wouldn't have gotten otherwise. 

All of that beside the fact that I learned a lot shooting with her and I got images that I couldn't have gotten shooting 100 TFP / cell phone models.  In one afternoon I got a dozen shots that make me look better than I am and also a heck of a lot of extra MM exposure.  It's worth it to me.  But that's just me.  I'm not here to tell anyone else how to make their choices.

Feb 26 13 02:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Gary Melton
Posts: 6,338
Dallas, Texas, US


4 R D wrote:
I understand where you are coming from and I actually have made in the past that kind of negotiation. Your first example sounded like a bad deal though! big_smile

...actually, I did leave out one part of the first example: the shoot was to last 60 straight hours - so $10/hour savings would have equaled $600.  Four photos to the model in consideration of the $10/hour discount equals a value of $150/photo.

big_smile big_smile big_smile

Feb 26 13 02:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Project4145
Posts: 338
Phoenix, Arizona, US


4 R D wrote:
Because of guys like you even girls with mediocre looks or no experience go straight to "paid assignments only" and who can blame them? They are getting money AND pictures.

Also, I don't pay models with mediocre looks or no experience.

I agree with you that there are a lot of those profiles on MM but look at how often, if ever, they update.  They don't.  Those profiles usually dry up.

Feb 26 13 02:30 pm  Link  Quote 
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