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Model
Eva Marx
Posts: 40
West Hollywood, California, US


I'm not sure if this topic has been covered, but if it has, I would love to be pointed in that direction. smile

Is it unprofessional to request compensation for gas if a TF/unpaid shoot is really far from where the model lives?

The reason I ask is because I don't have a very large income at the moment and I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee. That thing sucks up a lot of gas, and I don't have the budget to be driving all over SoCal for TF shoots.

There have been times where I've already turned down opportunities to work with photographers on TF shoots because the location was too far away and I didn't have the gas to make that distance.
Mar 11 13 12:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SPV Photo
Posts: 767
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Anybody can ask for anything. Whatever is agreed upon between the two parties is what is acceptable.
Mar 11 13 12:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jordon Lynn
Posts: 37
Niantic, Illinois, US


SPV Photo wrote:
Anybody can ask for anything. Whatever is agreed upon between the two parties is what is acceptable.

exactly!

Mar 11 13 01:00 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Daggett
Posts: 80
Carmel, Indiana, US


TF generally means trade for equal value.  So if the photographer is paying for the studio, and driving to the shoot, plus gear, then if your experience and look is worth more than what the photog is bringing to the table then sure ask.  You can ask for gas in lieu or prints, gas and prints, money and prints, money, gas and prints. 

The photog and you will determine what is fair for each of you.  If you are "losing money" meaning not getting a fair amount of compensation, i.e. prints, gas or money, then don't do it.

Asking is fine, it's a negotiation after all.
Mar 11 13 01:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
C h a r l e s D
Posts: 9,304
Los Angeles, California, US


Eva Marx wrote:
Is it unprofessional to request compensation for gas if a TF/unpaid shoot is really far from where the model lives?

If you agreed to do a TF shoot, THEN ask for gas money, yes, it's not a good idea.  I'd be pissed.  If you want gas money, ask for money before you agree on anything. 
After the fact, very unprofessional.

On your second message, mention you need gas money.

Mar 11 13 01:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Daggett
Posts: 80
Carmel, Indiana, US


C h a r l e s  D wrote:

If you agreed to do a TF shoot, THEN ask for gas money, yes, it's not a good idea.  I'd be pissed.  If you want gas money, ask for money before you agree on anything. 
After the fact, very unprofessional.

On your second message, mention you need gas money.

Agree.  Usually TF, the negotiation is how many images, what size, water marked or not? Edited? Etc.  at this point asking for money would irritate me as well.  If you need money, ask for it before you agree to doing it TF. 

GOOD CATCH

Mar 11 13 01:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Double Exposure
Posts: 58
Victorville, California, US


I am not offended by models asking for gas money if they travel for a trade shoot I want to shoot. I think it is in the approach - if i ask for tf and you ask for gas money up front I understand and will pay or not depending on the shoot/content/model etc. However, if we plan a shoot our several weeks and the day before or day of shoot you spring it on me I am less likely to pay and more likely to get irritated by the request.  Lastly if you contact me and say you need x y or z and want to shoot it tf but you need to be paid it is another thing altogether.

For me I just like to know as much as possible ahead of time just as I assume models do. I don't spring surprises at zero hour.
Mar 11 13 01:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
eos3_300
Posts: 1,458
Brooklyn, New York, US


I have chipped in for Gas $$$ a few times
But when you pull up in a late model Gianormious gas gluzzer
I might re-think my offer
Mar 11 13 01:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brett Hunt
Posts: 1,452
Washington Court House, Ohio, US


ask in negoiations and if agreed it is good to go,But agree time for print then later on add gas or anything else it  is like not living up to your end of the bargin. Exsample we agree to do a tf/cd shoot then a day before the shoot I say I need you to chip in on studio rental would you think that is ok?
Mar 11 13 01:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Brett Hunt
Posts: 1,452
Washington Court House, Ohio, US


eos3_300 wrote:
I have chipped in for Gas $$$ a few times
But when you pull up in a late model Gianormious gas gluzzer
I might re-think my offer

this is why I ask how much gas and how far they are driving. If I say I will give  20 and you pull in with a tank that gets 2 miles to the gallon it doesn't mater what I pay. also if they are only driving a couple miles I probably will not give them 20

Mar 11 13 01:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,262
Salem, Oregon, US


just depends on how badly the photographer wants to work with you. if the option is to decline or ask for gas money i'd say ask and let them decide.

i've had models come from long distances and have paid gas money at times. i've also given rides.
Mar 11 13 01:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,911
Buena Park, California, US


Instead of asking for gas money...

"I appreciate your interest in working with me.  My half-day rate is $20 plus x-amount of finished photos. Full day rate is $30."

This helps eliminate penny pinching.  How MPG does your car get? what's the current fuel rate, blah blah blah.
Mar 11 13 01:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,262
Salem, Oregon, US


back when i gave gas money it was usually $30. so effectively it became a paid shoot with a rate of $15/hour.

it's a negotiation between a model and photographer. whatever they can come up with that's mutually agreeable will allow the shoot to proceed.

Christopher Hartman wrote:
Instead of asking for gas money...

"I appreciate your interest in working with me.  My half-day rate is $20 plus x-amount of finished photos. Full day rate is $30."

Mar 11 13 01:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 17,902
Albany, New York, US


Eva Marx wrote:
Is it unprofessional to request compensation for gas if a TF/unpaid shoot is really far from where the model lives?

You can ask but it doesn't mean you'll actually get it.

There could also be consequences too that could receive blowback & cause you to lose the assignment. Like some believe that if its a TF* shoot everyone involved (whether its the photographer or MUA or model or the stylist...etc) should eat the cost of doing business. While others may find the costs (whatever they may be for the individual) a reasonable request.

Whatever route you go, just be up-front about it. The more lead-time notice you give about your own needs, the better.

Mar 11 13 01:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Nigel Penn
Posts: 2
Ossett, England, United Kingdom


As a photographer i would prefer everything to be sorted on the first instance, TF shoots are great for photographers and llamas alike. As stated previously it is a case of negotiating between the two parties of what is expected from each other at the outset. I would be miffed off if i was asked the day before for some form of payment. I do offer to collect and drop my TF llamas off as to avoid travel expences for the llama.
Mar 11 13 02:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Nina Carter
Posts: 129
London, England, United Kingdom


Personally i think it's pointless . trade shoots for me have to
be majorly worthwhile for me to do  and anyone that good i wouldn't ask
for "gas money" from .

Iv'e actually been offered travel money in the past and refused
it- i budget from the money i get from paid shoots so can
take gas money  if i so wish to trade with someone
out of that .

better pictures have always got me more work ]
which is more than worthwhile .

then again im not driving the car your driving big_smile
Mar 11 13 02:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DAN CRUIKSHANK
Posts: 1,786
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


TF for me means no $ exchanged in either direction for anything.
Mar 11 13 02:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Images By Joseph
Posts: 868
Naperville, Illinois, US


Make this known VERY early on. Then the photographer knows in advance and can decide to pay or not
Mar 11 13 02:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ME_
Posts: 3,133
Atlanta, Georgia, US


If someone asked me for gas money, I would offer to go to him and he could pay me for gas instead of the other way around.

Watch how fast gas money suddenly becomes unimportant or "too much" to pay.

----------

Clearly there are others who might not mind paying for gas money but not me. Get here or don't; I have expenses too and can't cover yours.

Also I have found that those who ask for gas money actually ask for and expect to be given far more than what the gas actually costs. I.e., nobody asks for the cost of their actual gas; they ask for $20 or $30 or $50. Even when $20 could pay for 200 miles and they are driving 30.

So, no. But if you are going to ask, definitely do it at the beginning. Nobody likes some condition being sprung on them at the last minute.
Mar 11 13 02:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JaneyGarnet
Posts: 85
Portland, Oregon, US


"Any gentleman with the slightest chic will give a girl a fifty dollar bill for the powder room."

Holly Golightly, part-time photographic model
Mar 11 13 04:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,825
Santa Ana, California, US


Eva Marx wrote:
I'm not sure if this topic has been covered, but if it has, I would love to be pointed in that direction. smile

Is it unprofessional to request compensation for gas if a TF/unpaid shoot is really far from where the model lives?

The reason I ask is because I don't have a very large income at the moment and I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee. That thing sucks up a lot of gas, and I don't have the budget to be driving all over SoCal for TF shoots.

There have been times where I've already turned down opportunities to work with photographers on TF shoots because the location was too far away and I didn't have the gas to make that distance.

Why in a collaboration do you feel it's the other side's responsibility to additionally compensate you?
It sounds like you purchased more automobile than you can afford. Maybe a good used moped would be easier for you to handle financially.

Mar 11 13 04:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Commercial Works Photo
Posts: 244
Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, US


If you cannot afford to be a model, don't model.  Part of being a model is being able to get to where the photographs are being made.  The other part is being able to do more than duckface once you get there.  To me, a model asking for gas money to get to a shoot is like asking your new employer for gas money so you can get to work.
Mar 11 13 04:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,485
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Michael Daggett wrote:
TF generally means trade for equal value.  So if the photographer is paying for the studio, and driving to the shoot, plus gear...

Not this again, seriously nobody gives a crap how much a photographer spends in equipment.  That being said, nobody cares how much models spend to maintain themselves.

Everybody has a cost of doing business and nobody else cares what it is.  If its a trade shoot then it's a trade by both parties.

Mar 11 13 04:20 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 2,510
Belmont, California, US


Eva Marx wrote:
Is it unprofessional to request compensation for gas if a TF/unpaid shoot is really far from where the model lives?

Not in the least! In fact the strictest definition of a professional in any industry is to perform services for money, so I'd say you're being more professional by asking.

Mar 11 13 04:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Daggett
Posts: 80
Carmel, Indiana, US


AJScalzitti wrote:

Not this again, seriously nobody gives a crap how much a photographer spends in equipment.  That being said, nobody cares how much models spend to maintain themselves.

Everybody has a cost of doing business and nobody else cares what it is.  If its a trade shoot then it's a trade by both parties.

You missed my point.  Not every photographers "time" is worth the same. My gear, and studio help determine how much my time is worth, for trade purposes.  A model with an extensive wardrobe, experience, in demand look, fit, etc, could value their time more than a model with no wardrobe, experience etc.. 

Agree or not, The cost of doing business needs to be factored in for both parties to determine if the trade is fair.  If you don't know how much being there for 2 hours costs you, then how do you know if the trade is adequate?

Mar 11 13 06:26 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,995
New York, New York, US


One of the great things about New York is that with our public transportation system you can get to almost anyplace in six counties for little, if anything, more than $5.00.  I feel for the people who depend on cars.

I call it pity pay, as in "Take pity on me, I'm just a poor little college student."  My response is generally that I can't push Social Security that far.

Sure, ask as part of the initial negotiations, but, please, no last minute surprises.  Sometimes it's best to just say, "Sorry, I can't."
Mar 11 13 06:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Eva Marx wrote:
I don't have the budget to be driving all over SoCal for TF shoots.

Exactly how little are the images worth to you? hmm

If they're not worth even a half a tank of gas then maybe you need to work with better photographers.


Michael Daggett wrote:
My gear, and studio help determine how much my time is worth, for trade purposes.

No. Just no.

Your time and images are worth whatever somebody is willing to pay for them. If your images aren't good enough to inspire a model to pay $20 for a few gallons of gas then maybe you need to up your own game...




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Mar 11 13 06:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJScalzitti
Posts: 12,485
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Michael Daggett wrote:
You missed my point.  Not every photographers "time" is worth the same. My gear, and studio help determine how much my time is worth, for trade purposes.  A model with an extensive wardrobe, experience, in demand look, fit, etc, could value their time more than a model with no wardrobe, experience etc.. 

Agree or not, The cost of doing business needs to be factored in for both parties to determine if the trade is fair.  If you don't know how much being there for 2 hours costs you, then how do you know if the trade is adequate?

As Michael and I were discussing out of the forum about this I did want to share one more point for out OP:

If a model tells me $20 in gas is the deciding factor for shooting then I would immediately know they are not invested in the shoot.  I would suspect if anything remotely more interesting came up they will cancel or flake; like sleeping in even.

I would say thanks but no thanks and move on to the next model in my list.  Now this may not be you, but we all pay for the crimes of others and I am sure I am not alone in my assessment.

Mar 11 13 06:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Michael Daggett
Posts: 80
Carmel, Indiana, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:

Eva Marx wrote:
I don't have the budget to be driving all over SoCal for TF shoots.

Exactly how little are the images worth to you? hmm

If they're not worth even a half a tank of gas then maybe you need to work with better photographers.



No. Just no.

Your time and images are worth whatever somebody is willing to pay for them. If your images aren't good enough to inspire a model to pay $20 for a few gallons of gas then maybe you need to up your own game...




Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

I'm pretty sure my images won't get created without my gear.  So yes, that helps determine The price I'm willing to work for.  It isn't the ONLY factor, nor is it a large factor, but it absolutely does factor in.  I can charge whatever I feel I'm worth, and let the industry determine if I'm priced accordingly, then adjust from there.

If a day one model contacted me and asked for TF, I'd likely decline, since my time would likely be worth more and it would be difficult to agree on a equitable trade. (of course there are exceptions)

Mar 11 13 06:55 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Strength Studios
Posts: 336
West Hazleton, Pennsylvania, US


As nice as all the absolutes and platitudes are...especially about models not .being invested if they don't have gas money... I, for one, would prefer that a model call and tell me that they want to shoot but don't have money for gas, giving me the option to rectify the situation or not.

I personally understand that things don't  always workout as planned, especially with finances, and what seemed like no big deal a few weeks ago, might be an issue now. $20 for gas is a big deal when you are trying to cover the rent.

So, for me, a request for gas money isn't an insult, or an indication of a models commitment, it is an honest attempt for a model to explain a situation. If I have invested any time at all, or simply have been looking forward to the shoot, I would rather kick in for gas than to miss the shoot or lose a model. This works for me, but obviously not for everyone.
Mar 11 13 07:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Strength Studios
Posts: 336
West Hazleton, Pennsylvania, US


As nice as all the absolutes and platitudes are...especially about models not .being invested if they don't have gas money... I, for one, would prefer that a model call and tell me that they want to shoot but don't have money for gas, giving me the option to rectify the situation or not.

I personally understand that things don't  always workout as planned, especially with finances, and what seemed like no big deal a few weeks ago, might be an issue now. $20 for gas is a big deal when you are trying to cover the rent.

So, for me, a request for gas money isn't an insult, or an indication of a models commitment, it is an honest attempt for a model to explain a situation. If I have invested any time at all, or simply have been looking forward to the shoot, I would rather kick in for gas than to miss the shoot or lose a model. This works for me, but obviously not for everyone.
Mar 11 13 07:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Strength Studios
Posts: 336
West Hazleton, Pennsylvania, US


As nice as all the absolutes and platitudes are...especially about models not .being invested if they don't have gas money... I, for one, would prefer that a model call and tell me that they want to shoot but don't have money for gas, giving me the option to rectify the situation or not.

I personally understand that things don't  always workout as planned, especially with finances, and what seemed like no big deal a few weeks ago, might be an issue now. $20 for gas is a big deal when you are trying to cover the rent.

So, for me, a request for gas money isn't an insult, or an indication of a models commitment, it is an honest attempt for a model to explain a situation. If I have invested any time at all, or simply have been looking forward to the shoot, I would rather kick in for gas than to miss the shoot or lose a model. This works for me, but obviously not for everyone.
Mar 11 13 07:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
John Jebbia
Posts: 27,612
Phoenix, Arizona, US


-B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote:
Exactly how little are the images worth to you? hmm

If they're not worth even a half a tank of gas then maybe you need to work with better photographers.

I agree.. If the images you're about to receive aren't worth a tank of gas, then why bother?

You have your expenses, and so do we.

Mar 11 13 07:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Eva Marx
Posts: 40
West Hollywood, California, US


Thanks to all of those who provided POSITIVE feedback and actually gave great advice. smile It was very helpful.

To the rest of you, perhaps the "Newbie" forum isn't where you should lurk... It was a simple question, and you have definitely left an impression on me.

Once again, thanks to all for the responses! My question has been more than sated.
Mar 11 13 07:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Silver Mirage
Posts: 1,560
Plainview, Texas, US


No problem at all to ask - though as other say, bring it up early in the negotiations. It's a business deal, even if it is a trade, and no hard feelings for asking or negotiating.

If the photographer is too cheap, becomes offended or whatever that tells you something about the kind of person you're dealing with - and you may be glad to be out of the deal.

If a photographer has spent a ton of money on cameras and lenses, then is too broke/cheap to cover the cost of shooting that tells you something about their priorities. Of course, if a model is driving a new monster SUV and doesn't have money for gas that tells me something about them.

I'm sure other photographers do things differently, but I have a budget for portfolio development. That includes gas (mine or the models), studio/hotel rentals, clothes, prints and everything else. If  model asks for gas money I'll just plug that into the budget equation and decide if it makes sense to pay it or if I'm better off to move on to someone else.
Mar 11 13 08:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ME_
Posts: 3,133
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Silver Mirage wrote:
If a photographer has spent a ton of money on cameras and lenses, then is too broke/cheap to cover the cost of shooting that tells you something about their priorities.

Isn't it actually the person asking for gas money who is too broke/cheap to cover the cost of shooting?

Mar 11 13 08:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Image K
Posts: 23,365
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


Eva Marx wrote:
Thanks to all of those who provided POSITIVE feedback and actually gave great advice. smile It was very helpful.

To the rest of you, perhaps the "Newbie" forum isn't where you should lurk... It was a simple question, and you have definitely left an impression on me.

Once again, thanks to all for the responses! My question has been more than sated.

And with many newbies, the advice is usually only "positive" if it coincides with the advice that they wanted to hear.

You have left an impression of your own.

Mar 11 13 09:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Eva Marx wrote:
To the rest of you, perhaps the "Newbie" forum isn't where you should lurk... It was a simple question, and you have definitely left an impression on me.

Hopefully then, you won't make the mistake of demanding gas money and making a bad impression on photographers you would actually like to work with wink

The best way to approach this - if you're really so broke that you can't afford $20 for gas to get to shoots - is to put a note on your profile stating the same and saying that you would be very grateful for any contributions to your gas costs for shoots.

Then, if a photographer doesn't offer gas money and you really, really want to work with him/her, don't ask for or demand it, just say something like: "I'm really broke at the moment but really really want to shoot with you, so could we maybe schedule the shoot for a month or two in the future to give me time to save up for the gas to get to you?".

This kind of approach will likely result in an offer of a few $$ for gas from even the most hard-hearted photographer. If it doesn't, then do just that - save up and pay for the gas yourself. Nobody owes you gas money but if you approach the subject correctly you may get something most of the time and, more importantly, avoid giving offence to people you would benefit from working with.



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Mar 11 13 09:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Silver Mirage wrote:
I have a budget for portfolio development. That includes gas (mine or the models), studio/hotel rentals, clothes, prints and everything else. If  model asks for gas money I'll just plug that into the budget equation and decide if it makes sense to pay it or if I'm better off to move on to someone else.

Exactly.

However, the key point is that in a trade situation you're covering your own costs so, ideally, the model should at least cover her own as well.

Of course, exceptions can always be made but too many models seem to feel that demanding gas money at the last minute without any warning is somehow acceptable just because they're pretty and they're broke!

As with anything, models need to prioritise their spending. If a couple of coffees or a new tube of lip gloss is more important than gas to get to a shoot, that says something (not very favourable) about the value they place on those images  and on modelling in general.




Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Mar 11 13 09:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Flex Photography
Posts: 5,110
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada


My view of TF is that neither party is paid for shooting, and both are contributing their time & talents for the images. It is a sharing situation. If one party would be incurring an extra cost, (whichever party) then we would consider sharing equally in that cost. If one party has the cost of a distance to travel, it is not fair for the other party to cover that whole cost, either. That is not sharing. Each party could consider covering half the cost. Models who want their travel covered, should also be prepared to cover some costs if it is the photographer traveling to them! goose=gander

That said, I have never asked for travel compensation when I travel to a model for TF, and have only had them offer it twice.
Mar 11 13 10:05 pm  Link  Quote 
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