Photographer
L o n d o n F o g
Posts: 7497
London, England, United Kingdom
If I am paying a model then she will receive around 5, maybe 10 (max) fully edited and re-touched images.
I can never understand why a photographer has to take a high moral stance 'ooh, i never provide images for a paid shoot' - yeah my ass!
As far as I'm concerned, it's all about building relationships and earning a good reputation, and not being an asshole about it!
Photographer
Voy
Posts: 1594
Phoenix, Arizona, US
London Fog wrote:
If I am paying a model then she will receive around 5, maybe 10 (max) fully edited and re-touched images.
I can never understand why a photographer has to take a high moral stance 'ooh, i never provide images for a paid shoot' - yeah my ass!
As far as I'm concerned, it's all about building relationships and earning a good reputation, and not being an asshole about it! Building relationships and reputation do not pay the bills. Every professional knows that. Maybe that is the problem: MM is full of Non-Professionals.
Photographer
Aaron - photographer
Posts: 35
Falls Church, Virginia, US
London Fog wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, it's all about building relationships and earning a good reputation, and not being an asshole about it! It is about relationships and in this business, reputation is everything. But sometimes I feel like that story... if you give a mouse a cookie, it's gonna want a glass of milk.
I guess i was mostly concerned from my previous experience with that model that wanted nearly 30 images. When i refused, she got very rude... i cancelled our next scheduled shoot and she got downright abusive. I've been on MM for 4 years and i have had a lot of great shoots from it. But i have had several models try to get more than we originally agreed to.
I see there are some very strong opinions on the subject. this has been enlightening for me.
Photographer
Project4145
Posts: 338
Phoenix, Arizona, US
I guess with MM you have to sift the responses and gauge them according to the individual. What is good for me would be horrible for someone else because we have completely different reasons for being here.
If I happen to be a semi-competent photographer looking to pick up a little local boudoir work I'm going to use this site in a completely different way than a working pro or a brand new hobbyist.
We all use the site to try to improve our photographic situation but we're all in different places trying to accomplish different things. Debates about the "right way" to approach using this site are meaningless without a common perspective. Which of course we don't have.
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1141
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico
Project4145 wrote:
I'm affecting the model business in Mexico City? Woo Hoo! I have more influence than I thought!
Seriously. If I, a lowly hobbyist like yourself (from your profile), can shoot an image that a model like Carlotta Champagne - https://www.modelmayhem.com/3155 - will voluntarily post in her MM gallery, I think it gets me some traffic I would have never gotten on my own. Her profile gets more traffic in a day than mine will get all year. If people like it they will navigate to mine, because she was nice enough to also credit the photo, and my work will get a look that it wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
All of that beside the fact that I learned a lot shooting with her and I got images that I couldn't have gotten shooting 100 TFP / cell phone models. In one afternoon I got a dozen shots that make me look better than I am and also a heck of a lot of extra MM exposure. It's worth it to me. But that's just me. I'm not here to tell anyone else how to make their choices. Three things:
1.- I said "because of guys like you" not "because of you", but thanks for that little peek at your ego.
2.- What benefit has brought you your picture in Carlotta's port? Who has hired you after looking at it? Who has traded with you after looking at it? Random visits to your port and photo views alone are worthless. The only true benefit I see from that exposure is that any model can confirm that Carlotta appreciates your work and even might provide a reference if asked. Is that small ego boost worth giving away your photos? Not for me. Different values, I guess.
3.- I am not a "lowly hobbyist". Just a hobbyist. 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Obviously your work as a photographer has value when and if you choose to give it away is up to you. In general a model should not expect to get images just because they are part of them but individuals may have workd out different arrangements.
Photographer
CameraSight
Posts: 1126
Roselle Park, New Jersey, US
Edward Shaw Photography wrote:
It's all negotiable as part of whatever overall agreement you make.
If you are providing images, I'd expect to pay them less or have them pay you more. +1
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18763
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium
I think the standard procedure for a paid shoot is that you don't receive images afterwards (because images are a form of "payment" as well).
However, I can also say without a shadow of a doubt that virtually any model who did a paid shoot with you will be very thankful if you give her a couple of pictures anyway. is it a must? no. is it a plus? definitely. and it can have benefits for you as well (more exposure to the group you want to target, but also a happier model that might work with you again at a lower rate or TF)
so it's entirely up to you, but discuss these things before the shoot, not afterwards...
Photographer
L o n d o n F o g
Posts: 7497
London, England, United Kingdom
Anna Adrielle wrote:
I think the standard procedure for a paid shoot is that you don't receive images afterwards (because images are a form of "payment" as well).
However, I can also say without a shadow of a doubt that virtually any model who did a paid shoot with you will be very thankful if you give her a couple of pictures anyway. is it a must? no. is it a plus? definitely. and it doesn't hurt for your exposure either...
so it's entirely up to you, but discuss these things before the shoot, not afterwards... Absolutely right on! I like to keep the models happy, so providing with them with a few images is no big deal, obviously if they started asking for an unreasonable amount then forget it!
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1141
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico
London Fog wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, it's all about building relationships and earning a good reputation, and not being an asshole about it! I never understood this argument. A good relationship is based in transparency, trust, respect, honoring your commitments. You do not need to buy off people with freebies. That will only earn you the reputation of a doormat person.
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18763
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium
London Fog wrote:
Absolutely right on! I like to keep the models happy, so providing with them with a few images is no big deal, obviously if they started asking for an unreasonable amount then forget it! yes, I meant to add that!
OP, I think a couple of images is reasonable. 30 is ridiculous by pretty much any standard, and I think you did the right thing by not going through with that shoot.
Photographer
Azimuth Arts
Posts: 1490
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Project4145 wrote:
lol. Whatever. I think you overestimate the value of my opinion. It makes no difference whatsoever to the way you live and work. 4 R D wrote:
Actually, it does. Because of guys like you even girls with mediocre looks or no experience go straight to "paid assignments only" and who can blame them? They are getting money AND pictures. If I am paying a model it's because I like her look enough to warrant the cash outlay. I am not going to pay a mediocre model, and if the shots turned out mediocre she is not going to see any of them since they won't be going in my portfolio.
Why do you care if mediocre models want money - why are you shooting them if you think they aren't good enough? When I shoot trade I want to shoot models I think have potential, not that I think are just below par.
Just my $0.02.
Photographer
Project4145
Posts: 338
Phoenix, Arizona, US
4 R D wrote:
1.- I said "because of guys like you" not "because of you", but thanks for that little peek at your ego.
2.- What benefit has brought you your picture in Carlotta's port? Who has hired you after looking at it? Who has traded with you after looking at it? Random visits to your port and photo views alone are worthless. The only true benefit I see from that exposure is that any model can confirm that Carlotta appreciates your work and even might provide a reference if asked. Is that small ego boost worth giving away your photos? Not for me. Different values, I guess.
3.- I am not a "lowly hobbyist". Just a hobbyist. 1.I have no ego but it was a good jab. Touche'.
2.Actually more than you might imagine. The bottom line is, the models I shoot here do wonders for me with the private sector. If that shot in Carlotta's gallery gets me two or three other MM shoots (and it already has) it was well worth it. For me.
Random visits to my profile are worthless, I'll grant that. But if only 10% are productive I'm still ahead.
The point is, I'm not shooting MM models to get more MM model business, per se. I'm shooting them to populate a gallery to get work in my local market from private clients. The MM model shoots just give me something I can show publicly to private clients so they can see the quality of work I am capable of producing. None of my private clients have any interest in being in a public gallery to help me promote photography.
3.Yeah, I thought about that when I wrote it. Nice catch.
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 6209
San Diego, California, US
***patiently waits for a Model Mayhem genius to proclaim that not only do they pay full rate and give images; but they also PAY the model to put the photos in her port for added "exposure".*** 
Photographer
Mike Adams Photos
Posts: 1217
Cleveland, Ohio, US
GPS Studio Services wrote:
One of the reasons that I pay a model is so that I am not obligated to give her images. I often do it anyhow, but it is my choice, not hers. +1 Sums it up for me too.
Photographer
CameraSight
Posts: 1126
Roselle Park, New Jersey, US
GPS Studio Services wrote:
One of the reasons that I pay a model is so that I am not obligated to give her images. I often do it anyhow, but it is my choice, not hers. +2
Good point
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1141
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico
Azimuth Arts wrote:
If I am paying a model it's because I like her look enough to warrant the cash outlay. I am not going to pay a mediocre model, and if the shots turned out mediocre she is not going to see any of them since they won't be going in my portfolio.
Why do you care if mediocre models want money - why are you shooting them if you think they aren't good enough? When I shoot trade I want to shoot models I think have potential, not that I think are just below par.
Just my $0.02. I would shoot mediocre models to test and hone certain skills I need to improve and where their level of proficiency is not important. Not every shoot is intended to be a final product.
Photographer
4 R D
Posts: 1141
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico
Project4145 wrote:
1.I have no ego but it was a good jab. Touche'.
2.Actually more than you might imagine. The bottom line is, the models I shoot here do wonders for me with the private sector. If that shot in Carlotta's gallery gets me two or three other MM shoots (and it already has) it was well worth it. For me.
Random visits to my profile are worthless, I'll grant that. But if only 10% are productive I'm still ahead.
The point is, I'm not shooting MM models to get more MM model business, per se. I'm shooting them to populate a gallery to get work in my local market from private clients. The MM model shoots just give me something I can show publicly to private clients so they can see the quality of work I am capable of producing. None of my private clients have any interest in being in a public gallery to help me promote photography.
3.Yeah, I thought about that when I wrote it. Nice catch. I see. You can go to a client prospect and tell him: "Look, if Carlotta Champagne thinks I am good enough for her port then I must be doing something right". It is a form of endorsement. I have my doubts of its efficiency but nevertheless I wish you success with that strategy, sincerely.
Photographer
DCP Glamour
Posts: 629
Dunwoody, Georgia, US
Just jumping in here without reading most of the previous comments.
Maybe you can do a two-tiered pricing plan. If they don't want images from the shoot, you'll pay them $X. If they want images, pay them $X - 20% and a specified number of photos.
Disclaimer: I've yet to pay a model, but if/when I do I'll probably give her two or three web-sized photos from the shoot just to be nice. If she wanted more than that, or full-resolution files, I'd expect to pay less.
Photographer
Project4145
Posts: 338
Phoenix, Arizona, US
4 R D wrote:
I see. You can go to a client prospect and tell him: "Look, if Carlotta Champagne thinks I am good enough for her port then I must be doing something right". It is a form of endorsement. I have my doubts of its efficiency but nevertheless I wish you success with that strategy, sincerely. Really? I think you miss the point on purpose now. You seem smarter than that.
Nobody that I will ever shoot professionally knows, or cares, who Carlotta is. They only care that it is an attractive shot of a lovely woman. And I shot it. They therefore feel comfortable with my level of competence.
And I think you understand that.
Photographer
TerrysPhotocountry
Posts: 4649
Rochester, New York, US
aaron lassman wrote:
I sure do appreciate the input. One of the things i have indeed neglected to do is regularly ask about it before hand.
Normally for a TF, I contract for 5 images - 5 highres images and 5web-ready of the same images- but almost always give between 6 and 10 ~ especially if the model didn't choose one of the ones that i personally really liked.
I paid a model for a shoot and offered 3 or 4 images of her choice, because she was really a blast to work with. she chose her four, then wanted nearly 30 more fully edited for free. When i resisted, i got a lot (!!) of drama. It didn't end nicely, which i feel is really unfortunate.
Since then, i have shot strictly TF and have not outright hired another model, really just to avoid the issue. But i have a few shoots i'm paying for on the books coming up.. so... i do appreciate all the advise.
I will certainly make a point to talk about this with my models pre-shoot from here on out. Now you are thinking! `
Photographer
Nico Simon Princely
Posts: 1972
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
As said over and over again and again... It's all negotiable. I see some models also stating they will only shoot if you give them content for their website or give them joint copyright and still want to be paid...lol
I'll pass on that one myself but they seem to have pictures in their ports. If I'm paying it all depends on the model and our level of rapport and how well the images came out.
I'm planning on doing an art show this year and I'm going to give one model a large canvas or metal print for being at the show and that was a TF shoot. So it all depends.
Photographer
Dan Brady
Posts: 610
Perth, Western Australia, Australia
Tell them to go fuck themselves.
Photographer
MCmodeling
Posts: 749
Sonora, California, US
I have a small budget so I give them images as well. If I had a bigger budget I wouldn't.
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 8463
Imperial, California, US
I always give the model a disk of the pics I keep.
Photographer
H A Z E
Posts: 82
London, England, United Kingdom
Photographer
Al Lock Photography
Posts: 17024
Bangkok, Bangkok, Thailand
If the model is paying me, she gets what we negotiate beforehand as part of the deal (I may be generous and provide more, but that is up to me).
If the model is on a paid job, she gets what the client allows her to get, on the client's timetable.
A few examples:
A few months ago, I shot a print calendar (my avatar comes from it). The images are NOT available to the models, nor can I post them, until the month they are on starts. Some other outtake images were made available.
Also a month ago, I shot an online catalog for a match-making service. They have not published any of the images on their website to date and until they do, none of the images from that shoot that are similar are available.
I've shot a number of online fashion catalogs, where the only access the model has to the images is to link to the online catalog. Others have allowed for the models to be provided the images used in the catalog because they are branded.
It's all about what is agreed up front.
Photographer
YZF Jeff
Posts: 256
Statesboro, Georgia, US
I may be a bit of an odd duck but IF a photographer is paying for a shoot, the amount of images is based upon a loose equation of amount of poses said model can pull off and amount of outfits said model brought and changed into.
i am far too new to the game to be rude but the more looks, outfits, and poses, the more photos a model will receive. i'm not a big fan of ten variants of the same outfit, look, and pose. there is an obvious point where quality overcomes quantity. and in my opinion, a model worth her salt should understand that as well.
Photographer
Mike Collins
Posts: 2880
Orlando, Florida, US
It's quite simple really. If you are paying the model, that is her job. To model. You pay her/his services. Now, if they ask you, someone whose job is to create images and sell them, that they would like a print from the session, simply quote them YOUR rates for images.
So if they quote say $100 an hour, then you say you charge about $100 for the print(s) or images, then what your basically doing now is a TFP shoot since they will cancel each other out.
If its part of their deal from the get go, well, that's up to you whether or not their rate is worth your money AND your time AND your images.
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25319
Bath, England, United Kingdom
If you're paying then there should be no expectation of images as well, and any model who asks for them without also offering at least a discount on her rates is playing you for a fool. If course, may photographers who pay models do also give them a few images as a 'thank you' but any serious professional model will understand that this is very much a bonus rather than a right. Just my $0.02 Ciao Stefano www.stefanobrunesci.com
Photographer
Kent Art Photography
Posts: 3588
Ashford, England, United Kingdom
How much will it cost you to provide pics for the model? Next to nothing.
How much will it enhance your reputation, bring you more business, or get your name out there? Probably not much, but you never know. And there are more expensive ways of advertising which will probably be less effective.
Is it going to hurt you or harm your reputation? No, of course not.
Photographer
Aaron - photographer
Posts: 35
Falls Church, Virginia, US
Kent Art Photography wrote:
How much will it cost you to provide pics for the model? Next to nothing. See... therein lies part of the problem. It take 15... 30min... even an hour or more to edit an image at times. Time is valuable. And to say it cost nothing ro provide images is short sighted.
Photographer
Kent Art Photography
Posts: 3588
Ashford, England, United Kingdom
aaron lassman wrote:
See... therein lies part of the problem. It take 15... 30min... even an hour or more to edit an image at times. Time is valuable. And to say it cost nothing ro provide images is short sighted. But aren't you editing them anyway?
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5620
London, England, United Kingdom
Kent Art Photography wrote:
But aren't you editing them anyway? It's like studio hire and equipment, it only appears when you need an excuse not to pay a model. Obviously if you pay a model you don't need studios, equipment or editing.
Photographer
Mcary
Posts: 1803
Fredericksburg, Virginia, US
Providing images as part of the models compensation is only bad business if and this is a big if, you're a professional photographer that makes their living or gets a large share of their income from model photography. Since that's not the case for the majority of us here, that do this as a hobby or as an artistic outlet, providing images is simply a way to reduce the amount of money that we pay to a model that might not be willing to work with us on strait trade basis.
*"Model photography" Photography that requires the use of models or people, such as fashion, life style or glamor.
Photographer
D-Light
Posts: 629
Newcastle, Limerick, Ireland
DavidL wrote:
We are all entitled to our own approach, and I will not prolong this, but unlike buying a car, usually, photographing a llama is an artistic collaboration. And pretty much, it costs nothing to share the product. So, if it makes the llama pleased, why not? It could cost quiet a lot if your client disapproves of you giving the llama images or where she posts them. To me, it's the llama looking to get paid twice for the same job.
When I pay a llama it's never part of the deal that she will get images as well. If she has been particularly good or co-operative I may give some low res copies of images I didn't supply to the client, with my logo on them.
Photographer
D-Light
Posts: 629
Newcastle, Limerick, Ireland
JadeDRed wrote:
It's like studio hire and equipment, it only appears when you need an excuse not to pay a model. Obviously if you pay a model you don't need studios, equipment or editing. This completely misses the point, we are discussing the case of a model already paid for the shoot, asking for images. If you shoot TF, of course you get images.
If the photographers who pay you don't need studios, equipment or editing, you are obviously working with some very special photographers. On the other hand, if you're working with guys or girls who are using excuses for not paying you, you need to rethink who you're working with.
Photographer
Photo Bill
Posts: 275
Chaska, Minnesota, US
DavidL wrote:
We are all entitled to our own approach, and I will not prolong this, but unlike buying a car, usually, photographing a model is an artistic collaboration. And pretty much, it costs nothing to share the product. So, if it makes the model pleased, why not? I completely agree!
Photographer
imcFOTO
Posts: 581
Bothell, Washington, US
aaron lassman wrote:
I did a search and didn't see anything in the archives. I find it hard to believe this topic hasn't come up before... or perhaps i didn't use the correct search terms. Or, if my wife is correct, my "man eyes" failed me again.
Anyway... I am throwing this out there because i'm at odds with this particular subject and would like some different perspectives. I have been contacted from time to time by a llama soliciting me to pay her for a shoot then provide her images for her portfolio, which i am loath to do. But on the other hand, i have contacted llamas, paid them AND given them images. Of course, i've had the odd llama or two want 20 or 30 edited images after i've already paid and given them a few.
But i'm curious as to how others manage this. And i would love to hear from a llama's perspective as well... When you pay a llama for a shoot (solicited by either party), do you provide images? If so, how many? Do you put conditions on their usage? I've heard many variations of this question and I think the best answer is to be very clear upfront what the choices are. If you are paying a llama, the fee is something negotiated (or perhaps you are just paying the rate they set) but the agreement should go beyond just the money.
Maybe you should state that for a paid shoot you will provide x number (say 4) edited shots as a courtesy. Or you will be willing to do a reduced fee and provide a larger number of shots. If the llama wants to be able to choose her own shots and have you edit 20 or 30 shots - then you should really say no - or negotiate the fee down a lot.
Likewise usage rights should be spelled out. For TFCD shoots, my agreement form states non-commercial use (for both of us). But if I'm paying, I expect full rights (commercial) and will get a llama release.
There's no way I'd pay a llama, give her lots of edited shots and allow her to use them commercially - well not unless she was a totally gorgeous celebrity!
Photographer
imcFOTO
Posts: 581
Bothell, Washington, US
Kent Art Photography wrote:
How much will it cost you to provide pics for the model? Next to nothing.
How much will it enhance your reputation, bring you more business, or get your name out there? Probably not much, but you never know. And there are more expensive ways of advertising which will probably be less effective.
Is it going to hurt you or harm your reputation? No, of course not. That isn't the point though. In a trade shoot, I entirely agree that you should give copies of everything you edit - I always provide 20-30 full edits - usually at least half will be chosen by the model herself.
But if you always give away services for free - or in this case, pay someone and then give your work away, your skill is really not being valued (by yourself). If my work is so good that the model wants lots of edits - surely I should either being doing a trade, or getting a big discount.
I'm all in favor of the networking aspect and getting your photos seen - but if you ever want to be seen as a professional, you have to start by realizing that you don't do work for free.
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