Well aren't you the benevolent one.    I stand by my statement.

I wonder if your attitude would be the same if it were you who had been the model and found, after the fact with no discussion the photographer had decided to sell the images...

I just wanted opinions about this .The problem is that other photographers have said that this isn't morally wrong and others have ..who is right ?I don't know.Morals and ethics are not easy to define.I've been to 9 different countries and they all have different sets of morals .And even here in the US each person has their own set of ethics and morals.Now what if I paid a model with money and she still demanded that she gets part of the profit ..what is the right thing to do then?I gave her permission to  profit from the photos of the shoot but she didn't want to do that and part of her compensation was to buy her dinner and a cd of the photos.She has been modeling for 18 years and she agreed to all of that .So you would think that a experienced model like her would not have agreed to any of that and would have wanted money for the shoot ..I don't know!I don't make money from my photography and probably will never .And  is she willing to help pay for me to upgrade my equipment ,pay for my time processing photos and other misc things that are needed to do photography..probably not !

KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:

Well aren't you the benevolent one.    I stand by my statement.

I wonder if your attitude would be the same if it were you who had been the model and found, after the fact with no discussion the photographer had decided to sell the images...

I've had other models have my photos of them for sale on their websites..gave them my blessing to do that and never had a problem .

Look. Forget all of that. If Dinner and the CD was the agreement, then that's your agreement. If people are judging your morals on that, that's a personal problem on their part. You don't need a lecture on that shit. The problem here is, you didn't have this down on paper. That's where your mistake was at and now you're trying to find others to agree with you. The other thing is, each State has a different law. Acknowledge this first and then go from there. The only thing that would help you to prevail is, pointing out that you pretty much gave the model a clone of the same works to do whatever she pleases. And I'm sure that if she can make some money off of the images, she would do it. Would she tell you? Hard to say. But the bottom line here is, you gave her an even exchange. Many photographer's wouldn't do that. That's like giving away your negatives. If nothing else, let this be a lesson learned. Have it in writing and signed.

I agree with what you say . I just wanted to get an opinion about the whole issue. But apparently grown adults are having a hard time discussing this in a mature way .

That's because many were trying to interject the moral code and judge you on that vs reading your post. That's where the thread took a turn in a different direction. You made it clear several times that you gave her the cd of all of the images, something that I'd wouldn't do. Not all of my images.

Yeah. Never do a shoot without a signed agreement. It's pretty simple to add your usual agreements on a release form. In the end, it's up to them to agree with it. And seeing that you give the models all of the pictures, that leads me to believe that you're flexible if they don't agree with your initial approach. But let them know before hand what your intentions and goals are. This will prevent headaches.

pretty sure you nailed it right there

I'm not offended .I just wanted this to be a mature discussion between  professional photographers and to get opinions about this.Photography isn't my job.I'm just trying to get to the point where I can use it to help upgrade my equipment .But what has really pissed me off is that nearly everyone one that has posted here are acting like little kids !This is not how grown ,mature and supposedly professional adults are supposed to act.We are here to help learn and support each other since photography is something that we all love to do .I just don't get why people are acting like this !!!

But the question is "what is the right thing to do ". So far there is no real consensus on it ..

he may or may have not given her what he says he did. We will never know. In stories like this and all other stories there are two sides. I didnt read page two of this thread, but we do know that people dont always tell the truth. What we do know is that by this story here, the model wants compensation, and he does not want to oblige any further. This simply means that he does not care at all about working with her again, because this damages their future relationships, and this also lets other models who may be reading this thread, know how he handles business. Hopefully, he learns from this, grows, and moves on.

If it's a TF shoot the model gets all the images .She took her time to do the shoot with me so I think that it's only fair that they get all the images .An I've also gave most of the images to models that I paid to do the shoot with.

It's not like I actually make any money from photography..If a model is going to demand something from me ,then I really don't see any reason to work with them .How would you like it if a photographer demanded something from you ..you wouldn't like it I'm assuming !

Speculation isn't really making your point. Maybe and may he didn't do it. But let's just say that he did give her the trade. Does this means that he doesn't care? No it doesn't. It's so easy to get our emotions caught up in the equation where we think that someone has been taken advantage of. Again, if he's telling the truth, giving the model a copy of all of the images isn't a bad thing at all. That's like giving away your negatives. Especially if you're allowing the model the flexibility to do whatever she/he wants with them without limits.

If there's a lesson to be learned, get it down in writing and sign. I can't judge him off of speculation, but what has been posted.

hey partner. You are changing your story around a bit I think. Maybe I misread. Ill be back. Its always a good thing to have long standing working relationships if possible. If you have worked with someone more than once, it shows you either A) live near each other and or B) could get along.



edit: just reread your op. So the model is wanting money that isnt there? As in you didnt actually SELL any prints yet? I thought this was about prints that you sold that you let her know about somehow? Why do you think this came up in her mind anyways?

Im not meaning to say one did or didnt do this. If he did give her a copy of all of the images, that is a complete separate issue aside from the one we are talking about and perhaps he will revue his policy on that. We learn as we go.

I have had a few people I have worked with do this at different skill levels. I was kind of shocked. Especially at one of them. He has me go through and pick out which images I like, then give him the numbers that way. I have worked with him twice and am planning a third. Whatever works for whomever I guess. I wouldnt trust people with all images I shot to not go and fuck with them, though. I would ask for my name to be removed.

Right. But seeing that you've brought this up, I had to comment on that. There are reasons why we say what we say vs just saying it for the sake of saying it. That said, if he gave her all the images on a cd, what else is there to talk about? The rest of this reads more like a moral judgement. Which is why I'd pointed out that all of the images on a cd is a damn good trade where I don't see it as a complete separate issue. Not trusting others with your images. As I'd pointed out myself, neither do I. But we're not him. His direction on that is irrelevant.

I haven't changed my story.I also haven't sold any prints .I do give the models permission to use the pics for whatever they need to use them for.I don't know why she even wanted money from the sale of a print if it actually did sell.She just demanded that if she didn't get some of the money then I can't sell any of the prints .She is a model with 18 years experience and you would think that she would have asked for money instead of being compensated with a cd and dinner .

To be frank, this is a circular conversation. The main bottom line here is get it in writing. Whatever the agreement is.

If you didn't sell any prints, how and WHEN did the subject come up with the model?

13 pages of arguing and you have not even sold a print yet???
The horse goes FIRST then the cart...
Spend less time talking a big game, spend more time shooting and trying to sell.


For what it is worth, I tell models when I sell a print that money goes into paying rent on the studio. No complaints yet.

Probably when he told her he was happy with the photos and wanted to try to sell some prints.

A bunch of us are wondering how the model found out of your desire to sell your prints after apparently you already told her you wanted to sell them?  The scenario you are recounting doesn't really make sense.


there are a number of internet photographers that like to run bait and switches where what they say what the tfp photos they use will be used for.  In the negotiation stages of the tfp shoot there is talk of "lets just have fun, build our portfolios,  etc" and then the photos come back and the photographer puts them on a stock site, wants to run them as a set on a girl next door nudie site, sell them en masse as prints on Ebay, etc.Sure the model gets a CD but she (and it's mostly she's) feels stiffed that what the idea of the TFP shoot was about.

YOUR problem is you have nothing in writing so you have a classic he said/she said.   Who knows what the agreement really was.  What you said, she said, what she heard, you heard, who knows???

I've asked you several times and you've never answered.

Do you really believe in yourself and your work, that your work is worthy of money?

If you really do, then either:

1. go back to the model and offer to actually pay her what you would have instead of tfp, let's say, $25/hr for 4 hours work for $100 total and in turn get a written agreement signed.  That way you've basically paid twice but you've alleviated any more potential drama and in essence paid for your mistake in not getting things in writing.

or

2. you hire a new model and redo the shoot and prior to even taking the lens cap off your camera, have the agreement/contract signed.


Whining that internet people are being mean to you suggests to me that maybe you think that this shoot was a happy accident that you were spraying and praying and that you aren't sure you can come up with other shots that are sellable. 




This issue isn't just a legal one, it's about what's in your head in regards to both your work and also how you conduct yourself as a photographer and quite frankly your reputation.

Lots of "photographers" on MM like to proclaim they are "art" photographers when in fact I'd suggest there is nothing artful to either their work, approach, attitude or output.

But if you truly want to be an "art" photographer and work with the very small but important cadre of good to excellent art models on this site, a word of advice, your reputation IS everything.   

Learn from this experience and move on.

If you really believe in your ability as a photographer that is.

Selling art and photography has very little to do with ability and camera skills...
I know photographers that are hundreds of times better then I am, yet I'm doing more shows/sales/press then they have in their 20+ year "art photography careers"

Even with that, 80+% of my income comes from private commissions not gallery sales.

One huge issue with the fight over money comes from so many photographers bragging about how much they make with art sales, they promise the model a cut of the cash and it never comes...because nothing was never sold to begin with...

All smoke and mirrors...

I asked this same thing before. Maybe the photographer is hard of reading AND hearing, for his convo with the model didnt go so well either.

several things.

we probably all know photographers whose vision and execution exceeds ours 1000 fold but they sell less or are less well known than someone who is a good business person, schmoozer, ass kisser or whatever.  It's the way the world works.  Think Thomas Kinkade in the painting world and you get my drift.

But my point about believing in yourself as a photographer still stands.  Not really in regards to sales, because that quite frankly goes into the area of marketing and business, but I'm referring to how you think of yourself and your work and from that, how you conduct yourself with others.

If you are operating from a sense you know what you want, you know how to do it, you believe (in between doubting) that what images you are producing is something you NEED to do, then you let drama like this fall to the wayside and just MOVE on and make new images or paintings or whatever that you are compelled to do.

And this is why I'd pointed out that his arguments on here are circular ones. Move on, learn your lesson and make it happen.

Interest is very limited ..I lose money actually .I don't offer every copy for sale .Only the ones that I think are good enough .

And you know this to be the law where? Can you provide a link to it? That applies to the OP's location, The Commonwealth of Virginia, please.